That's a very sane take and a good attitude to have. However, an advanced camera like this is pretty well a figleaf if behind it there are few dealers and an atrophying lens and accessories catalogue. For example, why should someone drop a lot of cash on a high-end Pentax camera if the only advanced/semi-pro f2.8 Pentax zoom at the general end is the 16-50mm which has acquired a dubious rep because of alleged SDM and focusing problems? Enough of a rep, anyway, to cause a lot of people to steer well clear, I suspect. Camera bodies are only half the story. I'm hoping that over the next few months Pentax will provide the full story even if the story is, as you say, that they see their main ground as the k-x arena.
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Pentax need something big
- Thread starter KL Matt
- Start date
CANIKONTAXIAN
Leading Member
I think 645D was brought to market to clear the existing inventory of 645 and 6x7 lenses Hoya bought when they took over Pentax. Right before 645D was announced there were some 16 medium format lenses for sale at B&H. Now there is 4. One is 645. None are autofocus.
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/search?ci=467&N=4289357685+4291284238
So if 645D hits US market there won't be any new old stock lenses left. So one will either buy used 645 glass or... wait for Vietnam to tool up and make newer non aperture ring at lensmount, digitally optimized lenses with SDM drive.
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/search?ci=467&N=4289357685+4291284238
So if 645D hits US market there won't be any new old stock lenses left. So one will either buy used 645 glass or... wait for Vietnam to tool up and make newer non aperture ring at lensmount, digitally optimized lenses with SDM drive.
i just jumped ship from sony to pentax.
my main reasons were the da limited primes.
pentax's lenses are completely unique. i don't know why you'd bother going mirrorless for small lenses when pentax has nicely demonstrated that you can have both the mirror and small lenses. i wouldn't want a mirrorless camera because a wide-aperture telephoto wouldn't balance on it nicely. i don't want to go full-frame because i don't need it, either from an iq perspective or a shallow depth of field perspective, and the lens weight then picks up very considerably from the da limiteds.
but there were other things. focus calibration on the k7, which no aps-c sony's have. auto iso in manual mode, which no sony's have. access to a new 200/2.8, which sony doesn't have. a tight integration with m42. in sony land, you need to buy chipped adapters to get your camera to meter or stabilise and m42 lens. i had 5 of these adapters, 3 of them broke. pentax offers interchangeable focusing screens for the k7. i'd have to send my sony into a sony service centre to get my focusing screen changed. stabilised k-mount legacy glass.
if you go to any forum on this website, there are many people complaining about their system.
my main reasons were the da limited primes.
pentax's lenses are completely unique. i don't know why you'd bother going mirrorless for small lenses when pentax has nicely demonstrated that you can have both the mirror and small lenses. i wouldn't want a mirrorless camera because a wide-aperture telephoto wouldn't balance on it nicely. i don't want to go full-frame because i don't need it, either from an iq perspective or a shallow depth of field perspective, and the lens weight then picks up very considerably from the da limiteds.
but there were other things. focus calibration on the k7, which no aps-c sony's have. auto iso in manual mode, which no sony's have. access to a new 200/2.8, which sony doesn't have. a tight integration with m42. in sony land, you need to buy chipped adapters to get your camera to meter or stabilise and m42 lens. i had 5 of these adapters, 3 of them broke. pentax offers interchangeable focusing screens for the k7. i'd have to send my sony into a sony service centre to get my focusing screen changed. stabilised k-mount legacy glass.
if you go to any forum on this website, there are many people complaining about their system.
I already cast my bet here:
http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1036&message=35904506
and that was before the K-7 firmware upgrade so I guess this is one more element to support my theory. The new two models will complement the current cameras not replace them and there is enough space for four clearly defined models in the APS-C range. Pentax will use against canisonykon their worst weakness (which paradoxically is their main strength when not counteracted against). All three companies have a too wide range of cameras (including discontinued models) which they position artificially on the market. Let me explain a bit: canikon entry levels are neutered to the max in order to protect intermediate models which in turn are devoid of some features to protect the semipro range. And the price levels are defined so on every level there is a significant margin. Example in case Nikon: their end of life D90 at very low price now eats away the market share from both D5000 and also many people with older Nikons will upgrade for cheap to D90 instead of waiting for its successor because it's too good of the deal. When the D400 will come on the market D300S will also plunge and cut into the margins from D90 successor. And so on ...
Now imagine a Pentax range with two distinct classes: one is clearly entry level / amateurs and the second is advanced amateurs / semipro. Those two classes are very cleanly separated by build quality and controls because they adress a certain type of users not fish for every single soul. And those two classes get a new cameras every 7-8 months (i.e. this fall 2 new cameras, the next spring, early summer K-7 and K-x are upgraded and so on). Hoya always said they aim for 10% market share and I think they can make it there in 2011.
K-x will probably be discounted and will fight @ 400USD with D3000 and 1000D - older, inferior cameras. Yes there will be 3100 and 2000D soon but not at 400 USD for sure.
K-(another letter from the last third of the alphabet) I see it sharing the sensor with K-x (making sure that Pentax gets more discounts for volumes bought) and there are plenty of ways to differentiate it from the K-x even without adding weather sealing, pentaprism or better direct controls. Among others they can:
Both those two cameras will share DA L lenses for cheap and light package and the upper price will be surprisingly low.
K-7 will live for another half a year probably and after that I see it updated with a state of the art Sony sensor in the 14Mp range and relegated to fight D90 and Canon 60D in the 1000 USD price bracket. It will be most likely at very least ahead those two because of the complete weather sealing and 100% field of view prism. Also smaller and lighter I suppose.
K-5 will take the 7D and Nikon D400 head on and for those skeptical I suggest the too soon forgotten lesson of the K-m to K-x transformation. In 12 months Pentax turned a camera with poor high ISO, poor jpeg engine and so on in one of the leaders in class for fps, high ISO, superb jpegs, LV and movie mode. I cannot get into details but this camera will kick serious a$$ and will shatter some prejudice linked to Pentax in the digital age.
Radu
http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1036&message=35904506
and that was before the K-7 firmware upgrade so I guess this is one more element to support my theory. The new two models will complement the current cameras not replace them and there is enough space for four clearly defined models in the APS-C range. Pentax will use against canisonykon their worst weakness (which paradoxically is their main strength when not counteracted against). All three companies have a too wide range of cameras (including discontinued models) which they position artificially on the market. Let me explain a bit: canikon entry levels are neutered to the max in order to protect intermediate models which in turn are devoid of some features to protect the semipro range. And the price levels are defined so on every level there is a significant margin. Example in case Nikon: their end of life D90 at very low price now eats away the market share from both D5000 and also many people with older Nikons will upgrade for cheap to D90 instead of waiting for its successor because it's too good of the deal. When the D400 will come on the market D300S will also plunge and cut into the margins from D90 successor. And so on ...
Now imagine a Pentax range with two distinct classes: one is clearly entry level / amateurs and the second is advanced amateurs / semipro. Those two classes are very cleanly separated by build quality and controls because they adress a certain type of users not fish for every single soul. And those two classes get a new cameras every 7-8 months (i.e. this fall 2 new cameras, the next spring, early summer K-7 and K-x are upgraded and so on). Hoya always said they aim for 10% market share and I think they can make it there in 2011.
K-x will probably be discounted and will fight @ 400USD with D3000 and 1000D - older, inferior cameras. Yes there will be 3100 and 2000D soon but not at 400 USD for sure.
K-(another letter from the last third of the alphabet) I see it sharing the sensor with K-x (making sure that Pentax gets more discounts for volumes bought) and there are plenty of ways to differentiate it from the K-x even without adding weather sealing, pentaprism or better direct controls. Among others they can:
- put a larger and/or higher resolution and/or tiltable LCD
- make it possible to attach a grip
- replace AAs with LiIon (and maybe providing AA capability in the grip like in K-7)
- put AF indicators in OVF
- install a new AF system
- increase the fps.
- improved LV and video
- more things for sure.
Both those two cameras will share DA L lenses for cheap and light package and the upper price will be surprisingly low.
K-7 will live for another half a year probably and after that I see it updated with a state of the art Sony sensor in the 14Mp range and relegated to fight D90 and Canon 60D in the 1000 USD price bracket. It will be most likely at very least ahead those two because of the complete weather sealing and 100% field of view prism. Also smaller and lighter I suppose.
K-5 will take the 7D and Nikon D400 head on and for those skeptical I suggest the too soon forgotten lesson of the K-m to K-x transformation. In 12 months Pentax turned a camera with poor high ISO, poor jpeg engine and so on in one of the leaders in class for fps, high ISO, superb jpegs, LV and movie mode. I cannot get into details but this camera will kick serious a$$ and will shatter some prejudice linked to Pentax in the digital age.
Radu
CANIKONTAXIAN
Leading Member
Many great predictions Radu.
7 weeks till Photokina 2010.
Couple observations:
Nikon System is not neutered if one starts with cameras like D300s or D700.
Sure, its more money to start, but you buy one camera and you're done for years.
With D300s or D700 you've got the keys to drive plentiful pro caliber glass made from 1977 till now.
Camera companies rely on consumers buying several cheaper cameras over time.
My first three Pentax dslrs cost me more than one D700.
For me High ISO advantage using D700 neuters the Shake Reduction body Pentax offers.
Pentax is outdoorsman brand, yet their #1 selling K-x is not weather sealed.
Limited lenses are not weathersealed.
Old K-Mount and Screw Mount lenses are not weathersealed.
Should be a fun Photokina for me to watch from a distance.
I hope Pentax has lots of new goodies to offer up in seven weeks to stem the flow of those who are leaving, jumping ship, cashing out...
7 weeks till Photokina 2010.
Couple observations:
Nikon System is not neutered if one starts with cameras like D300s or D700.
Sure, its more money to start, but you buy one camera and you're done for years.
With D300s or D700 you've got the keys to drive plentiful pro caliber glass made from 1977 till now.
Camera companies rely on consumers buying several cheaper cameras over time.
My first three Pentax dslrs cost me more than one D700.
For me High ISO advantage using D700 neuters the Shake Reduction body Pentax offers.
Pentax is outdoorsman brand, yet their #1 selling K-x is not weather sealed.
Limited lenses are not weathersealed.
Old K-Mount and Screw Mount lenses are not weathersealed.
Should be a fun Photokina for me to watch from a distance.
I hope Pentax has lots of new goodies to offer up in seven weeks to stem the flow of those who are leaving, jumping ship, cashing out...
You are of course correct with regards to the lens line-up. They are top of the class IQ wise and better than many but leave a little to be desired in the reliability and speed departments.
I did start a thread about 12 months ago asking the question of who would like a really top quality pro type zoom above the DA*16-50 f2.8 in the order of US$2,000 with IQ to match. I was keen but got very few other takers. So, I guess there is where Pentax is at. Ask the same question over at Canon or Nikon and you'd get a procession of people wanting it.
As I now own a D700 and the 24-70 f2.8, I can tell you that the IQ of this lens is outstanding and has build quality and fast AF to match. Yes, it is expensive, but it's worth it. This is the exact type of lens I was talking about that Pentax should make if they go FF and if not then in APS C format, ie 16-50 f2.8, and then match it to a top pro spec APS C DSLR like what I described above in my original post.
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Lance B
http://www.pbase.com/lance_b
DLBlack
Forum Pro
Some very good observations. I always thought that Pentax should have three camera line-up with the 18 month product cycle that would mean a new camera every 6 months to keep Pentax name in the news. Two groups with two cameras in each group would also work if Pentax has the production capibility.
The few things I know is that the Pentax/Hoya officials appear to be excited with what is coming later this year. Plus in the Spanish interview a Pentax/Hoya official stated that two cameras will be updated inaddition to two new cameras with one being above the K-7 announced by the end of the year.
Looks like we might be finally getting a pro-level APC-S camera. Now we just need to get some more pro-level lenses available. Where is the "Super-telephoto. Plus a fast normal lens.
So it should be exciting rumors leading up to Photokina.
Dave
The few things I know is that the Pentax/Hoya officials appear to be excited with what is coming later this year. Plus in the Spanish interview a Pentax/Hoya official stated that two cameras will be updated inaddition to two new cameras with one being above the K-7 announced by the end of the year.
Looks like we might be finally getting a pro-level APC-S camera. Now we just need to get some more pro-level lenses available. Where is the "Super-telephoto. Plus a fast normal lens.
So it should be exciting rumors leading up to Photokina.
Dave
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Lance,
When most (above entry level) lenses were moved up in price that meant not only that they were undervalued before but also that their successors will have more room for better performance. For example DA* 16-50 was initially listed @ 650-700 USD (and build to meet that price) now the list price is 999 Euro / 1029 USD.
Let's take into account the only "Hoya" lens besides the DAL and WR kits: DFA 100 Macro WR. That lens addressed a certain shortcoming of the DFA 100 (inferior build) for exactly zero dollars/euro more. So Hoya gave a much better Limited style finish and WR for nothing (because the price was already honest).
I fully expect more lenses to be replaced or enhanced in their weak points following the same process (with modest or no increase at all in price).
Secondly, a couple of years ago one Hoya management guy said that "new lenses will come simultaneously with new cameras". Up to now:
Thirdly, it would of been easiest for Hoya to repack (at least) some FA 645 lenses with AW and SDM and call the day. They seem more eager to redo from scratch the lens line up with the best designs and materials available today for those specific prices than botch the job.
Radu
When most (above entry level) lenses were moved up in price that meant not only that they were undervalued before but also that their successors will have more room for better performance. For example DA* 16-50 was initially listed @ 650-700 USD (and build to meet that price) now the list price is 999 Euro / 1029 USD.
Let's take into account the only "Hoya" lens besides the DAL and WR kits: DFA 100 Macro WR. That lens addressed a certain shortcoming of the DFA 100 (inferior build) for exactly zero dollars/euro more. So Hoya gave a much better Limited style finish and WR for nothing (because the price was already honest).
I fully expect more lenses to be replaced or enhanced in their weak points following the same process (with modest or no increase at all in price).
Secondly, a couple of years ago one Hoya management guy said that "new lenses will come simultaneously with new cameras". Up to now:
- K20D had DA 18-55 II kit
- K-m was introduced with 2 DA L lenses
- K-7 with 2 WR kit lenses
- K-x with a third DA L tele kit
Thirdly, it would of been easiest for Hoya to repack (at least) some FA 645 lenses with AW and SDM and call the day. They seem more eager to redo from scratch the lens line up with the best designs and materials available today for those specific prices than botch the job.
Radu
Hi Dave,
The excitement doesn't come only from new dslrs but also a string of new, better quality compacts and funding for better marketing of the brand.
Radu
The excitement doesn't come only from new dslrs but also a string of new, better quality compacts and funding for better marketing of the brand.
Radu
Neil Morgan
Senior Member
Thats just plain silly !!
Should be a zoom cake
A Birth Certificate shows that we were born.
A Death Certificate shows that we died.
Pictures show that we lived!
http://www.nmphotoworks.com
http://www.flickr.com/photos/knumbnutz/
Should be a zoom cake
--
A Birth Certificate shows that we were born.
A Death Certificate shows that we died.
Pictures show that we lived!
http://www.nmphotoworks.com
http://www.flickr.com/photos/knumbnutz/
KL Matt
Veteran Member
A stimulating yet civil discussion. And some interesting (and hopefully accurate) rumors about what's next; this is basically what I was hoping to get out of this thread. I've got some food for thought to keep me going till Photokina now. Thank you all!
-Matt
--
... interested in .... photographs? Heh? Know what a mean? Photographs? (He asked him knowingly). Nudge nudge, snap snap, grin grin, wink wink, say no more, say no more, know what a' mean? Know what a' mean?
http://www.pentaxphotogallery.com/home#section=ARTIST&subSection=183820&subSubSection=0&language=EN
-Matt
--
... interested in .... photographs? Heh? Know what a mean? Photographs? (He asked him knowingly). Nudge nudge, snap snap, grin grin, wink wink, say no more, say no more, know what a' mean? Know what a' mean?
http://www.pentaxphotogallery.com/home#section=ARTIST&subSection=183820&subSubSection=0&language=EN
KL Matt
Veteran Member
Looks like that actually is the plan of attack. Let everyone innovate and try to play catch-up... Bummer.
Raphael Mabo
Senior Member
Not really. While the K-5 may look as an evolution rather than revolution, with some small innovations (like individual NR settings for different ISO's) - Pentax has actually been quite innovative, in silence.
I am talking about the new motor for the 18-135 lens.
While DC motors are not innovative in itself, the application is new.
The 18-135 features a new and freshly designed autofocus drive, not seen before and not featured in any product of the competition.
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Take care
Raphael
http://www.flickr.com/photos/raphaelmabo/
richardplondon
Forum Pro
no text here - RP
stern
Senior Member
Cf. my post from 1 hour ago with the link to an article in an Austrian newspaper (in German language). Price: EUR 10.000.- A bit steep for the average prosumer.
http://sternbild.zenfolio.com (gallery)
http://schaffnerlos.blogspot.com (Vienna - image & text blog - in German)
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http://sternbild.zenfolio.com (gallery)
http://schaffnerlos.blogspot.com (Vienna - image & text blog - in German)
janneman02
Forum Pro
I repeat my statement, Pentax now needs something smaller.
The 18-135 would do very well with a sealed body below K-5.
Maybe K-r(WR), maybe K300d...
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Zaldidun
Senior Member
Ditto.I'd settle for a super-duper fast AF-ing aps-c K-8.
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« Zaldidun » is the Basque word for 'Horseman'.
Britney Elvis
Veteran Member
So the camera is a evolution... (meaning essentially the same camera with a different sensor and a few tweeks) like the K10 to K20. And the K5 costs more money than the k7.
Now as far as being "quite innovative, in silence" What a joke that statement is.
They were "silent" because after 5+ years they have never admitted that their SDM AF drive design they used on their flagship DA zooms was faulty! Thread after thread of "My Lens dont move" ---
"Innovation" is not the word I would use to describe trying to silently move on from your defective design in your most expensive DA zoom lenses.
Mr Mabo you sure can spin a good story... you really should consider a career in marketing. Oh wait...
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'Nothing is worse than active ignorance'
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