About the GXRs autofocus..?..

I am, to some degree, losing interest in the AF 'discussion' because it seems that people are so diverse in their requirements, expectations, knowledge and techniques, that very little common ground seems to be reached on the subject. But rather than abandon the topic entirely, I thought I'd note some of my own thoughts and observations on the subject, FWTW.

Is AF mandatory?

To some people, the AF performance seems to be the most important feature that a camera can possess. To the degree, that poor performance in this areas renders a camera useless and/or pointless to them.

While I do acknowledge that there are some situations that demand excellence in this area, there are an infinite variety of situations that don't involve panning on BIFs, extreme motor-sports and scurrying rug-rats.

Indeed, with AF only entering the commercial market place in the late 70s (although patented by Leica in the 60s, whose best lenses, ironically, are MF), I guess it must seem miraculous to such people that many of the worlds most Iconic images, like Earthrise (AS08-14-2383), were able to be taken at all with such useless/pointless cameras. The Hasselblad cameras used by the Apollo Astronauts, had a three position focus switch (near, medium, far), and the selection of an appropriate f stop for the situation formed an important part of their training .

Has anyone noticed how similar that is to the blindingly fast and incredibly useful SNAP mode of the GXR and other Ricohs?

Sidenote: Training: The act of repeating an action or process so as to become familiar with or improve in the performance of that act or process.

AF on what?

My old EOS 20D and 5D both had 9 AF points arranged in a diamond pattern, with preference given to the centre point. I think the equivalent Nikon at the time had 11 areas, whereas now the Nikon D3 has up to 51 points!

So say you are shooting street, and your selected AF point is an area in bottom left third and then you see a scene that should be focussed in bottom right third. So you quickly invoke the AF point selection, choose the bottom right point, and then what... wonder what the shot would have looked like if you hadn't been so slow?

So you change your technique to one of the following:

Centre point: Focus and recompose.
Multi-point: Let the camera decide what part should be in focus

Face-Detect: Let the camera decide that a face near the centre should be in focus
Smile-Detect: Let the camera decide that a happy face should be in focus

I personally gave up on AF for anything other than snapshots and high speed action quite some time ago. Even for birds in flight I use manual focus. I actually like choosing what parts of my images to be in focus, and sometimes I miss.

Why does Ricoh hate me?

In reading some of the posts, it seems like some people take Ricohs quirky AF on the A12 module as a personal attack on them and their desire to take beautiful images.

I don't think Ricoh hates me (or you!). Everything about the A12 seems designed to deliver stunning quality high resolution, high dynamic range images, with truly beautiful DOF rendering, beating everything in its class.

X1, A12, DP1, DP2. All compact APS-C seem to have operation issues that you have to learn to overcome if the extra IQ is worth it to you. At least with the A12, you have many options for achieving focus (snap, MF + magnification, AF x 3)

If you really need more predictable AF in a prosumer compact, then Panasonic has a solution that allows better AF at the cost of a little IQ.

It's good to have the choice no?

-Najinsky
Like you I don't care much about the AF except, and a big except, you should not have to turn the dial more than slight movement so make a difference.... If that is the case than AF with a good VF is fine with me, otherwise AF is preferred (by me). And with the dioptor on the VF of the GXR series I find I do not have to wear my glasses (which I do not for close up work anyway, so never with an LCD screen which I only use to some degree with the GRDlll.
 
It is exactly what it sounds like. An AF system that relies on detecting differences in contrast. One of the biggest differences between Phase Detection and Contrast Detection AF is that Contrast Detection does not factor in the distance of which the subject is being focused. Contrast Detection also does not track your subject while Phase Detection is able to. Contrast Detection is also mostly a software implementation rather than a more hardware dependent implementation like Phase Detection. For speed, Phase Detection is the better bet.

I personally have also noticed that Contrast Detection works MUCH better on film cameras than it does for digital cameras.

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Typed from my iPad.
Not trying to sound stupid, is there a setting? Never noticed this, but maybe I have to dig deeper into the menu system.
Hello Joel

By definition compact cameras ( at least the one without a mirror and a prism) all use contrast AF. the only cameras that have both are DSLR with live view system
a reflex use phase detection but in live view mode , it uses a contrast AF

as a general rule , Phase detection is quicker , AF contrast is more accurate

Harold
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http://www.harold-glit.com
http://www.modelmayhem.com/haroldglit
 
It is exactly what it sounds like. An AF system that relies on detecting differences in contrast. One of the biggest differences between Phase Detection and Contrast Detection AF is that Contrast Detection does not factor in the distance of which the subject is being focused. Contrast Detection also does not track your subject while Phase Detection is able to. Contrast Detection is also mostly a software implementation rather than a more hardware dependent implementation like Phase Detection. For speed, Phase Detection is the better bet.

I personally have also noticed that Contrast Detection works MUCH better on film cameras than it does for digital cameras.

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Typed from my iPad.
Not trying to sound stupid, is there a setting? Never noticed this, but maybe I have to dig deeper into the menu system.
Hello Joel

By definition compact cameras ( at least the one without a mirror and a prism) all use contrast AF. the only cameras that have both are DSLR with live view system
a reflex use phase detection but in live view mode , it uses a contrast AF

as a general rule , Phase detection is quicker , AF contrast is more accurate

Harold
--
http://www.harold-glit.com
http://www.modelmayhem.com/haroldglit
Thanks Harold, so not a setting for my cameras.
 
if I have ny eye glasses on I can see the change between the focus steps as to focus clarity...so yes, it is good.

I would still like to see another magnification step in the lcd, coming from a canon dlsr of the same lcd dot numbers they had a really magnified option that made live-view very usable for me...without my glasses!
wj
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nikonricohandfuji
thanks a lot wymjym - i think it's time to invest some money in Ricoh again ;-)
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cheers, Silvio
 
I personally have also noticed that Contrast Detection works MUCH better on film cameras than it does for digital cameras.
I wasn't aware that film cameras use Contrast Detection. Surely the edge detection image analysis requires a raster image as input? If I'm wrong, then which film cameras use Contrast Detection?
 
Unfortunately for the A12, it only has the Contrast Detect AF system.
and what else would you expect it to have
By definition , a camera like the Ricoh cannot have anything BUT contrast AF
Harold, not sure what you mean here by 'By definition, a camera like the Ricoh....'?

Remember that the GRD I had both contrast detection AF and phase detection AF.
 
Unfortunately for the A12, it only has the Contrast Detect AF system.
Yes, because Ricoh chose to drop phase detection AF after the GRD I with it's commonly perceived superior handling. That they didn't re-introduce it with the GXR was a missed opportunity.
 
No , it was not re-introduced on any Ricoh after the GRD simply because the supplier that provided that possibility went belly up
Yes, we have heard that explanation in these forums before but I always thought it to be a bit wanting as a reason and without quoted sources probably based on supposition. Most (?) SLRs use phase detection and although those are TTL, I would have thought that this means that either there are other manufacturer-suppliers who make them.
 
No , it was not re-introduced on any Ricoh after the GRD simply because the supplier that provided that possibility went belly up
Yes, we have heard that explanation in these forums before but I always thought it to be a bit wanting as a reason and without quoted sources probably based on supposition.
This seems official enough:
http://forum.getdpi.com/forum/showthread.php?t=350
Most (?) SLRs use phase detection and although those are TTL, I would have thought that this means that either there are other manufacturer-suppliers who make them.
The DSLR phase detect modules are quite different and I don't think they can be reused in whole. However, external systems are simpler and I believe that Ricoh could design one if they wanted. They probably think that there are better ways to achieve the same result.

Prog.

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http://www.flickr.com/photos/oren_b
 
Yes, we have heard that explanation in these forums before but I always thought it to be a bit wanting as a reason and without quoted sources probably based on supposition.
This seems official enough:
http://forum.getdpi.com/forum/showthread.php?t=350
prog,

thanks for this. I never saw it before. But it says that the on body AF is rendered unnecessary by the TTTL CCD-AF. It doesn't mention not using it due to supplier problems (that I can see).
Most (?) SLRs use phase detection and although those are TTL, I would have thought that this means that either there are other manufacturer-suppliers who make them.
The DSLR phase detect modules are quite different and I don't think they can be reused in whole. However, external systems are simpler and I believe that Ricoh could design one if they wanted.
Yes, that's what I was getting at. If a manufacture can make TTL then they can make an on-body version.
They probably think that there are better ways to achieve the same result.
Well, in retrospect it seems they got it wrong. I think cost cutting was the real reason.
 
Why the hell are you getting so offensive/defensive? I was just answering someone's question.

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Typed from my iPad.
 
Woowow... Is this addressed to me? Please explain what i did?
Why the hell are you getting so offensive/defensive? I was just answering someone's question.
 
Of course not. I was replying to the same post you replied to thus my post appears below yours. If you take notice though, my post is aligned exactly in the same spot as yours thus you will see that it wasn't a reply to your post ;) I know, it gets confusing but it makes sense if you look at how threads flow on DPReview.

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Typed from my iPad.
 
Yes, we have heard that explanation in these forums before but I always thought it to be a bit wanting as a reason and without quoted sources probably based on supposition.
I posted this before and this was the reason Ricoh gave me when I asked them during the last Photokina: http://ricohgrdiary.wordpress.com/2008/09/28/photokina-2008-day-2/

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http://cristiansoregaphotography.wordpress.com/
http://ricoh-gr-diary.blogspot.com/
http://ricohgrdiary.wordpress.com/
http://jpgmag.com/people/Cristian
 
Indeed, with AF only entering the commercial market place in the late 70s (although patented by Leica in the 60s, whose best lenses, ironically, are MF),
I agree with your point that AF speed is not evreything but for me it's either provide a good and working AF system whcih does not fail or misfocuses in anything but very good light. Now if the AF is not good enough than provide a proper MF ring around the lens and not this silly focus-by-wire system which does not work properly and you always have to look at the screen to see the distance.

But yes, it is very good to have choices and I hope Ricoh will go back and release another camera like the GRD I or GX100 which still work better than the models superceeding them. Well, actually I want Ricoh to release a camera like the GF1 but with their handling and UI but not their AF technology or JPG engine.

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http://cristiansoregaphotography.wordpress.com/
http://ricoh-gr-diary.blogspot.com/
http://ricohgrdiary.wordpress.com/
http://jpgmag.com/people/Cristian
 
You and Joel make a very good point about Manual Focus usability. MF needs to be intuitive, responsive and accurate. In theory, the wire control should be capable of being more responsive as it should be possible to program it for faster/slower or accelerated movement, as well as other useful features, such as being able to detect the ring being turned and auto switch to magnified VF like the Sony NEX do. I was surprised at how little use was made of the ring in the first versions of the firmware.

I don't think the ring needs to be manual as there is no optical VF, so as long as the lens can respond at least as quick as the screen refresh, control by wire has the potential to be more useful, but it does need a better implementation to reach that potential.

Seeing that you have achieved focus is also tricky on compacts. Magnify is a step in the right direction but there is room for some improvement/innovation in that area too.

-Najinsky
 
Seeing that you have achieved focus is also tricky on compacts. Magnify is a step in the right direction but there is room for some improvement/innovation in that area too.
I think there's a lot of room for improvement. The acceleration idea is one that's already implemented in Olympus lenses from recent years, but I don't think they went far enough. I'd like the wired-focus to be extremely slow when the ring is turned slowly, and extremely fast when the ring is turned quickly. With the lenses I tried (and the ones I own) it's never really fast or slow enough.

Another thing I'd like to see implemented is a physical break at the ends of the focus range. After all, there no point in turning the ring any further if it's already at infinity or minimum focus. It usually takes me a second or two to notice this in actual use. A physical break would solve this very nicely.

Prog.

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http://www.flickr.com/photos/oren_b
 

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