Tried a D3s today...

[JC1306]

Yesterday I was shooting swallows - or rather, trying to. Getting those fast little buggers in focus was pretty much a nightmare, the D700 AF system just couldn't get a lock fast enough. It ended up as an exercise in frustration, I took about 300 shots of which 10 or so turned out useable. So when I saw that a local store had the D3s in stock I decided to pay them a visit.

I took my D700 with grip, 500VR and 24-70 to the store for some side-by-side testing. My first impression was that the D3s is surprisingly small and light compared to the D700 with grip combo. The second impression was that the D3s was about 25% faster to get a focus lock than the D700. Unfortunately I couldn't test the focus tracking. I tried to convince the sales guy to run around a bit so I'd have a moving target, but no go.

So now I have to make a tough decision: keep the D700 and accept the fact that there are some birds that are too fast for the AF, or put it up for sale and get on the D3s waiting list. I think it's nuts that Nikon makes customers wait so long, it seems incredibly arrogant. Has anyone heard any rumors about D3s availability improving anytime soon?

Jarno
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Insert random witty comment here.

 

[Luke Kaven]

The D3/D700 and D3s autofocus are virtually identical. We've heard stories about small changes to the D3s autofocus, but I have a feeling that none of them are the issue in this case. The D700 should do just fine, just as well in fact, catching birds in flight. I have a feeling that it has more to do with slight differences in configuration between the two cameras you were using, and less to do with the differences in autofocus design.

Yesterday I was shooting swallows - or rather, trying to. Getting those fast little buggers in focus was pretty much a nightmare, the D700 AF system just couldn't get a lock fast enough. It ended up as an exercise in frustration, I took about 300 shots of which 10 or so turned out useable. So when I saw that a local store had the D3s in stock I decided to pay them a visit.

I took my D700 with grip, 500VR and 24-70 to the store for some side-by-side testing. My first impression was that the D3s is surprisingly small and light compared to the D700 with grip combo. The second impression was that the D3s was about 25% faster to get a focus lock than the D700. Unfortunately I couldn't test the focus tracking. I tried to convince the sales guy to run around a bit so I'd have a moving target, but no go.

So now I have to make a tough decision: keep the D700 and accept the fact that there are some birds that are too fast for the AF, or put it up for sale and get on the D3s waiting list. I think it's nuts that Nikon makes customers wait so long, it seems incredibly arrogant. Has anyone heard any rumors about D3s availability improving anytime soon?

Jarno
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Insert random witty comment here.

 

[JC1306]

The D3/D700 and D3s autofocus are virtually identical. We've heard stories about small changes to the D3s autofocus, but I have a feeling that none of them are the issue in this case.

You've said it correctly: virtually but not completely identical.. As Thom Hogan wrote in his D700 review: "the D700 seems to have the autofocus processing speed of the D3 (most visible in Auto Area AF), though it does seem to have a slight lag in acquisition I don't always see in my D3"

The D3, D3s and D700 have the same AF sensor but there's obviously a difference in how the information from that sensor is processed.

The D700 should do just fine, just as well in fact, catching birds in flight. I have a feeling that it has more to do with slight differences in configuration between the two cameras you were using, and less to do with the differences in autofocus design.

Yes it does just fine but it's not without limitations. I've taken pictures of buzzards, falcons, geese, gulls, sparrows, robins, cormorants, herons - you name it. But those birds are all relatively slow so the AF system has time to spare. Those swallows fly so fast and erratic that they're out of the frame by the time the AF system finally starts to get close. I made sure that both cams were configured the same way and they were both running off the same EL-4 battery so there was no benefit either way. The D700 would carefully approach focus while the D3s would step up and nail it. Maybe it's because of improved focusing algorithms, maybe it's simply a matter of more processing power but the D3s was faster. I wouldn't call the difference huge but it was noticeable.

Jarno
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Insert random witty comment here.

 

[Luke Kaven]

It is so hard to make a solid determination about the differences between autofocus in these models because it is almost impossible to exactly reproduce all of the parameters that the camera uses in acquisition and tracking. It's a little like guessing how the matrix meter arrives at its determination. Minute differences in scene data could make very large differences in behavior. But I say, if you've got a knack with one model or the other, maybe you're onto something.

 

[Rocco N]

The D700 AF sensor isn't almost identical it is the same as D3.
Below is a spec straight from Nikon's D700 6 page Spec PDF.

My son-in-law is an authorized Nikon repair tech and told me not only are the AF sensors interchangeable the firmware code is identical.

"The strategically positioned 51 AF points of the D700's Multi- CAM 3500FX AF sensor module are identical with those of the D3, and keep your subject in focus, even with quick and/or erratic subject movement, across a wide extent of the frame."

 

[canfield]

I have noticed that with the D700 and the battery grip running at 8fps, the focus track just can't get it right most of the time, despite being the same system as the D3 et al. Some have suggested it is because the mirror does not operate as fast as the bigger brothers and that limits the time the autofocus has to make sure all is well. Try decreasing the frame rate and things may work out better for you. I pretty much leave the battery grip off all the time now, and just shot at 5 fps, which I find is more than adequate anyway. It actually makes me concentrate on the action and fire when I choose to, as opposed to machine gunning it and hoping I get what I want.

Give it a try, you may like it.

Chuck Canfield

 

[JC1306]

I have noticed that with the D700 and the battery grip running at 8fps, the focus track just can't get it right most of the time, despite being the same system as the D3 et al. Some have suggested it is because the mirror does not operate as fast as the bigger brothers and that limits the time the autofocus has to make sure all is well. Try decreasing the frame rate and things may work out better for you. I pretty much leave the battery grip off all the time now, and just shot at 5 fps, which I find is more than adequate anyway. It actually makes me concentrate on the action and fire when I choose to, as opposed to machine gunning it and hoping I get what I want.

Give it a try, you may like it.

No need, I already do that. I only switch to Ch when the action is happening extremely fast and I want to capture the perfect moment, e.g. birds landing or taking off, or fighter jets crossing each other at airshows. For almost all other situations 5 or 6 FPS is fast enough otherwise I'd just end up with huge amounts of nearly identical pics. BTW, the problem is not in tracking the focus in between shots, it's getting a focus lock in the first place.

Jarno
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Insert random witty comment here.

 

[JC1306]

And yet there is a difference, and I'm not the only one who has noticed this. From Thom Hogans D700 review:

"My D3 snaps into initial autofocus faster than my D700, which does so faster than my D300." and "the D700 seems to have the autofocus processing speed of the D3 (most visible in Auto Area AF), though it does seem to have a slight lag in acquisition I don't always see in my D3"

I have yet to encounter a situation where the D700 can't keep something in focus once it has achieved a lock, but I have noticed that the D3s (and presumably the D3) can get the subject in focus faster. Like I said, maybe it's because there's more bandwidth between the 3500FX and the EXPEED processor, maybe the D3(s) simply can deliver slightly more power to the lens, who knows? All I can say is that I had both cameras on the counter and there was a difference.

It's a moot point anyway. Even if I somehow found the cash to upgrade tomorrow there won't be a D3s available for quite some time.

Jarno
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Insert random witty comment here.

 

[Fish323]

No need, I already do that. I only switch to Ch when the action is happening extremely fast and I want to capture the perfect moment,

Ok what is CH. Someone please put me out of my misery.

 

[jhwalker]

No need, I already do that. I only switch to Ch when the action is happening extremely fast and I want to capture the perfect moment,

Ok what is CH. Someone please put me out of my misery.

Continuous shooting, high speed (i.e., 9fps instead of 5fps - you can choose either on the D3 - I think on the D700 it's more like 8fps (with grip))

--
John Walker
http://jhwalker.smugmug.com/

 

[WalterH]

I tried to convince the sales guy to run around a bit so I'd have a moving target, but no go.

Jarno
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Insert random witty comment here.

He knew he would look like a snail compared to the birds.

And in case one day you try to follow not swallows but swifts with your AF be prepared that these are even faster and can reach well over 200kkm/h or 130mph.

Tough even for a D3s. You just need to find conditions and a path that is a bit slower and better to follow than in good thermals and lots of insects.
Good luck and please post once you got some good shots

 

[Rich__K]

I find the focus tracking of the 3s to work quite well. These shots aren't easy to capture since the objects were moving at a very fast speed and the rider are always in a state of motion...These are shot handheld.

This is a stellar camera in all aspects. The ISO performance opens a whole new world in your photography as well. It's amazing and until you experience this camera for real, you'll never appreciate the hype.







--
'I'm Just A Messenger'

 

[JC1306]

And in case one day you try to follow not swallows but swifts with your AF be prepared that these are even faster and can reach well over 200kkm/h or 130mph.

Tough even for a D3s. You just need to find conditions and a path that is a bit slower and better to follow than in good thermals and lots of insects.
Good luck and please post once you got some good shots

So far I've only been able to capture Sand Martins:







Not as sharp as some of my other bird pics but even at 1/2000s these little guys show motion blur. I'll just keep trying until I have the picture I want. Thankfully they're not shy, sometimes they'd fly less than a meter away.

Jarno
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Insert random witty comment here.

 

[Luke Kaven]

They look like they're having a ball!

 

[Paul Robertson]

So now I have to make a tough decision: keep the D700 and accept the fact that there are some birds that are too fast for the AF, or put it up for sale and get on the D3s waiting list. I think it's nuts that Nikon makes customers wait so long, it seems incredibly arrogant. Has anyone heard any rumors about D3s availability improving anytime soon?

If you think Nikon is purposefully not manufacturing every D3s they possibly could sell based upon their production capacity, budget and sales figures, then I think you might want to rethink it. The best margins are at the high end, and it's a tricky balance to not overproduce and have millions in inventory sitting on shelves when you're ready to start selling the next thing.

There will likely be no new pro body this year- Nikon wants to sell as many D3s and D3x cameras as it can. The wait isn't about arrogance, it's about capacity, logistics and to some extent overall business.

Given the economy, I think Nikon underestimated sales, and I think they also underestimated popularity- but I can't imagine they're purposefully keeping money on the table.

Paul
http://www.PaulDRobertson.net

 

[DaveWo]

Yesterday I was shooting swallows - or rather, trying to. Getting those fast little buggers in focus was pretty much a nightmare, the D700 AF system just couldn't get a lock fast enough. It ended up as an exercise in frustration, I took about 300 shots of which 10 or so turned out useable.

Not that unusual, I'd say. Most people don't even try.

[snip]>

So now I have to make a tough decision: keep the D700 and accept the fact that there are some birds that are too fast for the AF,

Some birds are just too small and fly too erratic that it is very difficult to lock focus and track them. Nevertheless, it can be done. Two examples (tree swallows):





D700 200-400 hand-held.

Even a D300 can do it:





D300 70-300 hand-held.

I don't think even a D3s or 1 D Mk IV could help much. I don't have either though.

 

[Stephen Christie]

Seems to me the mfg.’s keep all the good stuff for the highest end bodies.
My canons were the same way.

For demanding AF situations I am usually frustrated to the point of giving up unless I use a Nikon D3 series body or the Canon 1D III I had.
Of course, many people on the forums websites mocked me for my situation.

I was told to stop even trying, to get lessons, and once in a while, someone would say they had the same experience as you and I.
Maybe there are three sides to the truth. lol

I will admit, I have not spent hundreds of hours trying to perfect tracking with AF on any camera body. Those hundreds of hours of practice is what many of the really good photogs do and it seems to work for most of them. For the rest of us, the D3 body seems a fitting answer to the issue.
Steve

 

[Luke Kaven]

In NIkon's case, the D700 (and the D300 too) has the same 51-point AF module as the D3, so any differences would be minute.

This is NIkon's counter to Canon strategy of putting a lower end AF system in the 5DII, for reasons I'll never understand. A lot of bang in the 5DII. I guess they felt if they were selling a better imager than the 1Ds3 for $2300, they best take out something .

Seems to me the mfg.’s keep all the good stuff for the highest end bodies.
My canons were the same way.

For demanding AF situations I am usually frustrated to the point of giving up unless I use a Nikon D3 series body or the Canon 1D III I had.
Of course, many people on the forums websites mocked me for my situation.

I was told to stop even trying, to get lessons, and once in a while, someone would say they had the same experience as you and I.
Maybe there are three sides to the truth. lol

I will admit, I have not spent hundreds of hours trying to perfect tracking with AF on any camera body. Those hundreds of hours of practice is what many of the really good photogs do and it seems to work for most of them. For the rest of us, the D3 body seems a fitting answer to the issue.
Steve

 

[Stephen Christie]

I can not direct you to the Nikon spec sheet of hand but I have looked it up in the past, and recently reviewed the canon spec sheets to find the same trend.

But still Nikon and Canon list them at 2x faster AF acquisition specification for their D3s D3x and 1D III / 1d IV bodies compared to the lower bodies in the lineups.
There are similarities in the D700 and D3s but the same, they are not.
The same for the canon lineups compared to the 1D III or 1D IV.

Then there is also the "shutter" lag times, which are often 50% faster, added onto the AF lock being 50% faster on the highest end models.

In NIkon's case, the D700 (and the D300 too) has the same 51-point AF module as the D3, so any differences would be minute.

This is NIkon's counter to Canon strategy of putting a lower end AF system in the 5DII, for reasons I'll never understand. A lot of bang in the 5DII. I guess they felt if they were selling a better imager than the 1Ds3 for $2300, they best take out something .

Seems to me the mfg.’s keep all the good stuff for the highest end bodies.
My canons were the same way.

For demanding AF situations I am usually frustrated to the point of giving up unless I use a Nikon D3 series body or the Canon 1D III I had.
Of course, many people on the forums websites mocked me for my situation.

I was told to stop even trying, to get lessons, and once in a while, someone would say they had the same experience as you and I.
Maybe there are three sides to the truth. lol

I will admit, I have not spent hundreds of hours trying to perfect tracking with AF on any camera body. Those hundreds of hours of practice is what many of the really good photogs do and it seems to work for most of them. For the rest of us, the D3 body seems a fitting answer to the issue.
Steve

--
-Steve

 

[AztecPhotos]

Shooting swallows or hummingbirds in flight is pretty tough, but like anything, with some patience, you'll get your shot no matter which camera. Speaking of swallows, they nest in our eaves every year and this year one of the babies flew out the next prematurely. The parents continued to care for the baby right outside our kitchen window so I grabbed the camera that already had a lens on it (D300) and shot these photos through the kitchen window. The swallows were converging on a fixed point, so I wasn't dealing with your follow-focus problem, but I thought you might enjoy these. I also added a hummingbird shot from last year shot with a D200. I've got a D700, which I love, and just ordered a D3s from B&H who are now accepting orders. I hope it's as good as advertised!