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Will R

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I'd be grateful thoughts on musings below.

Seems to me that what enthusiasts really want for a micro 4/3 body is the spec of the Panasonic GF1 (great LCD, fast & accurate AF, onboard flash when you want it) and the in-body-stabilisation the Olympus cameras offer (so that legacy lenses can benefit) as well as the resolution of the Olympus electronic viewfinder unit.

What we've currently got is two cameras (GF1 and E-P2) that between them - almost - offer the full suite of technical features. I could buy an E-P2 body and the Panasonic 20mm and 2nd gen 14-42mm OS zoom lenses but the cost is pretty significant (even if I could find the zoom lens on its' own) and I'd still feel I was missing out on autofocus speed and LCD resolution. I'm really committed to at least having the option of an eye-level finder and having once owned a Panasonic LC1 five years ago with an EVF of broadly the same resolution as the GF1 (200k px), I know it's not really up to scratch: it wasn't even then (although the camera was in many ways a gem, at a mere 5mp probably not one to hunt down now...)

I'm reluctant to commit to either Panasonic or Olympus micro 4/3 at present even though I really yearn for the compact size of this system without undue compromise on image quality - as long as I process the files properly. It's real "heart versus head" (and bank manager) stuff... I might stick with my Canon 350D (which has pretty average autofocus accuracy but it is fast) until the next generation of these micro 4/3 marvels...

Any views / insights?

PS Do Sigma or other independent lens makers plan to launch anything for this system? I would think a decent fast portrait lens would sell quite well
 
Will R said:
I'd be grateful thoughts on musings below.

Seems to me that what enthusiasts really want for a micro 4/3 body is the spec of the Panasonic GF1 (great LCD, fast & accurate AF, onboard flash when you want it) and the in-body-stabilisation the Olympus cameras offer (so that legacy lenses can benefit) as well as the resolution of the Olympus electronic viewfinder unit.

What we've currently got is two cameras (GF1 and E-P2) that between them - almost - offer the full suite of technical features. I could buy an E-P2 body and the Panasonic 20mm and 2nd gen 14-42mm OS zoom lenses but the cost is pretty significant (even if I could find the zoom lens on its' own) and I'd still feel I was missing out on autofocus speed and LCD resolution. I'm really committed to at least having the option of an eye-level finder and having once owned a Panasonic LC1 five years ago with an EVF of broadly the same resolution as the GF1 (200k px), I know it's not really up to scratch: it wasn't even then (although the camera was in many ways a gem, at a mere 5mp probably not one to hunt down now...)

I'm reluctant to commit to either Panasonic or Olympus micro 4/3 at present even though I really yearn for the compact size of this system without undue compromise on image quality - as long as I process the files properly. It's real "heart versus head" (and bank manager) stuff... I might stick with my Canon 350D (which has pretty average autofocus accuracy but it is fast) until the next generation of these micro 4/3 marvels...

Any views / insights?

PS Do Sigma or other independent lens makers plan to launch anything for this system? I would think a decent fast portrait lens would sell quite well
Click to expand...
I was in the same place. Analysis paralysis. Well, In a way, you're right. Today there is no "perfect" M4/3 camera that has all the features that one would want (at least me anyway). Which is why I bought the E-PL1. It was my way into the M4/3 that was as close as possible to my needs as I could find, with as little out of pocket as possible to try it out.

I got in on the Beach Camera deal at $474 a couple of weeks ago, expecting that I might send the camera back, as I was a DSLR snob. When the camera arrived, within a couple of hours, I managed to capture some beautiful images and some lovely HD video, and over the course of two weeks, even more. I quickly forgot about the shortcomings of the camera (at least the ones that gave me pause; shutter speed and LCD resolution), and realized that this was a great little camera that produced the nicest output that I have seen out of a small camera.

At this point, I knew I made the right decision to jump in and just try the one that came the closest to meeting my needs. In the end, I figured I can always sell this camera (even at a loss) in the future for the newer model that comes closer when it arrives. During that time, I will have captured images and HD video that are worth far more to me in value than the $474 I spent.
 
No one camera will ever have everything you seek. Pick the one with the features that match your needs the best and stop waiting for what will never come.

It is just a waste of time as you could be taking pictures!
--
Greg Gebhardt in
Jacksonville, Florida
 
Yup, I'm waiting on an E-Px with a built in EVF al-la range finder (as opposed to SLR type hump) and although I'm not bothered about a built in flash I would like support for remote wireless flash.

But as you say we ain't there yet, so I bought an E-P1 and both the 14-42 and the 17mm which I may add lenses to fairly soon. Then when Olympus (or Panasonic) come out with the body I really want I'll change that out. But in the mean time I've got a camera to tote about and saved a significant amount over the more expensive choices on a body that I'm intending to change anyway
 
In all the years I've been into photography, I've never had a camera that had everything, and I doubt I ever will. That's pretty much the nature of the market - certain features are unique to one company. Micro four thirds is unusual because we have two different sets of patents and philosophies sharing a mount, which leaves us wishing we could mix and match more than elsewhere. The grass is still greener on the other side, but the fence has turned into more of a foot high retaining wall... :)

As for your specific points, I think your worries may be excessive. Olympus has made great strides on AF performance with good lenses - to the point that once I disabled the quick AF magic on the GH1 (senses when the camera stops swinging and starts AF cycle then,) the E-PL1 felt as fast with the 14-140. The LCD difference is real, but not a huge deal in my experience. The Olympus LCDs are detailed enough to see focus and framing.

Sigma did say at PMA that they would be developing lenses. No statments about which ones or when, so they are very much vaporware at the moment.
Walter
 
E-P2 with its 14-42 and with the 20mm seems to be the best option at the moment. But the 20mm is not cheap bought alone...
--
What´s that noise?

From one of the Canon Forums:

'I just came back from my first holiday with the 5D II (I think my wife was there as well). '
 
Based on your stated criteria, I really think either the EP2 or EPL1 is the way to go for you. The only shortcoming I see is the AF speed, but unless you shoot like Sam Bennett, I seriously doubt you'd find that a drawback of the Olys. His video of his shooting style using the GF1 and the EPL1 showed the difference between the two in shot to shot responsiveness (and it was more about blackout time than AF). But he was shooting pics of his son at a really frenetic pace that I think very few people short of DSLR action photographers really spend much time doing in the real world. I have the EPL1 and once I customized a few buttons so the operation is to my liking, its all I want in a camera. I have the kit lens, the Pany 20, the Pany 45-200, and the new Oly 9-18 and I have the whole range covered in a travel bag that's small and light. And I have the evf for really bright light conditions, which is the only time I use it. And I can take it out with just the kit lens or the 20 (or the 9-18 for that matter) and have an extremely compact and light camera that draws no attention to itself and I can fit in a small handlebar bag on my bike.

It really sounds like AF speed is the only downside of the Oly side of the tradeoff for you and you should really spend some time with one before you write it off based on that. At the very least, it should hold you until your "perfect" m43 appears on the horizon.

-Ray
 
Fair observation but I've got more than enough cameras to take pictures with. I can afford to be patient. I think this system will deliver the combination I'm looking for in time. If you'd said fve years ago that in 2010 you could get a consumer camera with a clip-on EVF that weighed one ounce and had a resolution over 1m pixels

I like the idea of not having to choose between lugging an SLR or a compact that fits in my wife's handbag but misses the moment / produces a blurry smudge instead of the happy couple walking out of church etc.
 
I re-iterate ..

people are greedy, they want all thing and everything and ask them to be lightweight, compact, and cost little ..

well if one need decent EVF, look no further then the G1/G2/GH1 or even NX10 and E-P2 , if they want in body IS, then all the olympus m4/3 bodies had that

no one tools are perfect and it won't be either in the future. As a equipment, its abotu the set context of performance that count, and users, simply need to learn to live within the limitation, and exploit the potential ..

now years back I shoot with a screw mount leica with film, and uncoupled range finder and a slow 4.0 lens, it does not stop me from making decent photos, so as it is today's camera are far more advance and capable. I see nothing that said that as they are that they cannot produce decent photos, if its not the camera, then might be its the photographer ..
  • Franka -
 
Thanks for your comments. I do of course realise that my perfect camera will not probably exist in my lifetime or earning capacity. Not sure who Sam Bennet is but I do have a young family and candid family shots - which inevitably means children moving quickly and unexpectedly - are definitely a key feature of my regular subject-matter. Autofocus that is as fast and accurate as the state of the art will permit is right up there on my list of important things.

Whilst remaining realistic about overall 'compact' camera capabilities and acknowledging that even my Canon 350D SLR can't autofocus reliably on moving children (Canon 1 series or equivalent is the only class of camera I have ever used that can) the Olympus autofocus seemed way more sluggish than Panasonic's GF1 in my "pick up and point" test but I have not played with an Olympus with the latest firmware... (Can it really make that much difference? The reviews seem a bit wooly - i.e it's improved but still not as good as the GF1).

This camera has to meet - and preferably exceed - the "useable by wife for family snaps" standard. It's not just going to be my toy. I know people will suggest (and already have) that I get an E-PL1 as a stop-gap until something better comes along but bluntly I can't indulge an unsatisfactory compromise at that cost (it's still £450 or more here in the UK).
 
Of course, nothing's perfect but your Leica was pretty good. Autofocus and image stabilisation were not in the consumer's reach at that point so comparisons are fatuous. However, a good viewfinder was certainly one thing that set it above its contemporaries.

My real point is that if one is looking at significant outlay on a new digital camera system that is state of the art (which micro 4/3 is meant to be), then it is frustrating that the components of one manufacturer are apparently hobbled by not including desirable features that the other key manufacturer does currently offer.

A cynic might suggest the micro 4/3 partners had collaborated to ensure that neither camera possesses all the attributes to make it the obvious choice for purchasers and no one camera takes too much market share initially...
 
I would say you speak it out yourself, its the feature the other Mfr delivering, not the one ... so EVF in GH1 is not on OLympus, and IBIS is not on Panasonic, as I stated, its a chosen set of features by the Mfr.

I am pretty sure in the realm of near future, there will be more models from Panasonic and Olympus , but I am also quite confident that they probably are not going to go about knocking out one and for all, it just do not made much sense. Why becasue many of the features are contradicting to the design.

My reference to leica is not about quality, but about compromise. Then the uncoupled Range finder on the Leica screw is the compromise ( to keep it small , ethat is until the Leica M which is way bigger than the screw ). Yes even the most expensive ware need to compromise, course not all features / design criteria / need work always together well.

And for every Mfr, its what they deliver that counts, not what the other Mfr deliver. Panasonic is a strong player in pro Video, and thus we can see this trickle down into the M4/3 , and of course the sensor. Olympus just try another route of how to go about it, variation in this case is a good thing.

--
  • Franka -
 
i wrote to sigma and they say they have no plans to make micro 4/3 lenses.
Will R said:
PS Do Sigma or other independent lens makers plan to launch anything for this system? I would think a decent fast portrait lens would sell quite well
Click to expand...
btw, ironically a micro 4/3 camera is the only medium to large purchase i haven't agonized over in ages. one sunday my son showed me an e-p1 and an nx10 (not sayin' the nx10 is m4/3). i had always wanted a fairly light camera with a smaller grip and dslr quality pics and controls. i spent a wild week reading every review and visiting the cameras in person. one week later, i had ordered my gf1 :)
 
Brian Mosley said:
I love that there are mature, experienced photographers still knocking around these forums. I've learned so much here.

E-PL1 + Hexanon 57mm f1.2
1/1250s f/2.8 at 57.0mm iso320



E-PL1 + Hexanon 57mm f1.2
1/1600s f/4.0 at 57.0mm iso200

Click to expand...
-- Nice shots Brian. Perhaps intended to impress on EPL1 auto focus capabilities?

One observation, in capable hands many cameras with adequate shutter and lens speed and focal length when prefocused at a set point could have come up with a similar result and this is not reflective on AF speed if used in this way?

Unfortunately animals in the wild or frisky children are much less cooperative!

Best regards
 
Will R said:
Seems to me that what enthusiasts really want for a micro 4/3 body is the spec of the Panasonic GF1 (great LCD, fast & accurate AF, onboard flash when you want it) and the in-body-stabilisation the Olympus cameras offer (so that legacy lenses can benefit) as well as the resolution of the Olympus electronic viewfinder unit.
Click to expand...
That's only the enthusiasts looking for the compact body solution like the GF1 and PEN bodies. Personally, I (and others) want a more capable camera in a G-series body that has more features and offers better image quality but retains the compactness offered by the MFT standard in a full-featured body. Frankly I can't stand taking photos using the LCD, and only do it as a necessity for off-angle shots, which means I could care less about having a touchscreen LCD on a G-body. Give me 4 stops better image quality (improved processor and sensor), wider dynamic range, and a sealed magnesium body and I'm sold.
 
safaridon said:
Brian Mosley said:
I love that there are mature, experienced photographers still knocking around these forums. I've learned so much here.

E-PL1 + Hexanon 57mm f1.2
1/1250s f/2.8 at 57.0mm iso320



E-PL1 + Hexanon 57mm f1.2
1/1600s f/4.0 at 57.0mm iso200

Click to expand...
-- Nice shots Brian. Perhaps intended to impress on EPL1 auto focus capabilities?
Click to expand...
Not at all, just that I love photography :)
safaridon said:
One observation, in capable hands many cameras with adequate shutter and lens speed and focal length when prefocused at a set point could have come up with a similar result and this is not reflective on AF speed if used in this way?
Click to expand...
Absolutely, and that's exactly how I took them... with the E-PL1 + a legacy lens, pre-visualised, pre-focused and taken at the critical moment where I wanted to freeze the action worth seeing.
safaridon said:
Unfortunately animals in the wild or frisky children are much less cooperative!
Click to expand...
I disagree, wildlife photographers probably focus manually too, and my own children may not be too predictable - but I'm patient ;)

Cheers

Brian
--
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Seriously -- all these m43 cams are very capable. Try one out. If you live in an area with a resale market, then try a used one. You can also resell. As Ray noted above, the EPL1 or EP2 might be a good start.

Don't wait for the "perfect" camera -- just buy and shoot!

Good luck!

--

I refuse to wed myself to any of these vendors. I'm just having fun taking pictures,
and watching the technology develop.
 
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