Interesting view of next M from Reichmann

I can't speak for everybody, but I'm willing to bet that none of us who responded under Ashwin's comments view Reichman's suggestions as a "threat" to rangefinders.

Far from it.

Peter.
Ashwin, I get the feeling that you and others here see Reichman's article as a threat to the very existence of rangefinders and a way of photographic life. It is not. I think people read his article and think he is trying to usher in the death of the rangefinder. That's not what he is suggesting.

You don't hear this kind of outcry from DSLR owners considering the Miirrorless Camera as being a threat to their DSLR way of life. Honestly, sometimes I think Leica fans are just way to sensitive when it comes to the M line.

Rangefinders will, due to their cost and their own shortcomings, remain a niche camera.. and one day that niche may be so small that it can not support the company that makes them. In that sense, the rangefinder is its own enemy. Reichman is simply suggesting there should be a new branch on the family tree, that's all. And that is a suggestion that I would expect most to welcome.

I'm for progress and better and more affordable photography. I don't care if it comes from Canon, Nikon, Sony, Panasonic or Leica. I can not and will not allow myself to be tied to any system whose limitations will impede my ability to get the shots I desire. That is one of the reasons I have a variety of cameras and do not rely on just one to serve all my needs.

I suggest everyone keep an open mind about what is to come and not reject it outright because of some perceived threat to the rangefinder. I mean really, is it about the gear or the photography? I swear, the day I get more enjoyment out of holding my equipment than the photo it produced is the day I sell it all and find another hobby because I will have lost site of the actual purpose of the camera.

--
Jim Radcliffe
http://www.boxedlight.com
http://www.oceona.com

The ability to 'see' the shot is more important than the gear used to capture it.
--
Peter | QDIEM4SC
http://qdiem4sc.zenfolio.com/
 
I can't speak for everybody, but I'm willing to bet that none of us who responded under Ashwin's comments view Reichman's suggestions as a "threat" to rangefinders.
The word "threat" was used in conjunction with the reactions... the reactions were pretty much... no, no, don't change my rangefinder....

Let's not go totally literal here... I really hate it when that happens. You know what I meant.
--
Jim Radcliffe
http://www.boxedlight.com
http://www.oceona.com

The ability to 'see' the shot is more important than the gear used to capture it.
 
I can't speak for everybody, but I'm willing to bet that none of us who responded under Ashwin's comments view Reichman's suggestions as a "threat" to rangefinders.
The word "threat" was used in conjunction with the reactions... the reactions were pretty much... no, no, don't change my rangefinder....
That's true. Many don't want the rangefinder changed in any fundamental way. But nobody, as far as I can tell, is against Leica introducing another type of camera. If Leica ever decides to kill the M line for whatever reason, well, I'll be disappointed, but life will go on.
Let's not go totally literal here... I really hate it when that happens. You know what I meant.
My response was genuine and not an attempt to inflame; sorry if it came across that way.

Peter.

--
Peter | QDIEM4SC
http://qdiem4sc.zenfolio.com/
 
Some agree, some don't.

I'm just not sure how it's a logical argument to essentially tell Leica to develop their own E-P1/GF1 in full-frame with M-Mount, sell it for $6000 (which you know they'll do), and expect that will some how "save" them. Everyone else will already be doing it at half the cost (or less). The one positive thing Leica has going for it right now (even if you personally don't agree), is they are essentially the only digital rangefinder game in town.

Amy
--



Creativity is allowing yourself to make mistakes. Art is knowing which ones to keep.
Twitter: http://twitter.com/DangRabbit
Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/DangRabbitPhotography
PAD Project: http://www.DangRabbit.com/photography/pad
Gallery: http://www.DangRabbit.com/photography
 
Jim, as far as your comment earlier goes: "...criticized, beaten down and some even thought I was troll because of my blasphemous thoughts." , I think you're being a little bit melodramatic, don't you? If you come on any forum and criticise the forum's product, of course you're going to receive some opposition. Even the Leica forum is not immune from that. But I don't think it's quite as bad as you're making it out to be.
Mark.. you seem to follow my posts and always have a rebuttal.
Jim, you're right, I do follow your posts, as I often seriously consider your input and the lack of fear to voice your opinion on ideas or concepts that you feel need addressing. But we don't always agree on issues, so I respond. And I suppose my responses towards you make an impression because I challenge you on them when I might not agree or if I find a contradiction in them.

In an earlier thread, you accused me of being a bit "too sensitive" when I was questioning your choice of words concerning the decision of people who purchase an M8. But in this earlier post of yours (in this thread), I suggest that you have possibly been too sensitive. You might not agree with me, Jim, but that's just what I'm hearing. But really, I don't want to spend anymore time with this issue. It's not what we're here for.
You've not walked a mile in my shoes.
Jim, you've made a similar statement like that before. I'm not going to sit here and say one of us has "seen more" than the other, even if one is older than the other (we're probably really not that different in age). You probably know as well as I do that age often doesn't coincide with wisdom. Trust me, Jim, I have some pretty well worn shoes myself.
I get emails all the time, some of them not all that pleasant but thankfully most of them agree with me.
I'm glad to hear that you get a lot of support. I am not surprised.
I am critical of Leica because I care for Leica.. a concept some have a hard time getting their head around.

I stand by what I wrote.. and I can't understand how you can possibly suggest I am being less than truthful about it.
Please, Jim, where have I suggested that you are being less than truthful about what you wrote?
Let's not get into another discussion like the last one, please, I don't have the time for it.
I agree.
--
  • Mark Ehlers (formerly 'markE')
http://www.pbase.com/marke



'Good street/wildlife photography is a controlled accident,
a vision of preparation and surrender materialized.'
 
Ashwin, I get the feeling that you and others here see Reichman's article as a threat to the very existence of rangefinders and a way of photographic life. It is not. I think people read his article and think he is trying to usher in the death of the rangefinder. That's not what he is suggesting.
Nope, I don't feel that MR's comments are a threat. I just feel that the M rangefinder should stay in Leica's repertoire as is for those many of us who enjoy its structure. I personally don't think he is trying to usher the death of the rangefinder, rather that he wishes to rethink what a rangefinder is...I don't see the need for any such rethinking.
You don't hear this kind of outcry from DSLR owners considering the Miirrorless Camera as being a threat to their DSLR way of life. Honestly, sometimes I think Leica fans are just way to sensitive when it comes to the M line.
Well, not so sure about that....there are all kinds of articles out there on Gizmodo, Wired, and many tech blogs about the "Death of the SLR"....I think that talk is equally silly. Personally, I am thrilled to see the addition of m4/3 to the photographic landscape, as it adds another tool for photographers who feel comfortable working within that new systems limits. Each system, SLR, Rangefinder, point and shoot, m4/3, has its positives and benefits, and some feel comfortable working within certain constraints.

I don't think ALL Leica fans are too sensitive. Some are. Some aren't.
Rangefinders will, due to their cost and their own shortcomings, remain a niche camera.. and one day that niche may be so small that it can not support the company that makes them. In that sense, the rangefinder is its own enemy. Reichman is simply suggesting there should be a new branch on the family tree, that's all. And that is a suggestion that I would expect most to welcome.
Agreed. For the majority of people, rangefinders are too much work and not appealing whatsoever. They will be a niche camera, unless there is a sea change in thinking in today's photographic world. I COMPLETELY disagree that the RF is its own enemy, however. It is simply a selected tool for certain photographers who enjoy working within its parameters. I think Leica understands this, and if anything, they must be suprised at the volume of demand, otherwise they wouldn't be waiting lists now stretching nearly 5 months for some.

As for a new branch in the family tree, I agree. THe more branches the merrier. I am a gearhead as well as photography buff, and I always am considering new tools that may expand my horizons or force me to think in new ways. I welcome any additions that Leica or any other manufacturer may provide.
I'm for progress and better and more affordable photography. I don't care if it comes from Canon, Nikon, Sony, Panasonic or Leica. I can not and will not allow myself to be tied to any system whose limitations will impede my ability to get the shots I desire. That is one of the reasons I have a variety of cameras and do not rely on just one to serve all my needs.
Agreed. The more affordable, the better. I don't care who the tech comes from either. I have enjoyed wares from Canon and Leica and hope that each company will challenge all others to raise their collective games...I think we completely concur on that. As for various systems limitations, I understand that you found the M8 to be limiting to your photography. I, in fact, find the exact opposite. While Leica's system does impose its limitations (no real macro, super telephoto's moot in the current RF world), I find that my photography thrives within those limitations. I think that you should avoid RF's if you feel them to be limiting to you, but you are good any whatever tool you use, Jim, so I think and hope that a RF will find its way back to you ;)
I suggest everyone keep an open mind about what is to come and not reject it outright because of some perceived threat to the rangefinder. I mean really, is it about the gear or the photography? I swear, the day I get more enjoyment out of holding my equipment than the photo it produced is the day I sell it all and find another hobby because I will have lost site of the actual purpose of the camera.
Doing my best to keep an open mind. I am always open to suggestion. Don't feel that there's a threat, just a misunderstanding of the pulse of the rangefinder community. MR has had a long history with RF's, and he feels that maybe an evolution is in order. His words carry a lot of weight in the online community and with Leica (after all, he was one of 5 of us, including Phil Askey, Sean Reid, and David Farkas, Jono Slack) who got to glance and handle the M9 well before the rest of us. That he should speak for all of us is wrong. It's just his opinion, and he's completely entitled to it. I just don't feel the way he does

Phew, that's a lot of typing. Back to editing photos. No offense intended or taken, Jim. I enjoy hearing your thoughts and opinions, and rarely share my own. I guess you caught me on the right day....hahah.

--
Ashwin Rao
My blog: http://photos-ash.blogspot.com
My Flickr Sets: http://flickr.com/photos/ashwinrao1/sets/
 
QDIEM4SC wrote:

I can't speak for everybody, but I'm willing to bet that none of us who responded under Ashwin's comments view Reichman's suggestions as a "threat" to rangefinders.
I agree that much of what MR writes is probably true. heck, most people do not care to discipline themselves to learn good MF technique. It takes work! But in this day and age, most people would rather not have to think about focusing and just let the camera do the work. That's fine, if that's what you want. But the fact is that we are a unique bunch that does not follow in the mainstream.

But we don't all want that in every camera we own. Just like not everyone cares for an automatic transmission, ...or not everyone cares to go camping with a cot as opposed to sleeping on the ground. Why? Because we like to have the option to challenge ourselves at times, to develope and carefully refine a discipline that allows us to feel that we have been a more active part in making that picture happen.
Jim Radcliffe wrote:

The word "threat" was used in conjunction with the reactions... the reactions were pretty much... no, no, don't change my rangefinder....
But if you suggest that Leica takes the rangefinder out of the camera, of course we will rebel! It's a big part of what rangefinder/manual focus photography is all about, after all! LOL I don't shoot Leicas because they make great cameras, I shoot Leicas because they make great rangefinder cameras!
Let's not go totally literal here... I really hate it when that happens. You know what I meant.
I wish people would mean what they say. I'm funny that way.
--
  • Mark Ehlers (formerly 'markE')
http://www.pbase.com/marke



'Good street/wildlife photography is a controlled accident,
a vision of preparation and surrender materialized.'
 
MR is so wrong on this one, sorry. Maybe I should write my own letter to Leica. The M9 has done something for Leica, in a good way. It has made almost all of their lenses sell out. They have thousands of M9 orders to fill. People are switching from heavy DSLRs to the M9 and they are thrilled with their decisions. This equals LOTS OF POSITIVE BUZZ about Leica.

The main problem Leica has right now is producing the camera at a fast enough pace. If they switched the M series to live view with no RF/VF then THAT would be the death of Leica. Why MR wrote that article right as Leica is gaining some steam is kind of odd and makes no sense.

Who knows, they may be working on a new model now, as I type this with M lens capability in a smaller package? They are always working on something. Anyway, Leica...do NOT change the M line. Its gaining steam and is more popular now that is has been in the last 10 years! Loads of new people are discovering the joys of shooting an RF and most are loving the change of pace.

I must have 200+ emails in my inbox from people who are looking to switch from their big DSLR's to an M9. Problem is they can not find one! My dealers list still has 70-80 people on it. I answer e-mail every day from DSLR switchers who are buying either an M8 or M9. For Leica to change the M design would be a bad move but adding a new camera model to the X and M and S series would be a smart move.

Leica needs to get itself in gear and get these cameras out if they want to take advantage of this surge in popularity.

MR is just a guy with an opinion like all of us. No way Leica will make changes like that to the M camera. If they did it would be all over for them IMO. Like Amy said, does anyone think for a second that if they released an M that was like a m4/3 but priced at $6k that they would get an increase in sales? BZZZZ! Wrong! They would have a decrease because no one would want to buy a Leica that was just a copy of all of these other cameras for 6X the price.

The M is unique and it is also the finest picture taking tool I have ever shot with or owned. It's a different way of shooting and I enjoy it. I do not think it is in any danger of being re-designed and I also do not think the M9 will be replaced anytime soon with an M10.

--
My Leica M9 Images
http://stevehuffphotos.zenfolio.com/p518340588

My Leica M8 Images
http://stevehuffphotos.zenfolio.com/p802740336

My Homeless Project
http://www.pbase.com/stevehuff/the_homeless

Facebook
http://www.facebook.com/stevehuffphotos
 
Well said! You and your site are clear demonstrations that interest in the M is growing. Coupled with falling prices of the M8 and the novelty of the M9, I see more people finding their ways to rangefinders these days....my own experience, locally here in Seattle, is one of piqued curiousity....what camera did you take all those pics with? Woah, cool? How much does that cost? WHat 7K...!?!?! Never mind...hahaha...

But the M8 can be found for $2K these days....which ain't to far from the 7D, 5DII, D300, or D700...

Enjoying this debate...fun stuff...

Well, now it's time for sleep. Will pick things up here in the AM if I can...
--
Ashwin Rao
My blog: http://photos-ash.blogspot.com
My Flickr Sets: http://flickr.com/photos/ashwinrao1/sets/
 
too many exceptional pictures taken with Leicas
through the eyes of those of whom naturally love
& use them with yet another inspired generation
of photographers at the ready to pick up the
rangefinder
 
Agree 100% great article well written and well thought out .I would also be interested in a Leica solution for my R lenses please perhaps someone will write another open letter
charley
 
don't forget Leica beeing a small company with not too much engineering power. Good, well educated engineers, of course, but not enough for all that what customers want. So they must become more and more a technology integrating company, which means: new skills to get. The M9 is part Leica, part Kodak, part Zeiss....We'll see how a small company will get along between all those Nikons and Canons. Personally I believe they are awesome good in optics, but have also problems with the for a quality-cam necessary software-engineering. They maybe must find a stronger partner for that.

Excuse bad english!

-ilk
http://home.fotocommunity.de/blende63
 
I agree with many points in the article.

But, none of that screen on the back of the camera with optional EVF or OVF crap for me please. I have tried other ways, but I prefer having a real viewfinder that I can stick my eye against. I'm not saying it must be optical, I'm just saying it must be there as part of the box, not as some afterthought add-on.

That's it. The rest of the post is about a different approach that fits personal preferences.

If any manufacturer really wants to make me happy, give me two viewfinders if I can't have a rangefinder -- one traditional (with the framelines and all, just without the rangefinder) and one EVF.

There are many differences between TTL and non-TTL viewfinders and they both have their advantages and disadvantages. The thing is, I don't see going from one to the other as real progress. It's just different, something that you may enjoy more or less, depending on your needs and preferences. I own both and would like to have that choice in the future as well. One difference is the whole depth of field issue. With TTL, you basically see what is in focus and then you see some blur in other areas. With non-TTL, you basically see everything in focus. I like that for most of my photography. I find the subtractive process very beneficial and something that allows me to both shoot quickly when needed and generally makes the composing and focusing more relaxed (for me anyway). On the other hand, it isn't as precise as seeing what you get (which TTL generally speaking gives you).

Which one do you want? Currently you can't have both. So, if you want to kill the rangefinder keep the OVF with framelines there anyway. It's no good for judging focus anymore and the subtractive process of estimating DOF is a bit more challenging, but it's still doable. Add an EVF right next to it with advanced manual focusing aids and you have a winner in my books.

--
LJL
 
Change the body? Change the focusing? Well then it's just not a rangefinder
anymore, and I love rangefinders as do a lot of people who shoot with an M.

I never shot a rangefinder before the M8 and I'm sure I'm not all that unique.
I don't think the concept dies because all the film-shooters of old pass on to
the great darkroom in the sky.
I feel very much the same way and I, too, am a very recent rangefinder convert. I find rangefinder focusing easy, fast, intuitive, precise, and reliable. I can appreaciate the fact that some others don't share this view, but it works for me. There are obviously certain limitations with the viewfinder/focusing concept: macro, long focal lengths. But the advantages far outweight those for me, and I have other gear for those few occasions a rangefinder can't do what I really want to do.

Although there is a huge number of people who are okay with manual focus, I'm sceptical about the future of MF-only cameras/lenses in the mass market, be it rangefinder or not. I believe re-inventing the M platform is something that must happen sooner or later, and the rangefinder will become even more of a niche in this process and perhaps die in the digital camera market.

--
LJL
 
I think there are several places in which the article is a little off. The most importnt is the speed of rangefinder focusing at least with a high quality range finder such as found in the M series Leicas. While its true that its not as fast as the auto focus found on the digital slrs it is just about as fast as the slower point and shoots with a bit of practice. Its considerably faster than focusing an slr manually on ground glass.

Rather than do away with the fabulous optical finder I would suggest instead an electronic focus varification that works along with the manual range finder which will greatly speed up focus in confusing situations and in general.

Also if the economics look right Leica may consider making a camera without the optical range finder keeping the viewfinder and using an electronic range finder only.This couls save considerably on the cost of the camera.

I do howver agree with the article that Leica needs to re invent itself and do anouth 21st century M3. Through out the filme based camera shape and design a camera from the ground up to be digital camra. Give it a sqare sensor with electroniclly projected frame lines for either horizontal or virticle orientation so the camera can be optimised for being held in one position. Make the projected frame lines shrink and expand with focusing so as to maintain the almost one hundred percent accuracy of the frame line through out the focusing range. Impliment auto focus for any lense placed on the camera by moving the lens mound or he sensor or both. this would allow an M camera to use zooms by making the above mentioned projected frame lines contract and expand with the zoom.

Allow for to or three different magnifications of the view finder starting with a base of one to one and the .72 and then what ever it takes to get coverage for the 21 mm I think .58 will do the 24.

The whole body could be designed as a grip and perhaps even made equally facile for left handed and left eyed users as well as users wearing eyeglasses.
bosjohn aka John Shick [email protected]
 
Some possible characteristics for a new generation Leica could include:
  • a direct view optical viewfinder with a zoom capability to match the lens in use similar to that used in the last series of Contax cameras.
  • a laser rangefinder similar to those employed in Leica military binoculars
  • autofocus by moving the sensor backwards and forwards enabling the use of existing Leica lenses locked at infinity.
 
I must have 200+ emails in my inbox from people who are looking to switch from their big DSLR's to an M9. Problem is they can not find one! My dealers list still has 70-80 people on it. I answer e-mail every day from DSLR switchers who are buying either an M8 or M9. For Leica to change the M design would be a bad move but adding a new camera model to the X and M and S series would be a smart move.
I agree with your earlier point regarding Leica buzzing, and I agree with your statement above that people are looking to move from their large DSLR systems (I was one of them). However I don't know how many of these people will be happy with a Leica digital rangefinder in the long run, therefore I also agree that it would be a smart move to add a new camera model.

I know that I am happy to have discovered Leica rangefinders, and they have changed my view of photography tremendously, but there are some major obstacles to overcome (or get used to).

How many times do we see posts about front-focus or back -focus lenses?
How many people have problems with their rangefinder focusing being off?

How many people are happy to have to send their camera back to the manufacturer for adjustment every year or two (or less if you treat it roughly)?
How many people want to give up longer lenses?
What about those who have eyes which need some help focusing.
How many people will not also end up owning a DSLR (or M4/3)?

I might not be a typical example on this forum (and don't misunderstand me as I really like this forum and the people on it, and I like my Leicas a lot), but I find it much simpler to go out now with my DLUX-4 in a pocket and my Nikon D40 with 55-200mm lens in the other pocket (winter here so it fits fine) and know that I will be happy. The D40 is lighter than the M8 and more comfortable in my pocket. (I paid under $300 for it with two kit lenses). If I want a challenge then I take a film camera and one lens and go for a walk with that. When I travel i take just the DL4 (although I might start taking the D40 as well). I am happy with the IQ of both the D40 and the DL4. (and if anyone is worried that you can't make super high quality prints from a D40 then they should have a look here http://bit.ly/2Gejp6 ).

I don't think that Leica should discontinue to develop their M series (it's their trademark, sounds silly and dangerous for me to stop) but I do wish that they would build the type of camera that MR referred to (and especially with some focus assist), but I don't expect them to. They own the rangefinder niche right now. It might be small but it's theirs to dominate. Who knows, maybe folks will get used to having a M and a more versatile camera (like the M4/3 or a small DSLR).
 
Just to be clear.. because talking about this subject is akin to being critical of someone's religion... ;)

I hope rangefinders exist for a long time. I intend to get another one day. The M8 worked for me in so many ways.

I hope that Leica will produce a new type of camera that can take advantage of their amazing lens making capability... a camera that will allow Leica to, in a sense, re-invent itself for the 21st centrury. I don't believe the M or S line is that camera.

I do get tired of hearing that Leica can't do this or that because they are a small company. Does Leica wish to stay a small company forever? Are they happy to exist just to cater to a small niche of rangefinder users and Leica collectors? And if so is that a reall roadmap for long term survival in the digital world?

I want to see Leica survive and thriive but I don't see it happening with their present line of cameras and their astronomical price structure... and that is why something new (and affordable) needs to come from Leica... and the X1 is not that something new.
--
Jim Radcliffe
http://www.boxedlight.com
http://www.oceona.com

The ability to 'see' the shot is more important than the gear used to capture it.
 
You speak for me in everything you’ve said in this thread.

There is something about optical viewfinding that is attractive to some photographers. Electronic viewfinding is already quite good and will get better. However, I think there will always be those who want to see real light through the viewfinder rather than a digitised simulation of it. Both reflex cameras and rangefinders cater for this group and, I believe, they will continue to do so for a long time to come.

Similarly, focusing is a skill that some photographers are keen to develop or retain, whether it’s manually through the lens or by means of a coupled rangefinder. Not everyone cares to hand over this basic photographic function to the camera’s electronics.

Leica products aren’t for everyone. It doesn’t cater to a mass market and appears to have no ambitions to do so. It is making a successful transition to digital but in its own time and in its own way. The mirrorless compacts are here to stay but I’m confident that Leica will still be producing rangefinder cameras and lenses when the pioneering micro fourthirds system with its half-frame sensor is a distant memory.

I’m worried about Jim. He often intervenes in threads like this but I’m not convinced that he ever grasped the true nature of Leica the company or the cameras or the market that exists for them. He seems to want Leica to be something it is not and doesn't want to be. Like many others, he doesn’t appear to understand what a small specialist company has to do to make its way in the world. Yes, Jim, Leica is content to stay a (relatively) small company. Of course, it wants to be successful and profitable but there is no evidence that it wants to be big. Big is not necessarily beautiful any more. You may want champagne at mild and bitter prices but you're not going to get it.
 

Keyboard shortcuts

Back
Top