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Is APS-C sensor development stalled?
- Thread starter JimPearce
- Start date
I think we are at the point that it's going to take something new technology wise to go much further. All we've seen for years is improvement in high iso and I believe that is all in the processing in camera. They have managed to keep interest in new items up with the megapixel race and the high iso processing, but it is beginning to look like they both are about maxed out with present technology. When you think about it, when you get to the point where 3200 iso is usable, you are getting in pretty dark surroundings and it's pretty hard to make light brighter in the camera. That's partially why we are seeing the push to add video now, they have to keep finding something to entice buyers until some totally new and innovative comes up. I'm still quite satisfied with the images from my D1H which is going on 9 years old. In fact it's almost impossible to tell the difference in them and my newest model. That's not much advancement in that many years to start with.
n057
Veteran Member
Yes it is, which is why I am hoping the successor APS-C from Nikon will be a big enough incentive for me to upgrade. I do not want to go FX, but I would like an increase in low light capability.
Looking at the DXO results for the D3x set me thinking: it is essentially the same pixel pitch as the D200. I know the D3x uses a much improved sensor, and there are also those EXPEED processors, but still, it would be a nice surprise if some of that pixel magic found its way into the next top-of-the line APS-C incarnation.
JC
Some cameras, some lenses, some computers
Jim Fenton
Senior Member
Jim...
If you think about it, there was probably a 1 stop improvement between the D2X / Xs and the D300 with a complete change of sensor.
I think until they actually develop something new, we're kinda maxed out.
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Jim Fenton
My Wildlife Images at:
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If you think about it, there was probably a 1 stop improvement between the D2X / Xs and the D300 with a complete change of sensor.
I think until they actually develop something new, we're kinda maxed out.
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Jim Fenton
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CAT Productions
Senior Member
Not so sure about that. I've got a D300 and the D3x pixels look better on a "per pixel" basis IMO. Maybe it's the better DR?? I do agree with what you suggested regarding the downsize of the huge D3x files. Loads of details with virtually no noise at ISO 100.
n057
Veteran Member
Not in terms of DR, Color Depth and High Iso.
I would like a future DX top-of-the-line body with better DR, Color Depth and High Iso than the D90. I would even settle for that at 10 megapixels
JC
Some cameras, some lenses, some computers
Given that the Nikon FX high iso advantage (D3s vs D90/D300) compared appear higher than the bigger sensor alone should indicate, I do think that it's certainly possible to improve DX sensor performance even with the technology Nikon uses today in D3s. But I have the impression that most of their development efforts for the time being is concentrated on FX. I think during next year, we will get a better indication if Nikon DX is really the way to go for hobby/enthusiast photographers. Nikon certainly needs do come up with more convincing new DX offerings for the middle-tier cameras than they've done this year. I'm not saying that D90/D300 are not good cameras, just that one of course want to invest in a system that has a future.
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CAT Productions
Senior Member
So I take it you feel that the D90 sensor is about is good as the D3x sensor albeit with less DR?
photonut2008
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I think things were closer with the D3/D700 and it appears that the D3s has moved things forward some in that regard. A good indication would be to compare the DX crop mode from the 12 MP FX DSLRs with what you get from the D300, and if pixel level noise is your sole criteria (which I would consider a mistake), then imagine if Nikon went to 5.1 MP DX sensors.
The D700/D3/D3s are exclusively Nikon technology sensors; whereas the D3x/D300/et al are Sony derived sensors. There appears to be a growing rift between Sony and Nikon, so future DX cameras (perhaps starting with the D400, which will be released concurrent with or after the D4) will be exclusive Nikon designed sensors that will derive capabilities being developed in the current Nikon 12 MP FX sensors.
My guess is that the coming "D800" will be very revealing about what Nikon's course for DX will be. If rumors about the "D800" having less pixel density than the D3x are true (this will put it back to 8 MP DX crop mode) and the sensor is not from Sony, then that will be a strong indication that Nikon will be coming out with their own DX sensor, and probably pursuing their own course relative to Sony and Canon (both of Nikon's competitors are going for more pixel density in their DX sensors).
Personally, I think optimizing pixel density makes more sense than optimizing pixel noise for DX cameras. DX is about two things:
- Adding "reach" to telephoto lenses.
- Appealing to consumers and other cost conscious photographers.
DX will stick around. Frankly though, there's hardly anything to "invest" into DX as far as lenses are concerned. There aren't many expensive DX lenses, and none of them will become obsolete because there is a well established base of DX users.
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Anthony Beach
one thing: Nikon has better sensor technology in the D3s than Canon or Sony currently have shown. I certainly hope Nikon builds this into the D400. But as a wildlife shooter I'd rather see an optimized approach to higher pixel density and lower noise, and I think it is more likely since those of us looking for more reach from very expensive lenses are a very small minority of DX users.
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Jim
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Jim
photonut2008
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Hmmm, so I'm wrong about everything else? Most of the rest is speculation and some opinion anyway -- so no wrong or right there I think.
Choose one as your priority. Would you accept the same noise but higher pixel density, or the same pixel density but less noise? I also suspect that sometimes resolution and high ISO performance are directly at odds with each other even assuming a pixel density constant (differences in CFA and AA for instance).
Yes, very expensive lenses themselves represent a very small minority of photographers in both DX and FX formats. Still, even more moderately priced high powered zooms like the 70-200, 70-300 and 80-400 benefit mightily from more pixel density, and lots of amateurs with more modest budgets aspire to use those lenses at more than 5-6 MP after maxing out the full image circle of those lenses.
Noise at high ISOs is the mantra in the Nikon forums, this one included. I think the problem with that is that if FX eventually comes down some in price, DX can never match it in that regard and the entire premise for DX starts to look shaky. This forum could go away if Nikon pursues high ISO over every other consideration; we'll have plus $2000 FX cameras on one end and a sub $1000 FX camera and some $500 DX cameras at the other end. When you can get your 10-12 MP from the DX crop of the $2000 FX "D500" (or whatever), then there's not much point in having an $1800 DX only camera that's also 10-12 MP.
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Anthony Beach
Interesting thought.
It is apparent to me where Nikon development dollars are going and that is FX.
One need look no further than the D3s release with its' new sensor and substantial improvement as opposed to the 300s warm over.
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Jordan
photonut2008
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I'm not sure about that, and I mean I don't know one way or the other. I think something is going on behind the scenes and we won't know for sure what that is until the "D400" gets released. The D3s is a newer iteration of Nikon's own in-house technology, but the D300s is essentially a repackaging of a Nikon/Sony collaboration. It is notable that Sony has started offering 14 MP APS-C sensors since January and that Nikon didn't stick a variant of that sensor in the D300s; this is why I think the two companies are parting ways on sensor development. Consequently (if I'm right), I think Nikon will come out with successor DX sensor for the D400 and they are probably working on it right now.
I'm glad I'm in both systems. For my DX needs I think Nikon is going to come out with the better sensor, and it will be in my budget. For my 135 format needs though, I think this possible break-up with Sony bodes badly for both companies, but for my purposes I would rather be in Sony's camp than in Nikon's camp. I say this because I want higher resolution at an affordable cost, and I'm betting that Nikon falls behind both in terms of high resolution and affordability for their FX format DSLRs.
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Anthony Beach
jfriend00
Forum Pro
I think we don't know yet. The D2Xs didn't make much progress over the D2X, yet the D300 did make significant progress over both the D200 and the D2Xs. So it appears that sometimes, we just don't get significant sensor advances in the "s" version, even though it's happening behind the scenes for the next major rev.
It would be interesting to know the story about what was really done to give the D3s performance increase over the D3 and to understand why that kind of evolutionary improvement couldn't have been done to the D300s. I assume it's just a case of it was feasible to do an evolutionary improvement to the D3s and not so feasible on the D300s just because of the differences in technology (or perhaps because of the differences in price point), but we don't really have any info on that one way or the other.
As others have said, the D400 will be a more meaningful answer to the question than the D300s was.
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John
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