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Is the D60's sensor too small to stop down past F11?

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Kbone

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I hope this isn't in violation of some forum protocol that I am unaware of, but there is an extremely interesting thread going on in another forum that I think is worth bringing to everyone's attention here. Here is the location:
http://photography-on-the.net/forum/viewtopic.php?TopicID=2975

This thread has been going on for a while. The person who started it seems to really know what he's talking about and to back it up. Before posting questions and refutations within the thread I would suggest reading through its multiple pages. A lot of points have already been made and replied to. This guy is not putting the D60 down, just telling folks they will lose sharpness when printing pictures shot past F11 due to a phenomenon known as "Diffraction's Airy disc". He contends that there are too many pixels for the sensor's size.

Honestly and humbly, a lot of what is being discussed on this thread goes over my (pointed) head. I'm not trying to open up a huge screaming session over this issue, I just think it's worth everyone being aware of the possibilties this gentleman has raised.

I would also ask that if anyone from our forum here decides to take part in the discussion on the other forum that they do so politely. I really think this guy is sincere and not trying to bash the D60. He presents his case very intelligently. If he's right it doesn't mean that the D60 isn't a great camera (it is) but just that if you want optimum results in your prints you should avoid stopping down past F11.

I look forward to hearing the observations of members of this forum concerning this issue.
-Kevin
 
Most people suggest that stopping down past about f/8 - f/16 (depending on the lens) results in poorer optics due to diffraction. This isn't unique at all to the D60.
Kbone said:
I hope this isn't in violation of some forum protocol that I am
unaware of, but there is an extremely interesting thread going on
in another forum that I think is worth bringing to everyone's
attention here. Here is the location:
http://photography-on-the.net/forum/viewtopic.php?TopicID=2975
This thread has been going on for a while. The person who started
it seems to really know what he's talking about and to back it up.
Before posting questions and refutations within the thread I would
suggest reading through its multiple pages. A lot of points have
already been made and replied to. This guy is not putting the D60
down, just telling folks they will lose sharpness when printing
pictures shot past F11 due to a phenomenon known as "Diffraction's
Airy disc". He contends that there are too many pixels for the
sensor's size.
Honestly and humbly, a lot of what is being discussed on this
thread goes over my (pointed) head. I'm not trying to open up a
huge screaming session over this issue, I just think it's worth
everyone being aware of the possibilties this gentleman has raised.
I would also ask that if anyone from our forum here decides to take
part in the discussion on the other forum that they do so politely.
I really think this guy is sincere and not trying to bash the D60.
He presents his case very intelligently. If he's right it doesn't
mean that the D60 isn't a great camera (it is) but just that if you
want optimum results in your prints you should avoid stopping down
past F11.
I look forward to hearing the observations of members of this forum
concerning this issue.
-Kevin
Click to expand...
--
The Unofficial Photographer of The Wilkinsons
http://thewilkinsons.crosswinds.net
Photography -- just another word for compromise
 
DavidP said:
Most people suggest that stopping down past about f/8 - f/16
(depending on the lens) results in poorer optics due to
diffraction. This isn't unique at all to the D60.
Click to expand...
True, but according to this guy the D30 sensor can handle F22 while the D60 starts to suffer at F11.
-Kevin
 
I have noticed my prints are a bit soft when I go below f/16. At first I thought it was motion, but maybr this explains it.
Steve.
Kbone said:
DavidP said:
Most people suggest that stopping down past about f/8 - f/16
(depending on the lens) results in poorer optics due to
diffraction. This isn't unique at all to the D60.
Click to expand...
True, but according to this guy the D30 sensor can handle F22 while
the D60 starts to suffer at F11.
-Kevin
Click to expand...
 
This came up here a while ago. It's a mostly silly argument, IMO.

Any diffraction effects that cause problems for the D30/60 will also cause problems for film since the diffraction effects are optical and have nothing to do with the sensor. The only difference is that because of the 1.6 crop/multiplier, the diffraction effects will be a 1.6X larger relative to the rest of the image. Thus, any diffraction that causes problems on the D30/D60 would cause the same problems if you cropped and enlarged film by 1.6X.

Film photographers have been aware of the effects of diffraction for a long time and this is why people who want the sharpest images shoot at F8 or F11. This doesn't change when using tighter grained film. The only "advantage" to coarser grained film is that the image corruption from the film grain might dominate the image corruption from diffraction. In other words, the grain is a bigger problem than the diffraction.

Moving from the D30 to the D60 is just like moving to tighter grained film. The optics haven't changed. Just continue to keep the 1.6X crop/multiplication in mind and you'll do fine.

--
Ron Parr
FAQ: http://www.cs.duke.edu/~parr/photography/faq.html
Gallery: http://www.pbase.com/parr/
 
Reading through those various posts was an interesting exercise. There are lots of mixed up things being discussed. One interesting point was lightly mentioned but deserves more consideration is the depth-of-field versus frame size versus diffraction limit. The 1.6X crop means that you use a 1.6X smaller focal length to take the same picture. That should automatically improve depth of field by approximately enough to allow you to get the same sharpness at the wider apperature needed to avoid diffraction.

Similar arguments apply to medium format and large format: they can resolve much finer detail but are much more affected by shallow depth of field because they have to use such long focal lengths to take a normal looking picture.
 
Ron Parr said:
This came up here a while ago. It's a mostly silly argument, IMO.

Any diffraction effects that cause problems for the D30/60 will
also cause problems for film since the diffraction effects are
optical and have nothing to do with the sensor. The only
difference is that because of the 1.6 crop/multiplier, the
diffraction effects will be a 1.6X larger relative to the rest of
the image. Thus, any diffraction that causes problems on the
D30/D60 would cause the same problems if you cropped and enlarged
film by 1.6X.

Film photographers have been aware of the effects of diffraction
for a long time and this is why people who want the sharpest images
shoot at F8 or F11. This doesn't change when using tighter grained
film. The only "advantage" to coarser grained film is that the
image corruption from the film grain might dominate the image
corruption from diffraction. In other words, the grain is a bigger
problem than the diffraction.

Moving from the D30 to the D60 is just like moving to tighter
grained film. The optics haven't changed. Just continue to keep
the 1.6X crop/multiplication in mind and you'll do fine.

--
Ron Parr
FAQ: http://www.cs.duke.edu/~parr/photography/faq.html
Gallery: http://www.pbase.com/parr/
Click to expand...
There is a realy great DOF Calculator from Erik Krause on the net.
http://www.erik-krause.de/schaerfe.htm
For here it may be a problem because it is in german.

This calculator can take digital cameras (smaller ccds) and diffraction into account. You can set up your preffered print size , viewing distance and a lot more ...
I have done this for all of my lenses and for enlargements up to 13x19'
The results tell me, that my best aperature normaly is betweeen f11 and f16.
But as Ron Parr mentioned - it depends mostly on your print size
 
Ken Phillips said:
One little detail that I haven't seen mentioned is that the 'hard'
diffraction limit would only apply to a monochrome sensor ... the
softening of the image due to diffraction would to some degree get
lost in the Bayer interpolation!
Click to expand...
Bayer interpolation will tend to soften the image, so if you mean that Bayer interpolation could introduce problems that will be bigger than those caused by diffraction in some cases, then I might agree. Otherwise, I don't think it influences things much. Remember: Diffraction is an optical effect. The photons don't know what kind of sensor they're hitting when they travel through a lens and aperture.

--
Ron Parr
FAQ: http://www.cs.duke.edu/~parr/photography/faq.html
Gallery: http://www.pbase.com/parr/
 
I mean exactly that ...
Ron Parr said:
Ken Phillips said:
One little detail that I haven't seen mentioned is that the 'hard'
diffraction limit would only apply to a monochrome sensor ... the
softening of the image due to diffraction would to some degree get
lost in the Bayer interpolation!
Click to expand...
Bayer interpolation will tend to soften the image, so if you mean
that Bayer interpolation could introduce problems that will be
bigger than those caused by diffraction in some cases, then I might
agree. Otherwise, I don't think it influences things much.
Remember: Diffraction is an optical effect. The photons don't
know what kind of sensor they're hitting when they travel through a
lens and aperture.

--
Ron Parr
FAQ: http://www.cs.duke.edu/~parr/photography/faq.html
Gallery: http://www.pbase.com/parr/
Click to expand...
 
I also spoke about this in another thread (how many pixels are enough). There is a relationship between lens diameter and focal length (F number) as it sets the maximum resolution you can capture. This is related to the Rayleigh Criterion (Most people with large telescopes will know about this as it tells you what the maximum resolution you can see in the sky). The bottom line is the size of the pixels must be matched to the lens for maximum performance. Each pixel must see 2 times (or more) than maximum resolution that the lens can produce (this is the Nyquest criterion)

Just do a search on this and you will find lots of info, or you can start with the below link

http://www.dur.ac.uk/~dph0rgb/OpticsI/optlec/node51.html
Kbone said:
I hope this isn't in violation of some forum protocol that I am
unaware of, but there is an extremely interesting thread going on
in another forum that I think is worth bringing to everyone's
attention here. Here is the location:
http://photography-on-the.net/forum/viewtopic.php?TopicID=2975
This thread has been going on for a while. The person who started
it seems to really know what he's talking about and to back it up.
Before posting questions and refutations within the thread I would
suggest reading through its multiple pages. A lot of points have
already been made and replied to. This guy is not putting the D60
down, just telling folks they will lose sharpness when printing
pictures shot past F11 due to a phenomenon known as "Diffraction's
Airy disc". He contends that there are too many pixels for the
sensor's size.
Honestly and humbly, a lot of what is being discussed on this
thread goes over my (pointed) head. I'm not trying to open up a
huge screaming session over this issue, I just think it's worth
everyone being aware of the possibilties this gentleman has raised.
I would also ask that if anyone from our forum here decides to take
part in the discussion on the other forum that they do so politely.
I really think this guy is sincere and not trying to bash the D60.
He presents his case very intelligently. If he's right it doesn't
mean that the D60 isn't a great camera (it is) but just that if you
want optimum results in your prints you should avoid stopping down
past F11.
I look forward to hearing the observations of members of this forum
concerning this issue.
-Kevin
Click to expand...
 
There is also Dawes limit which relates the size of the lens to the maximum resolution. See link below

http://www.astrosurf.com/taf/pot-ris/pot-ris-eng.htm
Bob Reim said:
Just do a search on this and you will find lots of info, or you can
start with the below link

http://www.dur.ac.uk/~dph0rgb/OpticsI/optlec/node51.html
Kbone said:
I hope this isn't in violation of some forum protocol that I am
unaware of, but there is an extremely interesting thread going on
in another forum that I think is worth bringing to everyone's
attention here. Here is the location:
http://photography-on-the.net/forum/viewtopic.php?TopicID=2975
This thread has been going on for a while. The person who started
it seems to really know what he's talking about and to back it up.
Before posting questions and refutations within the thread I would
suggest reading through its multiple pages. A lot of points have
already been made and replied to. This guy is not putting the D60
down, just telling folks they will lose sharpness when printing
pictures shot past F11 due to a phenomenon known as "Diffraction's
Airy disc". He contends that there are too many pixels for the
sensor's size.
Honestly and humbly, a lot of what is being discussed on this
thread goes over my (pointed) head. I'm not trying to open up a
huge screaming session over this issue, I just think it's worth
everyone being aware of the possibilties this gentleman has raised.
I would also ask that if anyone from our forum here decides to take
part in the discussion on the other forum that they do so politely.
I really think this guy is sincere and not trying to bash the D60.
He presents his case very intelligently. If he's right it doesn't
mean that the D60 isn't a great camera (it is) but just that if you
want optimum results in your prints you should avoid stopping down
past F11.
I look forward to hearing the observations of members of this forum
concerning this issue.
-Kevin
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
 
Bob Reim said:
I also spoke about this in another thread (how many pixels are
enough). There is a relationship between lens diameter and focal
length (F number) as it sets the maximum resolution you can
capture. This is related to the Rayleigh Criterion (Most people
with large telescopes will know about this as it tells you what the
maximum resolution you can see in the sky). The bottom line is the
size of the pixels must be matched to the lens for maximum
performance. Each pixel must see 2 times (or more) than maximum
resolution that the lens can produce (this is the Nyquest criterion)
Click to expand...
There is a subtle point here. You probably already get it, but I want to emphasize it so that there's no confusion among others: The aperture and lens limit the resolution of the image hitting the sensor. Nothing about the sensor can change this. Adding extra resolution can't hurt you, but it could be a waste of money if the detail isn't there to be captured.

--
Ron Parr
FAQ: http://www.cs.duke.edu/~parr/photography/faq.html
Gallery: http://www.pbase.com/parr/
 
I believe there may be some truth to this. I'm no physics expert (anyone have a Phd out there), but my experience with telescopes leads me to think this maybe true.

I still have my D30 and it would be fun to run an experiment on this comparing my D30 to D60 using tripod, same lens and some type of test target using increased focal ratios, then print the images at 8x10 and compare them. I don't really care if the D60 falls off more than the D30 above f/11 as most of my work is done at less than f/8 anyway, in fact mostly less than f/4 (that's why I use these fast/heavy L lens anyway).
I think this would be the best way to prove or disprove this point.

Perhaps there are other forum members with both cameras who would like to run these tests too and we could share our results with each other.

If anyone has input as to the testing parameters, I'm all ears.

I'm thinking using a 50 1.4 at ISO 100 (RAW) at increasing f stop from f8 to f22 in full manual mode taking several shots at each setting and refocusing each time using a constant shutter setting. Tripod with self timer. Use a 550EX flash to compensate for lighting differences from f8 to f22. Then repeat this using the same lens and camera setting on the D60.

Jack
Kbone said:
I hope this isn't in violation of some forum protocol that I am
unaware of, but there is an extremely interesting thread going on
in another forum that I think is worth bringing to everyone's
attention here. Here is the location:
http://photography-on-the.net/forum/viewtopic.php?TopicID=2975
This thread has been going on for a while. The person who started
it seems to really know what he's talking about and to back it up.
Before posting questions and refutations within the thread I would
suggest reading through its multiple pages. A lot of points have
already been made and replied to. This guy is not putting the D60
down, just telling folks they will lose sharpness when printing
pictures shot past F11 due to a phenomenon known as "Diffraction's
Airy disc". He contends that there are too many pixels for the
sensor's size.
Honestly and humbly, a lot of what is being discussed on this
thread goes over my (pointed) head. I'm not trying to open up a
huge screaming session over this issue, I just think it's worth
everyone being aware of the possibilties this gentleman has raised.
I would also ask that if anyone from our forum here decides to take
part in the discussion on the other forum that they do so politely.
I really think this guy is sincere and not trying to bash the D60.
He presents his case very intelligently. If he's right it doesn't
mean that the D60 isn't a great camera (it is) but just that if you
want optimum results in your prints you should avoid stopping down
past F11.
I look forward to hearing the observations of members of this forum
concerning this issue.
-Kevin
Click to expand...
 
All,

Norman Koren has a very detailed and technically accurate description of the loss of detail and sharpness in lenses depending on their aperture size at his site. He also describes in great detail the meaning of DOF and shows diagrams to make the description more clear. I highly recommend it to any one unfamiliar with the subtleties of these optical phenomena as applied to lens systems.

After understanding this you can use the tables he provides to determine the optimally sharp regions of focus and minimum diffraction for all your lenses.

It's somewhat technical but the gritty mathematical details are restricted to boxes that you can skip if you are so inclined.

http://www.normankoren.com/Tutorials/MTF6.html

He also has excellent pages devoted to optimal scanning and printing criteria.

Enjoy!
Kbone said:
I hope this isn't in violation of some forum protocol that I am
unaware of, but there is an extremely interesting thread going on
in another forum that I think is worth bringing to everyone's
attention here. Here is the location:
http://photography-on-the.net/forum/viewtopic.php?TopicID=2975
This thread has been going on for a while. The person who started
it seems to really know what he's talking about and to back it up.
Before posting questions and refutations within the thread I would
suggest reading through its multiple pages. A lot of points have
already been made and replied to. This guy is not putting the D60
down, just telling folks they will lose sharpness when printing
pictures shot past F11 due to a phenomenon known as "Diffraction's
Airy disc". He contends that there are too many pixels for the
sensor's size.
Honestly and humbly, a lot of what is being discussed on this
thread goes over my (pointed) head. I'm not trying to open up a
huge screaming session over this issue, I just think it's worth
everyone being aware of the possibilties this gentleman has raised.
I would also ask that if anyone from our forum here decides to take
part in the discussion on the other forum that they do so politely.
I really think this guy is sincere and not trying to bash the D60.
He presents his case very intelligently. If he's right it doesn't
mean that the D60 isn't a great camera (it is) but just that if you
want optimum results in your prints you should avoid stopping down
past F11.
I look forward to hearing the observations of members of this forum
concerning this issue.
-Kevin
Click to expand...
--

 
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