24 hours later - The M9, M8 and X1

[Jim Radcliffe]

Well, it's been a little over 24 hours since Leica's micro-site and brochure were discovered and we had a look at the specs of the M9. In that 24 hour period I had a few "changes of attitude" toward these products.

The M9

The M9 is the camera the M8 should have been. I don't think anyone can argue that point. 99.9% of all lenses will work as designed on the M9. If Leica got it right, as they imply in their brochure, it will be a camera that should last a very long time and satisfy everyone who wanted a FF M body. I just hope that OLED display lasts as long as the body.

The M9 price will be the biggest hurdle Leica will have to overcome in its marketing of the M9. The M8.2 is currently going for $5,995 on Amazon and I expect that to drop to about $4,995 once the M9 becomes available. I'm guessing the M9 price will be between $7K to 9K.

The M8 and M8.2

I can't see Leica continuing to produce these cameras. I think once the current inventory is sold there will be no more. Leica will continue to support them but for how long? The M8 and M8.2 prices will drop and used ones will become available allowing entry into the Leica club at a much more affordable price. These cameras will also serve as a feeder to the M9 as once you have one and realize your not getting all the M lenses are capable of giving you, you will lust for a FF M. I have felt that way since the first day I had my M8. I wanted it to be FF.

If you hold onto your M8, it may one day be worth more than you paid for it. After all, it was Leica's first digital M and if collectors are still around in the future, who knows what they might pay for one in mint condition... just speculation. My guess is that our grandchildren might reap the benefits, not us. In reality I plan to continue to use my M8 until I can find some way to obtain an M9, it's one of the reasons I wager a dollar or two on the lottery every week.

The X1

At first I was disappointed in the X1 but then I remembered how often I had complained about Leica not having a "real" entry level Leica and I realized that the X1 may well be the perfect camera for a large number of people wanting Leica quality. It may well be the perfect keep with you camera for those who appreciate Leica quality and do not care for having to change lenses and know how to zoom with their feet.

I was disappointed due to the lack of interchangeable lenses and no zoom. But I well remember in years gone by how I made do with cameras with a 35mm lens and quite frankly a fixed focal length lens is not all that bad. This is especially true if that lens on the X1 is so perfectly matched to the sensor and everything about the X1 is "tuned" to perfection for that lens.

My Sigma DP! is a joy to use but for the slowness of the camera. Let's hope that the X1 is fast. If it has a very slow AF and/or difficulty in locking focus then there will definitely be a problem for the X1. Otherwise, I see it as great move by Leica and proof that they have listened.

The X1 price could be a problem. With Panasonic and OLY offering cameras with interchangeable lenses the X1 better be very good at what it does and priced at a point where it will become a feeder camera to bring in new users and make believers out of them for Leica. Most everyone here knows that once you "believe" in Leica you tend to stay with Leica. I can't say the same for other brands.

The X1 actually has the potential to be as big an announcement as the M9. It all depends on whether the images it produces are truly Leica like, edge to edge, the DR is good, the noise is low, the AF is fast and accurate and the price is right.

The X1 is not the digital CL that I wanted but for now, I am just happy that Leica filled a gap that was missing in their own product line and did not rely on rebadging a Panasonic to fill it. I hope the X1 is affordable and a huge success for Leica.

This Could Be The Year Leica Comes Back

With the announcement of these two products this could be Leica's return to greatness and the end of playing catch up in the digital world of photography. I hope both cameras are huge successes for Leica. As I said in an earlier post, Leica is way overdue for a home run.

Let's all hope they got it right this time.

--
Jim Radcliffe
http://www.boxedlight.com
http://www.oceona.com

The ability to 'see' the shot is more important than the gear used to capture it.

 

[Paul Rabideaux]

Well put Jim. As I said in another thread, remember..the minilux came before the minilux zoom. There's a good chance you'll see an X1-zoom down the road. Don't let that stop you from buying an X1 now though because the zoom would most likely have a slower lens ( f-stop ).

Paul

 

[Frank]

With the announcement of these two products this could be Leica's return to greatness and the end of playing catch up in the digital world of photography. I hope both cameras are huge successes for Leica. As I said in an earlier post, Leica is way overdue for a home run.

I definitely think Leica has caught up. The FF digital M is what the M8 should have been. The X1, even without interchangeable lenses, will give many people the opportunity to own a real Leica. I think this is a grand slam.

 

[sm23221689846]

Leica should discount the M9 for current M8 users.

 

[frozenlight]

Well, it's been a little over 24 hours since Leica's micro-site and brochure were discovered and we had a look at the specs of the M9. In that 24 hour period I had a few "changes of attitude" toward these products.

The M9

The M9 is the camera the M8 should have been. I don't think anyone can argue that point. 99.9% of all lenses will work as designed on the M9. If Leica got it right, as they imply in their brochure, it will be a camera that should last a very long time and satisfy everyone who wanted a FF M body. I just hope that OLED display lasts as long as the body.

Indeed Jim. One wonders how they got it so wrong in the first place (IMHO) and further, why it took so long to (apparently... we shall see) get it right. Bravo Leica.

The M9 price will be the biggest hurdle Leica will have to overcome in its marketing of the M9. The M8.2 is currently going for $5,995 on Amazon and I expect that to drop to about $4,995 once the M9 becomes available. I'm guessing the M9 price will be between $7K to 9K.

Personally I think in this price range it will be a bargain... so I hope you are correct. I have already started my list of Nikon and Leica sale candidates to fund this purchase. I now have three 21mm M-mount lenses (keep one), two 35mm Cron's (keep one), two 50mm Cron's (keep one), and a few Nikon digital bodies (D200,2x D300) that will be sacrificed for the greater good.

The M8 and M8.2

I can't see Leica continuing to produce these cameras. I think once the current inventory is sold there will be no more. Leica will continue to support them but for how long? The M8 and M8.2 prices will drop and used ones will become available allowing entry into the Leica club at a much more affordable price. These cameras will also serve as a feeder to the M9 as once you have one and realize your not getting all the M lenses are capable of giving you, you will lust for a FF M. I have felt that way since the first day I had my M8. I wanted it to be FF.

I think you may be right here because of production capacity constraints more than any other reason. After all, Nikon have a healthy DX and FX range... why not Leica? The M8.2 at half the price of an M9 might appeal to many (but not me).

If you hold onto your M8, it may one day be worth more than you paid for it. After all, it was Leica's first digital M and if collectors are still around in the future, who knows what they might pay for one in mint condition... just speculation. My guess is that our grandchildren might reap the benefits, not us. In reality I plan to continue to use my M8 until I can find some way to obtain an M9, it's one of the reasons I wager a dollar or two on the lottery every week.

Me too...!

The X1

At first I was disappointed in the X1 but then I remembered how often I had complained about Leica not having a "real" entry level Leica and I realized that the X1 may well be the perfect camera for a large number of people wanting Leica quality. It may well be the perfect keep with you camera for those who appreciate Leica quality and do not care for having to change lenses and know how to zoom with their feet.

I was disappointed due to the lack of interchangeable lenses and no zoom. But I well remember in years gone by how I made do with cameras with a 35mm lens and quite frankly a fixed focal length lens is not all that bad. This is especially true if that lens on the X1 is so perfectly matched to the sensor and everything about the X1 is "tuned" to perfection for that lens.

My Sigma DP! is a joy to use but for the slowness of the camera. Let's hope that the X1 is fast. If it has a very slow AF and/or difficulty in locking focus then there will definitely be a problem for the X1. Otherwise, I see it as great move by Leica and proof that they have listened.

The X1 price could be a problem. With Panasonic and OLY offering cameras with interchangeable lenses the X1 better be very good at what it does and priced at a point where it will become a feeder camera to bring in new users and make believers out of them for Leica. Most everyone here knows that once you "believe" in Leica you tend to stay with Leica. I can't say the same for other brands.

The X1 actually has the potential to be as big an announcement as the M9. It all depends on whether the images it produces are truly Leica like, edge to edge, the DR is good, the noise is low, the AF is fast and accurate and the price is right.

The X1 is not the digital CL that I wanted but for now, I am just happy that Leica filled a gap that was missing in their own product line and did not rely on rebadging a Panasonic to fill it. I hope the X1 is affordable and a huge success for Leica.

One certainly hopes for Leica's sake the X1 can compete with the GF-1 and E-P1 in terms of IQ, handling, and ergonomics. I would have preferred a digital CL also.

This Could Be The Year Leica Comes Back

With the announcement of these two products this could be Leica's return to greatness and the end of playing catch up in the digital world of photography. I hope both cameras are huge successes for Leica. As I said in an earlier post, Leica is way overdue for a home run.

Let's all hope they got it right this time.

Heartily seconded from the floor.

--
Jim Radcliffe
http://www.boxedlight.com
http://www.oceona.com

The ability to 'see' the shot is more important than the gear used to capture it.

--
Sensorly yours...

 

[markus71]

With the announcement of these two products this could be Leica's return to greatness and the end of playing catch up in the digital world of photography. I hope both cameras are huge successes for Leica. As I said in an earlier post, Leica is way overdue for a home run.

Well spoken, Jim, but you forgot the third great product coming this year: the S2. I am pretty sure that this camera will be also a success in the market.

Yours,
Markus

 

[oldarmstrong]

Jim, thanks for sharing. I share your sentiments exactly. I'm looking forward to the announcements on Wednesday with much anticipation. It's nice to see Leica engaging with photographers again with their products. For awhile they were really out of sync and I hope that these two cameras meet expectation (and maybe even surpass).

First time poster here but I have really appreciated all the dialogue in this forum.

 

[ashwinrao1]

For me, pricing will be the biggest consideration. At this point, I see myself saving for several months towards the M9, and looking at the X1 as an option if it is around $1K to 2K (and with fast AF...the key here, and hopefully the CMOS sensor doesn't dull that elmarit's sharpness also)....If the X1 doesn't hold up, I'll bring my lenses to a GF-1 dealer and see how they perform, and make a difficult decision (X1 vs GF-1)....

It's good to have choices....and better yet to have a FF Rangefinder, finally...gosh I hope they keep the M9 price at 7K or less....anything less would be uncivilized
--
Ashwin Rao
My blog: http://photos-ash.blogspot.com
My Flickr Sets: http://flickr.com/photos/ashwinrao1/sets/

 

[Jim Radcliffe]

With the announcement of these two products this could be Leica's return to greatness and the end of playing catch up in the digital world of photography. I hope both cameras are huge successes for Leica. As I said in an earlier post, Leica is way overdue for a home run.

Well spoken, Jim, but you forgot the third great product coming this year: the S2. I am pretty sure that this camera will be also a success in the market.

I did not forget the S2. I just failed to mention it because in the scheme of things the S2 is not a camera that applies to but a rare few in this forum. Like many others here, I don't think the S2 will be a success. I think it may cost way too much for too little in a market that is already threatened by the existing players and the quality being produced by FF bodies from Canon and Nikon.

--
Jim Radcliffe
http://www.boxedlight.com
http://www.oceona.com

The ability to 'see' the shot is more important than the gear used to capture it.

 

[PRdigital]

I just hope that OLED display lasts as long as the body.

The specs indicate it has the exact same LCD as the M8.

 

[chuckwr]

I concur with everything you say! With regard to continuing the M8.2, I wish Leica would continue it for awhile - if for no other reason than it might keep the value of used ones up! Some potential buyers may even like the smaller sensor of the M8s as it stretches the apparent reach of their tele lenses. However, in reviewing the new brochure for the M9 (unless I missed something) the M8 is not mentioned while the M7 and MP are mentioned. I think that Leica may have already stopped production of the M8.2.

I also think that their is plenty of room for the X1 in the camera market - if Leica doesn't drastically over price it.

 

[Jim Radcliffe]

I just hope that OLED display lasts as long as the body.

The specs indicate it has the exact same LCD as the M8.

Sorry, my bad.. I thought I saw an image of the M9 that featured a color OLED where the current frame counter and battery left indicator sits on the M8.

I've got to go find that image and find out what the hell I was looking at as it sure looked like an M9 top overview.

--
Jim Radcliffe
http://www.boxedlight.com
http://www.oceona.com

The ability to 'see' the shot is more important than the gear used to capture it.

 

[QCR]

Ahhhhhhhhhhhhhh....................................

 

[Joseph S Wisniewski]

Well, it's been a little over 24 hours since Leica's micro-site and brochure were discovered and we had a look at the specs of the M9. In that 24 hour period I had a few "changes of attitude" toward these products.

The M9

The M9 is the camera the M8 should have been. I don't think anyone can argue that point. 99.9% of all lenses will work as designed on the M9.

Technically, about 98%. The samelens (collapsible 50, I think it was) that won't mount on M8 won't mount on M9.

If Leica got it right, as they imply in their brochure, it will be a camera that should last a very long time and satisfy everyone who wanted a FF M body. I just hope that OLED display lasts as long as the body.

The M9 price will be the biggest hurdle Leica will have to overcome in its marketing of the M9. The M8.2 is currently going for $5,995 on Amazon and I expect that to drop to about $4,995 once the M9 becomes available. I'm guessing the M9 price will be between $7K to 9K.

I've heard it's launching at the M8 price. This is not without precedent: Nikon launched the full frame D3 at the same price as the 1.5x crop D2X.

If that's true, expect used M8 prices to plunge. Hopefully not as much as the D2X did (2 years after the D3 launch, used D2X can be had for about $700, or 1/8 of what they went for new).

The M8 and M8.2
I can't see Leica continuing to produce these cameras.

Apparently, neither can Leica.

They're not in the new brochure, just M9, M7, and MP.

I think once the current inventory is sold there will be no more. Leica will continue to support them but for how long? The M8 and M8.2 prices will drop and used ones will become available allowing entry into the Leica club at a much more affordable price. These cameras will also serve as a feeder to the M9 as once you have one and realize your not getting all the M lenses are capable of giving you, you will lust for a FF M. I have felt that way since the first day I had my M8. I wanted it to be FF.

As someone who's had DSLRs for about a decade, I know that feeling.

If you hold onto your M8, it may one day be worth more than you paid for it. After all, it was Leica's first digital M and if collectors are still around in the future, who knows what they might pay for one in mint condition... just speculation.

Well, the Nikon D1 ($5000 new) does seem to be climbing a little. I haven't seen one for under $150 lately. They seem to be up around $200 now.

My guess is that our grandchildren might reap the benefits, not us.

Yup.

In reality I plan to continue to use my M8 until I can find some way to obtain an M9, it's one of the reasons I wager a dollar or two on the lottery every week.

The X1

At first I was disappointed in the X1 but then I remembered how often I had complained about Leica not having a "real" entry level Leica and I realized that the X1 may well be the perfect camera for a large number of people wanting Leica quality. It may well be the perfect keep with you camera for those who appreciate Leica quality and do not care for having to change lenses and know how to zoom with their feet.

I had an uncle who died doing that. All he had was a 50mm normal, and he wanted to take a picture of the moon...

I was disappointed due to the lack of interchangeable lenses

I was flabbergasted.

and no zoom.

Except for the R series, have there ever been Leica zooms?

But I well remember in years gone by how I made do with cameras with a 35mm lens and quite frankly a fixed focal length lens is not all that bad. This is especially true if that lens on the X1 is so perfectly matched to the sensor and everything about the X1 is "tuned" to perfection for that lens.

My Sigma DP!

There is no capital "1"

is a joy to use but for the slowness of the camera. Let's hope that the X1 is fast.

What if it's a rebranded Sigma DP1?

If it has a very slow AF and/or difficulty in locking focus then there will definitely be a problem for the X1. Otherwise, I see it as great move by Leica and proof that they have listened.

The X1 price could be a problem. With Panasonic and OLY offering cameras with interchangeable lenses

And the Panasonic autofocusing like it means business.

the X1 better be very good at what it does and priced at a point where it will become a feeder camera to bring in new users and make believers out of them for Leica. Most everyone here knows that once you "believe" in Leica you tend to stay with Leica. I can't say the same for other brands.

Check the cult mentality on the Sony forum.

The X1 actually has the potential to be as big an announcement as the M9. It all depends on whether the images it produces are truly Leica like, edge to edge, the DR is good, the noise is low, the AF is fast and accurate and the price is right.

The X1 is not the digital CL that I wanted but for now, I am just happy that Leica filled a gap that was missing in their own product line and did not rely on rebadging a Panasonic to fill it. I hope the X1 is affordable and a huge success for Leica.

This Could Be The Year Leica Comes Back

With the announcement of these two products this could be Leica's return to greatness and the end of playing catch up in the digital world of photography. I hope both cameras are huge successes for Leica. As I said in an earlier post, Leica is way overdue for a home run.

I think that will be the M9.

Let's all hope they got it right this time.

And that the "S" doesn't stand for "Sinks Leica".

--
Rahon Klavanian 1912-2008.

Armenian genocide survivor, amazing cook, scrabble master, and loving grandmother. You will be missed.

Ciao! Joseph

http://www.swissarmyfork.com

 

[Joseph S Wisniewski]

With the announcement of these two products this could be Leica's return to greatness and the end of playing catch up in the digital world of photography. I hope both cameras are huge successes for Leica. As I said in an earlier post, Leica is way overdue for a home run.

Well spoken, Jim, but you forgot the third great product coming this year: the S2. I am pretty sure that this camera will be also a success in the market.

I did not forget the S2.

You could. Try a few shots of a nice Vodka. Gray Goose, chilled, should do it.

I just failed to mention it because in the scheme of things the S2 is not a camera that applies to but a rare few in this forum. Like many others here, I don't think the S2 will be a success.

I'm just hoping it doesn't cause dangerous blood loss for Leica.

I think it may cost way too much for too little in a market that is already threatened by the existing players and the quality being produced by FF bodies from Canon and Nikon.

Agreed. Competing in a field where P1 and Blad are so deeply entrenched and the total worldwide market is under 6000 units sounds like a waste of money to me. Yes, the S2 is a DSLR more integrated than a Blad or P1, but Blad an P1 both have 60mm and 68mm sensor products to provide an upgrade path to customers who start with the 55mm sensor, or a "reasonable" starting point to customers who see the folly of the 55mm sensor.

--
Rahon Klavanian 1912-2008.

Armenian genocide survivor, amazing cook, scrabble master, and loving grandmother. You will be missed.

Ciao! Joseph

http://www.swissarmyfork.com

 

[Bo Lorentzen]

Ashwin,

I think they will be civilized.!

--
Bo

DOWNLOAD template for handcoding M lenses

http://bophoto.typepad.com/bophoto/2009/01/m8-coder-simple-manual-handcoding-of-m-lenses.html

Random d-lux4 images - http://bophoto.zenfolio.com/p978526368
Experimental blog - http://www.bophoto.typepad.com
Homepage - http://www.bophoto.com/panos

 

[Bo Lorentzen]

Jim,

Pretty well summarized sir.

Agree that the 9 is what the 8 "should" have been. (but I don't think the 8 was a disaster or regret purchasing a 8. I'm glad they put out what their technology permitted at that time.)

X1.. yeah, that "really" should have had a interchangeable lens option, or at the very least a way to pop off the lens and mount a M adapter for EVF focusing.

Im hoping you score in that lottery so I can enjoy some M9 galleries of the market in Dallas.

Bo

DOWNLOAD template for handcoding M lenses

http://bophoto.typepad.com/bophoto/2009/01/m8-coder-simple-manual-handcoding-of-m-lenses.html

Random d-lux4 images - http://bophoto.zenfolio.com/p978526368
Experimental blog - http://www.bophoto.typepad.com
Homepage - http://www.bophoto.com/panos

 

[Iliah Borg]

There is no capital "1"

--
http://www.libraw.org/

 

[Jim Radcliffe]

Jim,

Pretty well summarized sir.

Just my feeble attempt at communicating my thoughts...

Agree that the 9 is what the 8 "should" have been. (but I don't think the 8 was a disaster or regret purchasing a 8. I'm glad they put out what their technology permitted at that time.)

I'm not saying the 8 is/was a disaster.. I've enjoyed it but the thought that it should be FF was with me from the original announcement and even more so after using the M8 for the last six months or so.. can't even remember when I got it.

X1.. yeah, that "really" should have had a interchangeable lens option, or at the very least a way to pop off the lens and mount a M adapter for EVF focusing.

Yeah, I think they missed a real opportunity there but I'm sure they prefer to sell the M more than the X so there might be a bit shyness about adding an M mount to the X.

You know, no one has seen the back of the X1.. what if it has an internal EVF using some trick technology... look how wide that camera is.. just have to wait and see. But I tell you.. if it has that Leica heft and feel of quality in the hand and produces Leica quality images to boot.. it will be a little jewel.

Im hoping you score in that lottery so I can enjoy some M9 galleries of the market in Dallas.

If I score the lottery I will be moving to Pacific Grove or Monterey... I'm out of Dallas in a heartbeat... You and I can play on the weekends up and down the coast.
--
Jim Radcliffe
http://www.boxedlight.com
http://www.oceona.com

The ability to 'see' the shot is more important than the gear used to capture it.

 

[rhlpetrus]

The M9 price will be the biggest hurdle Leica will have to overcome in its marketing of the M9. The M8.2 is currently going for $5,995 on Amazon and I expect that to drop to about $4,995 once the M9 becomes available. I'm guessing the M9 price will be between $7K to 9K.

I'm staying out, my M Summicron 35 will stay in the shelf (maybe not, m43 is here and getting good, the GF1 is looking nice, see more below re X1).

The X1

I was disappointed due to the lack of interchangeable lenses and no zoom.

Disappointed? THis is a HUGE mistake. And from news not even a nice fixed f/2.8 midrange zoom (24-70mm equiv). I'd pay premium for a compact like that. But even worse, IMO, is Leica staying out of m43. This will be a hit IMO, especially with Panny putting all their efforts behind it. Imagine a nice series of Leica design primes for that, plus some nice zooms and a great body, like 2,000USD.

But I know the answer: Leica can't make a good AF like Panny, just like Oly is struggling in that. And video, forget it. It'd have to be a joint enterprise.

So, my take on this: Leica will continue to struggle, only hope is Panny taking over (problem is that they may have to take over Oly's camera division as well).
--
Renato.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/rhlpedrosa/
OnExposure member
http://www.onexposure.net/

Good shooting and good luck
(after Ed Murrow)