Old Elmar vs. New Elmar

[Mark Ehlers]

Well, I can't say that this is any kind of a controlled test, because it certainly wasn't. But this past Sunday, after I got a good 40-mile bike ride in, I grabbed a few things and head out to my front yard to see what my original 50/2.8, 15-blade aperture Elmar could do and what my new-style 50/2.8 6-blade Elmar-M could do. I loaded up my MP and my M3 with Kodak BW400CN, brought out a lawn chair for me, and a nice comfy blanket for Zoomer. And we began the shoot.

Can you tell which are which?











--

• Mark Ehlers (formerly 'markE')

http://www.pbase.com/marke

'Good street/wildlife photography is a controlled accident,
a vision of preparation and surrender materialized.'

 

[Paul Amyes]

It's very difficult to tell at this resolution on a small laptop screen, but I'd stick my neck out and say that 3 and 4 are from the new version of the lens. Shame there was not more back lighting to get a real idea of the bokeh.

I must say I'd sooner look at test shots of Zoomer rather than boring charts.

 

[jeff hladun]

1. 1 has a couple of perfectly rounded bokeh circles - evidence of the 12 leafed diaphragm?

Also, 3&4 seem to have a more realistic 3D aspect to them, brought on by better micro-contrast, due to better coating, glass, etc.
Photo 3 & 4 are from the new Elmar.
--
http://www.flickr.com/photos/12191517@N05/

 

[Gigibond]

Hi,

I am very interested in the Elmar.. The newer double the price of the older in the mkt.. so tell me your experience. I would use on M6 and maybe on the M8 (if I decide to buy it).

For me: the 2nd and the last one are from the newer one..
--
--
Leica M6 Black Paint (Millenium) + Leica 35mm Summicron F2 ASPH Black Paint
Olympus E-3 + Leica D Summilux 25mm F1.4 + Zuiko Digital 150mm F2
Olympus OM2n + OM Zuiko 50mm F1.2

http://www.flickr.com/photos/95145831@N00/

 

[Mark Ehlers]

I understand that this is difficult to judge at a low resolution. And having a better background to see the characteristics of each lens would also help too. But thanks for playing the game.

I must say I'd sooner look at test shots of Zoomer rather than boring
charts.

That goes for the shooter too. But I guess I've got to get disciplined here and perform a real test.

--

• Mark Ehlers (formerly 'markE')

http://www.pbase.com/marke

'Good street/wildlife photography is a controlled accident,
a vision of preparation and surrender materialized.'

 

[Mark Ehlers]

1. 1 has a couple of perfectly rounded bokeh circles - evidence of the

12 leafed diaphragm?

15 leaf.

Thanks for playing.

--

• Mark Ehlers (formerly 'markE')

http://www.pbase.com/marke

'Good street/wildlife photography is a controlled accident,
a vision of preparation and surrender materialized.'

 

[Mark Ehlers]

If you can find a clean specimen of the older model, I would say go for it. I think it's truly the BEST 50mm M-mount for the price!

Thanks for playing.

--

• Mark Ehlers (formerly 'markE')

http://www.pbase.com/marke

'Good street/wildlife photography is a controlled accident,
a vision of preparation and surrender materialized.'

 

[jeff hladun]

I stand corrected.

By the way, I wish to change my predictions - # 4&5 are from the new lens. I didn't count correctly this morning (it was early)!
--
http://www.flickr.com/photos/12191517@N05/

 

[Mark Ehlers]

The only thing that I prefer with the newer Elmar is that the aperture can be adjusted by half-stops between f/2.8 up to f/8, where as the older style has only full stops. That's kind of nice, but I'm not sure it's worth an extra $300 to $400.
--

• Mark Ehlers (formerly 'markE')

http://www.pbase.com/marke

'Good street/wildlife photography is a controlled accident,
a vision of preparation and surrender materialized.'

 

[Mark Ehlers]

I'll post the correct answers tomorrow.

I stand corrected.
By the way, I wish to change my predictions - # 4&5 are from the new
lens. I didn't count correctly this morning (it was early)!
--
http://www.flickr.com/photos/12191517@N05/

--

• Mark Ehlers (formerly 'markE')

http://www.pbase.com/marke

'Good street/wildlife photography is a controlled accident,
a vision of preparation and surrender materialized.'

 

[Gigibond]

thank you Mark!
--
--
Leica M6 Black Paint (Millenium) + Leica 35mm Summicron F2 ASPH Black Paint
Olympus E-3 + Leica D Summilux 25mm F1.4 + Zuiko Digital 150mm F2
Olympus OM2n + OM Zuiko 50mm F1.2

http://www.flickr.com/photos/95145831@N00/

 

[Koray]

2nd and 4th Old Elmar,
1st, 3rd, and 5th New Elmar.

I recently sold my Canon EOS 30D and many lenses to fund a Leica M6 with the older Elmar. Back to basics!..

K.

 

[Knorp]

Well Mark, it beats me but I'll play anyway, so here is my guess:
1,3,4 new
2,5 old

I hope you will tell us what you see as the difference between the two lenses in these photos !

Kind regards.
Bart

'... feel free to shoot ...'

 

[Mark Ehlers]

Well, you were right in your first guess!

2 & 4 were taken with the old Elmar. 1, 3, & 5 were taken with the modern version. Don't second guess yourself.

Well Mark, it beats me but I'll play anyway, so here is my guess:
1,3,4 new
2,5 old

I hope you will tell us what you see as the difference between the
two lenses in these photos !

So far, I actually haven't seen much difference inIQ, but I really have to do a more controlled test.

When I view the coatings on each lens, both exhibit similar purple and magenta reflections. But the colors are deeper on the modern Elmar, with the older Elmar exhibiting a coating that looks quite similar to what I see on my 1946 50/2 coated Summitar.

But the Summitar seems to be in a league of it's own with lenses of this era. It has a nice softness and lower contrast, which should work pretty darn good as portrait lenses go. And those 10-bladed apertures sure render some nice bokeh. And that was one thing I was looking for when I went searching for an old style Elmar. I just never knew the lens had FIFTEEN blades!!!

Actually, I had considered looking for a modern chrome Elmar for the main lens, but only if I could get one REALLY cheap. And that didn't seem like it was going to happen (new style chrome Elmars are rarer and more expensive than the black ones). And I'm glad it didn't. I think the wait was worth it, as I really wanted to get a (collapsible) lens from the same period as the M3, but still wanted it to offer good IQ.

Anyway, so far I haven't been able to see much difference in sharpness or contrast between these two lenses, although I'm guessing the contrast might eventually show up a bit more with the new version, due to the modern coatings. However, I wouldn't be surprized if, after more careful experiments, that I find the bokeh of the old lens will slant me towards choosing that one over the modern Elmar.

Next week I'll be going out for a three day vacation to play around some more. My first stop is the farmer's market in Madison, Wisconsin. Being the state capitol and a college town makes it great for shooting street. Later in the day, my wife and I are heading to Wisconsin Dells, a great tourist trap. I'll be shooting day-time street, but I'm also intending to recreate some night-time street scenes I shot there 36 years ago. The summer after I started high school, I had just got my first good camera, an Argus STL 100, with Cosina 50/1.8 lens. Bought that black beauty from money saved working my first job, at a car wash. And that summer, I tried my hand at street photography for the very first time, with Kodachrome, no less. When I return there next week, I'llbe shooting Kodachrome again. here are two of those 36 year-old scenes.





After Wisconsin Dells, we're headed over to Baraboo, Wisconsin, home of the Circus World Museum. The old circus wagons should provide some more good material for that good ol' Kodachrome!

Hey, before I forget, what happened to your old user name?

--

• Mark Ehlers (formerly 'markE')

http://www.pbase.com/marke

'Good street/wildlife photography is a controlled accident,
a vision of preparation and surrender materialized.'

 

[Knorp]

Well, you were right in your first guess!

2 & 4 were taken with the old Elmar. 1, 3, & 5 were taken with the
modern version. Don't second guess yourself.

Frankly I think I did pretty well with 3 out of 5. Obviously I was looking for the fingerprints like; contrast, specular highlights, etc but I found it very difficult to spot any in the samples you showed us for scrunity.

Well Mark, it beats me but I'll play anyway, so here is my guess:
1,3,4 new
2,5 old

I hope you will tell us what you see as the difference between the
two lenses in these photos !

So far, I actually haven't seen much difference inIQ, but I really
have to do a more controlled test.

Yes, you have !

When I view the coatings on each lens, both exhibit similar purple
and magenta reflections. But the colors are deeper on the modern
Elmar, with the older Elmar exhibiting a coating that looks quite
similar to what I see on my 1946 50/2 coated Summitar.

But the Summitar seems to be in a league of it's own with lenses of
this era. It has a nice softness and lower contrast, which should
work pretty darn good as portrait lenses go. And those 10-bladed
apertures sure render some nice bokeh. And that was one thing I was
looking for when I went searching for an old style Elmar. I just
never knew the lens had FIFTEEN blades!!!

Amazing, I wonder what might be the reason to have such variaty in the number of blades. Any clue ? It seems related to the older lenses, perhaps it's due to advancing technology that enabled to use larger and therefore less blades ?

Actually, I had considered looking for a modern chrome Elmar for the
main lens, but only if I could get one REALLY cheap. And that didn't
seem like it was going to happen (new style chrome Elmars are rarer
and more expensive than the black ones). And I'm glad it didn't. I
think the wait was worth it, as I really wanted to get a
(collapsible) lens from the same period as the M3, but still wanted
it to offer good IQ.

Anyway, so far I haven't been able to see much difference in
sharpness or contrast between these two lenses, although I'm guessing
the contrast might eventually show up a bit more with the new
version, due to the modern coatings. However, I wouldn't be surprized
if, after more careful experiments, that I find the bokeh of the old
lens will slant me towards choosing that one over the modern Elmar.

Of course if you're looking for soft then the old lens should be the one, although the way the OOF renders might to be seen yet.

Next week I'll be going out for a three day vacation to play around
some more. My first stop is the farmer's market in Madison,
Wisconsin. Being the state capitol and a college town makes it great
for shooting street. Later in the day, my wife and I are heading to
Wisconsin Dells, a great tourist trap. I'll be shooting day-time
street, but I'm also intending to recreate some night-time street
scenes I shot there 36 years ago. The summer after I started high
school, I had just got my first good camera, an Argus STL 100, with
Cosina 50/1.8 lens. Bought that black beauty from money saved working
my first job, at a car wash. And that summer, I tried my hand at
street photography for the very first time, with Kodachrome, no less.
When I return there next week, I'llbe shooting Kodachrome again. here
are two of those 36 year-old scenes.

I remember these photos Mark and I can't wait to see how you will cope 36 years later !

After Wisconsin Dells, we're headed over to Baraboo, Wisconsin, home
of the Circus World Museum. The old circus wagons should provide some
more good material for that good ol' Kodachrome!

That sounds like it's going to be great fun !

Hey, before I forget, what happened to your old user name?

Don't Mark, it has been like 'knorp' all the time, but perhaps developing your own film with all those chemicals is not such a good idea after all ... )) ROTFLMAO

--

• Mark Ehlers (formerly 'markE')

http://www.pbase.com/marke

'Good street/wildlife photography is a controlled accident,
a vision of preparation and surrender materialized.'

BTW - did I tell you that your Ice-Blue M3 looks Übercool ?

No ? Well it certainly is ! I think it's bold and daring, so good for you my friend !

Happy shooting and enjoy your vacation !
Bart

'... feel free to shoot ...'

 

[Peter Nelson]

That's the real difference to me between your images by your 2 50mm Elmar Collapsible lenses.

I have 2 Russian 50mm f/3.5 Collapsible Elmar copies a Zorki and a Fed and I think they both have 8 blades. The older lens has a final aperture of f/18. Either lens presents a round aperture.

My Leica 50mm f/2 Summitar has such a complicated blade structure I can not say what it is. It looks like 6 sets of multiple type blades. But still it presents a rather squared of aperture.
--
Life as an artist has had some unusual times to say the least.
visit my web site http://www.flickr.com/photos/artist_eyes/
Remember to click on 'All Sizes' for better viewing.
Artist Eyes

 

[Mark Ehlers]

My Leica 50mm f/2 Summitar has such a complicated blade structure I
can not say what it is. It looks like 6 sets of multiple type blades.

Peter, I think I know what type of blade design you're talking about. If it's the one I'm thinking of, the cut of the blades seems like nothing else I've seen before. Very complex, if I recall.

--

• Mark Ehlers (formerly 'markE')

http://www.pbase.com/marke

'Good street/wildlife photography is a controlled accident,
a vision of preparation and surrender materialized.'

 

[Peter Nelson]

Mark,

I have only this one lens anong around 50 that has the unusual aperture blades. I'm using it more. Still even with the unusual blades the aperture is not round.

I have discovered that my M5 with any of my collapsible 50's and also my Leica 35mm f3.5 Summaron will indeed fit into my front pants pocket. So now I carry it and 2 lenses-35mm and 50mm. I am also finding that a metered camera like my M5 speed's me up. That's usefull in varying lighting conditions and when I'm shooting people who are holding a smile for the camera. For landscapes I still prefere the Sunny 16 rules and a meterless Barnack camera.

My Leica 50mm f/2 Summitar has such a complicated blade structure I
can not say what it is. It looks like 6 sets of multiple type blades.

Peter, I think I know what type of blade design you're talking about.
If it's the one I'm thinking of, the cut of the blades seems like
nothing else I've seen before. Very complex, if I recall.

--

• Mark Ehlers (formerly 'markE')

http://www.pbase.com/marke

'Good street/wildlife photography is a controlled accident,
a vision of preparation and surrender materialized.'

--
Life as an artist has had some unusual times to say the least.
visit my web site http://www.flickr.com/photos/artist_eyes/
Remember to click on 'All Sizes' for better viewing.
Artist Eyes