KEITH-C
Veteran Member
So Nikon are on the move again- the D5000 has 12MP sensor,Live View,movies & tiltable pull-out LCD. It will be interesting to see what Sony have in the Summer.
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Sony are in a unique position to capitalize on their fast liveview. Will they? and when?
The competition liveviews are so slow that they are severely restricted to essentially tripod mode and still photography. Their movie mode cannot follow any moving subject. It is not very interesting to take a movie of a still subject.
They have helped established the expectation of liveview and movies in a DSLR, now Sony can offer a truly usable implementation. This is a golden opportunity to leap-frog the others. Will they?
The competition liveviews are so slow that they are severely restricted to essentially tripod mode and still photography. Their movie mode cannot follow any moving subject. It is not very interesting to take a movie of a still subject.
They have helped established the expectation of liveview and movies in a DSLR, now Sony can offer a truly usable implementation. This is a golden opportunity to leap-frog the others. Will they?
Frenske
Veteran Member
KEITH-C
Veteran Member
.... could the A350 have movies with its current implementation of LV ?
Keith-C
Keith-C
Geir Eivind Mork
Veteran Member
I would guess 'record what is sent to the screen' would be easy. Will not have the adventages concerning dof that the big sensor sampling has - but none of the disadventages. They could give you 1080p with a decent framerate without having to do much hardware changes beside replace the lv sensor with one who do that resolution.
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Kiril Karaatanasov
Veteran Member
the A300/A350 LV sensor is about 300x200 pixels. The movies will be worse quality than shooting with mobile phone
DOF will be there as the focal length does not change i.e. same lens same DOF.
The LV sensor is smaller the light that gets to it is less than that going to the main sensor and thus such system will exhibit lots of noise i.e. near useless in anything but bright daylight.
Please note - DOF is function of aperture and focal length not sensor size!!!! Sensor size has impact on compact cameras as the focal lengths of the lens are decreased i.e. some hyper zooms have lens that are 7mm to 70mm.
DOF will be there as the focal length does not change i.e. same lens same DOF.
The LV sensor is smaller the light that gets to it is less than that going to the main sensor and thus such system will exhibit lots of noise i.e. near useless in anything but bright daylight.
Please note - DOF is function of aperture and focal length not sensor size!!!! Sensor size has impact on compact cameras as the focal lengths of the lens are decreased i.e. some hyper zooms have lens that are 7mm to 70mm.
blakeSLO
Leading Member
This sounds logical, but i did much research on the subject and its just not right. There is a third, (albiet less important) factor. The DOF equation contains this pesky little "c".... which represents circle of confusion.
Wiki explains it well:
Enlargement from the original image (the focal plane image on the film or image sensor) to the final image (print, usually). If an 8×10 original image is contact printed, there is no enlargement, and the CoC for the original image is the same as that in the final image. However, if the long dimension of a 35 mm image is enlarged to approximately 25 cm (10 inches), the enlargement is approximately 7×, and the CoC for the original image is 0.2 mm / 7, or 0.029 mm.
Put it this way, if you use a 50mm lens on a 35mm still camera and then put the same lens on a movie camera, they will have different APPARENT DOF due to image enlargment/viewing distance.
(Movies shot on 35mm are enlarged 1000% and viewed at large distances on a big screen, while still images are rarely enlarged past 30 by 40 inches... much lower magnification, smaller viewing distance)
This third variable to DOF seems confusing and I used to dismiss it as well until i started looking at the equations that determine DOF and that pesky "c" wouldnt go away.
Let me put it more simply. In order to produce an 8X10 image. The APS camera requires more magnification (anticipated enlargement factor) in order to produce the print than the 35mm camera.
Equation: CoC Diameter Limit (mm) = anticipated viewing distance (cm) / desired print resolution (lp/mm) for a 25 cm viewing distance / anticipated enlargement factor / 25
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-Blake
Find the lens that enables you to capture your vision, not what others use to capture
theirs.
They will need a new secondary sensor, may be similar to the sensors they use in their HD video cameras.
The total light is less than for the main sensor. But, I would think that given the smaller number of pixels, the light per pixel might actually be larger. May be larger than the light per pixel of video cameras.
I believe there is a separate discussion regarding the DOF. I do not see it as a problem.
There is also the issue of focus marks on the screen. I would think that there might be a way to avoid them while in movie mode.
The whole thing would be complex. Much more complex than a camera with an EVIL design such as the Panasonic. So price might be an issue, however, the autofocus speed could remain a distinct advantage.
Geir Eivind Mork
Veteran Member
I said "beside replace the lv sensor with one who do that resolution". Which is the entire point in my post.
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headofdestiny
Veteran Member
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How would Sony get rid of the viewfinder AF marks if they used a secondary sensor for Movie mode? The main reason that the Sony LV works so well with AF would be it's biggest detriment to video. It's time for Sony to suck it up and introduce main sensor live view and movie mode.
How would Sony get rid of the viewfinder AF marks if they used a secondary sensor for Movie mode? The main reason that the Sony LV works so well with AF would be it's biggest detriment to video. It's time for Sony to suck it up and introduce main sensor live view and movie mode.
OldClicker
Veteran Member
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I certainly think it would be a step backwards to remove the fast AF secondary sensor just for video. - TF
moleculaire
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I just want newer alpha APS-C size cameras! First Olympus at PMA, then Canon with the 500d now Nikon with the d5000.
Sony show us some Luv! Alpha A250, or A800 of A400 whatever you want to call it, just give us updated version with new goodies more + - ev on smaller model, less noise at high iso, better IQ. Better IS, better in camera flash (lol). SOmething!
We need something new to be feel in the competition with nikon and canon. They will be eating the market share with their new model, unless sony comes up with something.
Sony show us some Luv! Alpha A250, or A800 of A400 whatever you want to call it, just give us updated version with new goodies more + - ev on smaller model, less noise at high iso, better IQ. Better IS, better in camera flash (lol). SOmething!
We need something new to be feel in the competition with nikon and canon. They will be eating the market share with their new model, unless sony comes up with something.
There are several ways sony can go on the video front. Given their development work on the secondary sensor I wouldn't be surprised if they kept this, but they need a digital screen to allow focus lines to be toggled on and off. I think this is doable, and would allow a modestly increased resolution sensor to capture HD film and autofocus at the same time. In many ways they would have an ideal solution, with some tangible advantages over the competition; autofocus while filming, no overheating of the main sensor to name just two.
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Chad Marek
Veteran Member
Totally agree.
Sony is in a better position to take advantage of movie mode than any of the other makers using main sensor LV.
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It is ALL a conspiracy!
Sony is in a better position to take advantage of movie mode than any of the other makers using main sensor LV.
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It is ALL a conspiracy!
Chad Marek
Veteran Member
The LV sensor gets the exact same amount of light that the main sensor gets. The light either goes to the main sensor (when taking the picture) or the mirror is down and the light goes into the viewfinder.
Additionally, a movie-tuned secondary sensor does not need to be as densly packed with photosies, so the pitch would be better.
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It is ALL a conspiracy!
fjbyrne
Veteran Member
I agree that having AF during the video operation would be a great feature.
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Rick
headofdestiny
Veteran Member
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I didn't say remove the secondary sensor. Sony could do both, which would be logical, and wouldn't cost much in development.
Chad Marek
Veteran Member
Not to mention confusing to the newbies the camera is targeted at.
Oh, and don't forget the passive admission (right or wrong) that Sony's implementation of LV was in some way inferior.
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It is ALL a conspiracy!
C
ck3
Guest
No, it doesn't. There are three mirrors and a focus screen sitting between the light leaving the lens and the LV sensor.
headofdestiny
Veteran Member
Oh, not at all. I think that the secondary sensor live view is very clever, and great for faster AF. I'm just saying that Sony should add the more common, main sensor live view, as well, in order to facilitate movie mode and critical focusing on a tripod. It would be the best of both worlds. Maybe Sony should rename main sensor live view in order to not confuse it with their current LV setup. Direct feed, maybe? Also, ck3 is correct in that the light that feeds the secondary LV sensor bounces off of a few mirrors and goes through a focus screen, and then the secondary sensor gains up in order to simulate the exposure lost in the live view chain. I just don't see Sony's current implementation of secondary sensor live view as a logical way to get video into their DSLRs. Smaller sensor, less light hitting it, AF points and various focus screen issues.
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