Need advice on shooting theater

shooterchic

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Heya,

I'm trying to shoot a theater group without flash. They will be moving on stage, but not too much.
The set up is a dark theater--all black, with stage lighting.

I have a D70 and a tripod.

I can't use external flash.

What lens and settings would you recommend in this type of setting?

Thanks in advance....
 
Tough setting. You'll be needing high iso, probably near the max of your camera. The high contrast setting and black background can fool the auto exp and white balance.

Use your fastest lens. An f/1.4 would be very nice, though you may need to stop down a touch for DOF and to get in the sweet spot of the lens.

Personally, I prefer a monopod for settings like this. Can move and track better, less cumbersome and easier to move around than using a tripod.

Also, for situations like this, I prefer to use manual exposure. Take some test shots, and dial the exposure (iso/shutter/fstop) until you're getting good exposures without blownout skin tones. These are high contrast situations, so it's hard to avoid blow outs at either end. So you do the best you can, which is typically to get the skin tones right. If you have a chance to do a custom white balance, even better. But if not, use manual white balance so that at least its consistent from shot to shot. That really simplifies post-processing.

I much prefer to shoot raw at high iso. Jpeg compression accentuates the noise, and is harder to clean up. Raw also preserves some extra latitude, but don't count on it to save the highlights or shadows.

Also because of noise, its best to avoid cropping your images. So try to frame your pics well as you're shooting.

Since folks will be moving around, you'll probably want a shutter speed of 1/60 or so. Getting it much lower results in motion. Which is not bad, just something to be aware of.

Jeff
Heya,
I'm trying to shoot a theater group without flash. They will be
moving on stage, but not too much.
The set up is a dark theater--all black, with stage lighting.

I have a D70 and a tripod.

I can't use external flash.

What lens and settings would you recommend in this type of setting?

Thanks in advance....
--
Jeff
 
I am not normally a Nikon shooter, but there is lots of crossover.

lens.. 70-200 f/2.8 (I think the Nikon is only available with VR)

settings.. as high ISO as you are comfortable with. 800 would be a good place to start. 'stage lighting' varies so much that beyond general suggestions are next to useless. aperture set for the DOF you want/need, likely from f/2.8-f/4.5. shutter speed will need to be 1/60 or faster (at a bare minimum - 1/125 would be a good start). frame wide so you get the coverage you want, and crop later.

have fun and experiment!

cheers,
S.
--
My XT IS Full Frame -- APS-C/FF of course!
So is my 5D -- 35mm/FF
 
Heya,
I'm trying to shoot a theater group without flash. They will be
moving on stage, but not too much.
The set up is a dark theater--all black, with stage lighting.

I have a D70 and a tripod.

I can't use external flash.

What lens and settings would you recommend in this type of setting?

Thanks in advance....
I used to do a lot of theatre photography of school plays (so it's been a while). A few points to bear in mind...

With black backgrounds and a few spotlit areas you can't rely on auto metering. If you can, take a spot meter reading off an area of average luminance like mid-toned clothing and set that manually. Take a test shot and check the histogram. As long as the lights don't change you're fine.

You will need high ISO (at least 800, probably 1600) and a wide-aperture lens. Focal length depends how far away you are, of course. If you are shotting from the back of the theatre then you're probably going to want something expensive like a 70-200 f/2.8. If you can get a lot closer (I used to stand in the wings and right at the front of the stage to get pics during dress rehearsals) then you won't need something so extreme, and a cheapo 50mm f/1.8 might be fine.

I shot this recently during 'Pirates of Penzance' at my son's school, from half way back in the audience - black apart from the direct lighting on the group, ISO1600, 1/60 at f/4.



Finally, search for the posts of Chris Elliott, who does a lot of theatre / stage photography with Nikon gear (including a D70 I think) and has posted several examples with useful info about how they were done.

Best wishes
--
Mike
 
An older but still awesomely useful guide to this sort of stuff is:

http://photo.net/learn/concerts/mirarchi/concer_i

Talks about film but is just as applicable to digital.

I'd also recommend having a look at the Ultimate Exposure Computer:

http://www.fredparker.com/ultexp1.htm

I do some stage photography and the lighting seems to be about EV 7 most of the time - using that last link you can go down to the table of Exposure Relationships and see what ISO, f/stop and shutter speed go together for which light level - I absolutely rely on this for difficult lighting situations
 
Been there done that and got the T shirt for this sort of thing. I shoot now with a D50 and D80 to broaden the focal range I can cover. I sometimes use 3 cams!

The basics:

1. Shoot RAW and PP

2. Use the Incandescent WB preset. (Mostly you cannot set a WB because the lighting colour changes all the time.)

3. You are likely to need circa ISO 1600 f/2.8 and 1/60th. So you will need f/2.8 constant zooms or primes. You can see what lenses I have in my Profile. (Lighting varies enormously from stage to stage and set to set)

4. Often with a black set you will underexpose at ISO1600-f/2.8-1/60th. You will have to push process your shots in that situation.

5. Set single area focus. Turn off the focus assist beam (and the focus beep!).

6. As for metering there is no easy solution. In a church with constant lighting I shoot Manual taking test shots but when photographing a stage dress rehearsal the lighting constantly changes so that is not possible and, usually, theatre time is money so there is just one real onstage rehearsal so you have no chance for test shots on an earlier occasion. I use Matrix Metering. It usually gets it nearly right and I can PP the rest. In long scenes I can check for Spot readings and apply some exposure compensation if appropriate. Sometimes I just know it is wrong and overide it (but shooting two cams you have your hands full anyway).

7. Set you cam(s) up to get good closeup shots and then try your best to get wide angle for context shots as well. Shots which show the whole of the stage with miniature figures on it quickly get boring. You want to capture facial expressions (and sometimes in strong shadows).

8. Try to get a few angled shots on a monopod for variety. (I like to use my 50mm f/1.4 for these shots)

9. Shoot lots and be highly selective as to which to PP (I typically shoot 400-500 shots but try not to exceed 50 shots online for each production).

10. Be prepared to spend lots of time doing PP. You may have one second to get the shot. If need be you have hours to get the best out of it.

11. Take look at my recent galleries they may help a little (but do bare in mind a) that I am shooting RAW and the recorded exif may be a stop or more way from where I end up with the finished product and b) I am sometimes on stage and therefore reliant on others to take shots at that time (another reason why I stick with MM). So if the exposure settings are odd I was probably thinking that too!)

12. You may want to think now about how best to present your photos to the theatre group. I used to produce CDs for everybody but that got time consuming. A photo gallery is better.

Constant f/2.8 zooms rarely exceed 3x zoom. This is a bit limiting. If you can borrow a 2nd Nikon body that would be very useful. You can then keep lenses mounted and do the minimum of changing in the dark. If you are able to go down that line you can mount both cams on a T bar on your tripod (Fairly cheap to acquire via Ebay) or use the 2nd cam on a monopod (Try asking the theatre group. Someone may have accesss to a say a D50. That is how I got access to my 3rd body!). If you do this it is essential to synchronise the clocks on all cams!!!

If there is more than one dress rehearsal you can shoot different lenses for each rehearsal (Oh luxury!!).

Lenses:

cheap and cheerful (but effective):
Nikon 50mm f/1.8 (or better f/1.4)
Nikon 85mm f/1.8

better:

a WA f/2.8 (I use my Sigma 17-70 f/2.8-4.6 at 17mm f/2.8) as if a prime. There are no cheap and good primes that wide)
Tamron 28-75 f/2.8
Sigma 24-70 f/2.8
Nikkor 35-70 f/2.8

best:
Nikkor 80-200 f/2.8 (mine is a D ED two ring with tripod mount)
Nikkor 70-200 f/2.8 VR

Hope that helps. Do come back if you have any specific questions.

These galleries should give you some ideas:-

http://PlacidoD.zenfolio.com/p16885626

http://PlacidoD.zenfolio.com/p1045531707

http://PlacidoD.zenfolio.com/p43741400

But by all means look at them all,. hopefully they show some sort of learning curve over the years!!

--
Chris Elliott

Nikon D Eighty + Fifty - Other equipment in Profile

http://PlacidoD.Zenfolio.com/
 
'stage lighting' varies so much that beyond
general suggestions are next to useless.
This is a situation for Auto ISO if he has it on his camera. Any light changes (Increases, decreases or direction of lighting) will automatically be taken care of by Auto ISO.

If you are using a tripod, turn off VR. If you are able to zoom in close to the subject you could use center weighted metering. If not use spot.

--

FINE PRINT: I reserve the right to be wrong. Should you prove me wrong, I reserve the right to change my mind.
 
This is a situation for Auto ISO if he has it on his camera. Any
light changes (Increases, decreases or direction of lighting) will
automatically be taken care of by Auto ISO.
I'll second this!
I never use Auto ISO. Your comments have made me stop to analyse why:

1. It can be disconcerting to have a whole series of photos of an opera or a play where just one or two have significantly less noise than others. The eye gets used to a level of noise. This is probably my least good reason for not using it! But certainly the occasional MORE noisey shot which I often have to put up with when the lighting mood is very low key (or someone fails to stand in the spotlight!) irritates me.

2. On the D80 using ISO Auto I cannot get any ISO above 1600 which occasionally I need.

3. I surrender control to the cam if I use ISO Auto with little or no time to change settings. The shot below will serve as a bad illustration of a good point:



D80 f/4 1/60th ISO 1600 50mm f/1.4

I had to balance movement of his left hand across from the right of his body to be outstreched to the left (and then withdrawn) against the necessary depth of field for two subjects far apart. I really needed at least f/5.6 to get enough depth of field to include both subjects who were on opposite sides of a full size commercial stage. I shoot in Shutter Priority. I worked my way up from f/3.5 through f/4 and on towards f/5.6 (and focused on his left knee) reducing shutter speed as I went trying to stop the action but also to achieve enough DOF. I just about managed to squeeeze enough DOF out to make this shot work (using different levels of sharpening on my different subjects). Had I used auto ISO with 1/60th as my bottom end I would have had no idea of the margins i had to play with. f/4 1/60th ISO 800 would become f/2.8 1/60th f/2.8 (assuming ISO 800 was my base) ruining the shot.

4. If you have the ISO constantly changing in the dark you can lose your bearings and judgement. That applies even more if you are shooting with two cams.

I should perhaps explain to make sense of the above that I shoot what could be described as "semi-manual" - shutter priority 1/60th and if the aperture gets above f/3.2 I will usually bump the speed up to stop subject motion and reduce to f/2.8. If the light conditions go below 1/60th f/2.8 ISO 1600 I underexpose and push the shot in PP. I could and sometimes do go for complete Manual and watch the analogue meter to decide upon any change to my settings. Were I in ISO Auto I would never know how much reserve capacity I had.

I hope all the above makes sense!

If ISO Auto had some means of letting you know how much you had "in the tank" - logically by displaying the actual ISO in the VF - things might be different.

--
Chris Elliott

Nikon D Eighty + Fifty - Other equipment in Profile

http://PlacidoD.Zenfolio.com/
 
Not using Auto ISO in this situation will probably result in several under/over exposed pictures or missed pictures while you fumble with controls.

Perhaps you are experienced enough to be able to work without Auto ISO. If so, that's fine. However, I have found that without it - in situations such as the theater - I would have missed many shots.

--

FINE PRINT: I reserve the right to be wrong. Should you prove me wrong, I reserve the right to change my mind.
 
since you are starting out in this field, having little or no experience, Auto ISO will help you in the beginning, as it will allow you to concentrate more on your framing and timing rather than fiddling with the camera and missing shots. I have not had a camera with Auto ISO, so didn't think of it when I made my original post.

Also agree that turning off VR/IS when you are on a tripod is a good idea. The 70-200 will be a good lens to work with if you are between 5 and 10 rows back from the stage. if you are at the back of the theater, it will likely be too short for any kind of tight shots. Another poster suggested shorter lenses, and those will work if you can get close enough... but you will be handholding only, no tripods generally permitted in the wings or right up front - you distract the audience when down in front.

cheers,
S.
--
My XT IS Full Frame -- APS-C/FF of course!
So is my 5D -- 35mm/FF
 
Not using Auto ISO in this situation will probably result in several
under/over exposed pictures or missed pictures while you fumble with
controls.
I do not fumble with controls. I shoot ISO 1600 and 1/60th or higher shooting RAW. Shooting RAW gives you latitude. Regularly shooting ISO 1600 means I rarely need to change. I am working at the margins with f/2.8 and 1/60th anyway. On a bright stage I am pleased to have 1/100th and f/4 or whatever and, I am far less likely to encounter serious noise with a photo exposed well to the right. My more common problem is underexposure and having to push the shot which will bring up noise. That requires very careful PP to minimise noise.
Perhaps you are experienced enough to be able to work without Auto
ISO. If so, that's fine. However, I have found that without it - in
situations such as the theater - I would have missed many shots.
I fail to see how that can be? If you shoot ISO 1600 and Shutter or Aperture priority there are only two variables which are interelated. You change one and the other automatically changes. If you introduce a further variable you lose control because it is difficult to predict which of the other two variables will change. Maybe you lose the opportunity of an ISO 800 shot and get an ISO 1600 one instead but it is difficult to see how one can miss the shot when one is more in control! Are you shooting Manual with ISO Auto as the only variable? If so how do you know that you have spare headroom and can shift from 1/60th @ 800 ISO to 1/120th @ ISO 1600 to stop the action? (Are we both speaking of Nikon bodies?). At least doing things my way you can see what latitude you have to play with.

I presume you start with an ambition to shoot ISO 800 and sometimes have to change ISO to 1600 or whatever? Maybe your stages are far more brightly lit than mine: This was Nabucco three weeks ago:



D50 1/60th f/2.8 17mm



D50 1/60th f/2.8 ISO 1600 80-200 at 80mm

Shooting on average over 3 shots per minute there is little time to make adjustments especially when working with two or more cameras covering different focal lengths. An occasional shot metered at 3 stops brighter than the above (The wardrobe lady made sure ther were large patches of white on most costumes!!) but that gave me the luxury of more shutter speed, lens resolving power and DOF.

I think our philosophies are different. I am looking for a good photographic record of an entire event. Maybe you are looking for just a few "money" shots? Nothing wrong with that but it explains our different ways of working.

--
Chris Elliott

Nikon D Eighty + Fifty - Other equipment in Profile

http://PlacidoD.Zenfolio.com/
 
Those are great pictures. There is no doubt the system you use works for you. I would not even try to change your mind. However, for people like myself who is a hoobyist and does not "specialize" in theater shots, or for a new photographer, I think my comments are valid.
Not using Auto ISO in this situation will probably result in several
under/over exposed pictures or missed pictures while you fumble with
controls.
I do not fumble with controls. I shoot ISO 1600 and 1/60th or higher
shooting RAW. Shooting RAW gives you latitude. Regularly shooting ISO
1600 means I rarely need to change. I am working at the margins with
f/2.8 and 1/60th anyway. On a bright stage I am pleased to have
1/100th and f/4 or whatever and, I am far less likely to encounter
serious noise with a photo exposed well to the right. My more common
problem is underexposure and having to push the shot which will bring
up noise. That requires very careful PP to minimise noise.
Perhaps you are experienced enough to be able to work without Auto
ISO. If so, that's fine. However, I have found that without it - in
situations such as the theater - I would have missed many shots.
We have three differences in our technique.

First I alway try to shoot at the lowest possible ISO. Auto ISO helps accomplish this.
Second, I do very little pp.
Third I shoot jpeg only.
I fail to see how that can be? If you shoot ISO 1600 and Shutter or
Aperture priority there are only two variables which are interelated.
You change one and the other automatically changes. If you introduce
a further variable you lose control because it is difficult to
predict which of the other two variables will change.
I shoot in Aperture Priority mode and to date a maximum Auto ISO of 1600 has worked fine. With Aperture and SS set for the conditions, I usually (not always)have no adjustments to make. When I see the shot I want and the situation is "Take it NOW or forget it", I am ready.
Maybe you lose
the opportunity of an ISO 800 shot and get an ISO 1600 one instead
but it is difficult to see how one can miss the shot when one is more
in control! Are you shooting Manual with ISO Auto as the only
variable? If so how do you know that you have spare headroom and can
shift from 1/60th @ 800 ISO to 1/120th @ ISO 1600 to stop the
action? (Are we both speaking of Nikon bodies?). At least doing
things my way you can see what latitude you have to play with.
As I said, I shoot in Aperture Mode. If I can use a faster shutter speed I adjust the aperture. It has been my experience that the room for adjustment is usually very narrow. Any decision to change any of my settings may be incorrect the next second when the lighting changes or the scene changes. You do have more latitude and it does work for you. I have a D200.
I presume you start with an ambition to shoot ISO 800 and sometimes
have to change ISO to 1600 or whatever? Maybe your stages are far
more brightly lit than mine: This was Nabucco three weeks ago:
I don't change ISO. I have my camera set to ISO 200. Auto ISO changes (increases or decreases) ISO automatically.
Shooting on average over 3 shots per minute there is little time to
make adjustments especially when working with two or more cameras
covering different focal lengths. An occasional shot metered at 3
stops brighter than the above (The wardrobe lady made sure ther were
large patches of white on most costumes!!) but that gave me the
luxury of more shutter speed, lens resolving power and DOF.
You are out of my league. I have all I can do to use one camera.
I think our philosophies are different. I am looking for a good
photographic record of an entire event. Maybe you are looking for
just a few "money" shots? Nothing wrong with that but it explains our
different ways of working.
My photography is geared toward travel to new places. I don't specialize in any particular type of shot. My practice shooting depends on what I think I need to improve. If I only took theater shots I would possibly use a different technique. Since I shoot unknowns in variable conditions I have developed a technique that seems to work for me. Well, I am still working on some items.

I appreciate your comments and again, your pictures are great.

--

FINE PRINT: I reserve the right to be wrong. Should you prove me wrong, I reserve the right to change my mind.
 
Wow, this is very helpful!
I'm shooting tomorrow--cross your fingers!
Best of luck and do let us know how you get on!

None of this is easy territory. So do not be discouraged by mediocre results. I often take a first pass at the output from a shoot cursing the shots that got away but I usually end up with lots of usable shots and problems deciding which ones to leave out and which to PP.

On this subject of post shoot sorting. I use Irfanview (which is free) and sort the output (from all cams) into one set of dedicated folders - Best, Maybe and Bin and keep narrowing down the shots in the Best folder until I get a manageable number to PP. It takes just two keystrokes per shot using Irfanview to sort into those folders. I use Capture NX2 to PP my RAW output.

Do remember to get in close. Can you borrow a 2nd tripod and move between a WA and TELE tripod location? (or use a monopod to the same effect. I often do that with my 50mm f/1.4)

P.S. Let me know when I can uncross my fingers. It is reducing my typing speed!!

--
Chris Elliott

Nikon D Eighty + Fifty - Other equipment in Profile

http://PlacidoD.Zenfolio.com/
 
...
The 70-200 will be a good lens to work with if you are between
5 and 10 rows back from the stage. if you are at the back of the
theater, it will likely be too short for any kind of tight shots.
Another poster suggested shorter lenses, and those will work if you
can get close enough... but you will be handholding only, no tripods
generally permitted in the wings or right up front - you distract the
audience when down in front.
Scotty,

I entirely agree. I tend to shoot concerts "live" and Dress Rehearsals of theatre and opera. Many theatres will not allow the use of tripods during live performances for health and safety reasons. I also take the view it is unfair on an audience to distract them. So you are confined to a long lens and a tripod from somewhere near the rear.

Assuming you are the official photographer of an event (That may simply mean that nobody else is foolish enough to volunteered to do it!) it is sensible to get in touch with the theatre staff. The Bridgewater Hall in Manchester for example will only allow tripod use in live performances from seats normally reserved for wheelchair users so you need to get the event organiser to reserve a couple of those seats for you. I was however allowed to use a monopod from behind the audience.

Photographing the dress rehearsal is best whenever possible. You can then set your tripod and telezoom to get decent head shots and work backwards from there with a 2nd body and a WA lens or a second tripod (or use of a monopod) for one of the tasks.

My ideal arrangement would be 4 cams!:

A tripod with T bar mounting an f/2.8 telezoom and standard zoom mounted centrally plus 3rd body set to circa 17mm to capture the entire stage and with the eypiece blanked off on one end of the T bar and finally a 4th body on a monopod with a prime or something like a 35-70mm f/2.8 to get some angled shots.

I will get there one day! Anybody got an ageing D50 they want to donate to a good cause!

--
Chris Elliott

Nikon D Eighty + Fifty - Other equipment in Profile

http://PlacidoD.Zenfolio.com/
 
The previous poster gave a good reference: http://www.fredparker.com/ultexp1.htm#Light%20Intensity%20Chart

It indicates theater lighting is typically EV7 at ISO 1600; This corresponds to about f/4 at 1/125sec, f/5.6 at 1/60, etc...

Chris Elliot said.."You are likely to need circa ISO 1600 f/2.8 and 1/60th".

You can estimate the likely exposure range from these data points.

I'd also suggest that you get as close to the stage as possible unless your shots are posed. This is because shutter speed requirements (due to either subject or camera motion) increase with distance.

Dave

PS I have no experience with theater photography; my comments above are based on physics.
 
Bravo Jeff. You couldn't have covered the situation and solutions better.

I've shot theater on many occasions. Jeff's thoughts are right on. And of them all, taking "test shots" is the most important. It takes the guess work out a tough photographic environment.

The one salvation in this type of photography is that theater lighting directors "usually" attempt to have about the same illumination levels on actors throughout a production. So even if the background or areas surrounding the actor dim, the illumination provided on the actor is about the same throughout. Consequently, the exposure you determine during your test shots will "usually" be very close to "most" of the scenes in the production.

Expect some unwanted noise because of the high ISO setting you will be using. But that's part of the trade off we all face.

Although difficult, theater photography can be some of the most fun and produce some of the most striking images. Good luck.

http://www.hubbardcamera.com
--

Once upon a time Ansel Adams knew nothing about photography. There's hope for all of us.
 

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