Beware of cashiers check fraud

[tcrobert]

I just got one of those overpayment checks in the mail, and I told the person that I will not be sending any funds to anybody else. For any of you guys who is doing photography professionally, please know that this is a known fraud which we need to be on our toes for. Here's how it works in it's simplest form:

1. Somebody overseas contacts you, and wants to send in a check for more than your deposit amount

2. They want you to cash the check, and then send the remaining balance to another person or vendor (DJ, musicians, etc.).

3. You cash the check, it clears, and the money is in your account. The bank tells you that you're safe, so you go ahead and write out check(s) from your own account to send to others.

4. A week or so later, you get a call from your bank telling you that the funds have been retracted (or demanded back) because the check was found to be fraudulent.

Long story short, NEVER accept a check (even cashiers check) that is an overpayment, where you are asked to write out checks and send to others.

Just a friendly reminder / warning to other fellow photographers, so we can avoid this known scam that is often targeted towards professional wedding photographers.

Robert

 

[tcrobert]

http://www.ftc.gov/bcp/conline/pubs/alerts/overpayalrt.shtm

http://banking.about.com/od/securityandsafety/a/cashierscheckfd.htm

http://www.fraud.org/tips/internet/fakecheck.htm

This doesn't just happen with photographers either... it's known to target those who are trying to sell a used car online as well.

These guys are nasty! My check was written out for $3,800 and my deposit for a wintertime wedding is just $200... had I went along with it, there would be $3,600 out the door!

 

[jezsik]

I've not been hit by one of these scams, but I know how to wreck a bit of mayhem on their operation. Next time you get one of these, play along, but don't deposit the check or forward the funds as requested. Instead, tell the scammer that you did indeed send the funds. With a bit of luck, it's a two-scammer operation and scammer #1 will be demanding to know why scammer #2 hasn't sent their share of the booty. Sow the seeds of suspicion.

 

[JD807]

that is a great idea!

I've not been hit by one of these scams, but I know how to wreck a bit of mayhem on their operation. Next time you get one of these, play along, but don't deposit the check or forward the funds as requested. Instead, tell the scammer that you did indeed send the funds. With a bit of luck, it's a two-scammer operation and scammer #1 will be demanding to know why scammer #2 hasn't sent their share of the booty. Sow the seeds of suspicion.

I want one of those phony cashiers checks to frame on the wall
Jon
--
Give me something to shoot

 

[DaveWC]

Long story short, NEVER accept a check (even cashiers check) that is
an overpayment, where you are asked to write out checks and send to
others.

If you're selling something the moral is to never accept a check/casheirs check whether it's an overpayment or not. If the check is bad & you've mailed the product you're out even though the check was not an overpayment.

 

[Conrad Birdie]

I just got one of those overpayment checks in the mail, and I told
the person that I will not be sending any funds to anybody else. For
any of you guys who is doing photography professionally, please know
that this is a known fraud which we need to be on our toes for.
Here's how it works in it's simplest form:

1. Somebody overseas contacts you, and wants to send in a check for
more than your deposit amount

2. They want you to cash the check, and then send the remaining
balance to another person or vendor (DJ, musicians, etc.).

3. You cash the check, it clears, and the money is in your account.
The bank tells you that you're safe, so you go ahead and write out
check(s) from your own account to send to others.

4. A week or so later, you get a call from your bank telling you that
the funds have been retracted (or demanded back) because the check
was found to be fraudulent.

Long story short, NEVER accept a check (even cashiers check) that is
an overpayment, where you are asked to write out checks and send to
others.

Just a friendly reminder / warning to other fellow photographers, so
we can avoid this known scam that is often targeted towards
professional wedding photographers.

Robert

--

Respectfully, I have a little problem with this story. #3 states the bank advised you the Cashiers Check CLEARED and you were safe. Therefore, they can NOT reverse the funds on you. If the CASHIERS CHECK cleared the bank it was drawn on, then the bank that issued the check is liable, PERIOD.

A Cashiers Check is GUARANTEED FUNDS, which means the bank the check was drawn on had the money in the account at the time of issuanace. Therefore, when the check was presented to the originating bank and CLEARED, your bank was obsolved of all liability.

Now, if the CASHIERS CHECK was rejected by the originating bank as stolen or fraud, then I would understand completely, but that is not what you state in #3 above. If the bank advised you the check had cleared and the funds were good, then you are not liable, (nor responsible) to return those funds. That would be a bank error and you would clearly have recourse.
Conrad 'Bye Bye' Birdie
'Aspire to inspire before you expire'.

 

[jezsik]

Respectfully, I have a little problem with this story.

I forget what type of monetary instrument it is, but it works something like a cashier's cheque (a money order, bank transfer record, what have you). It goes into your account in a legitimate fashion, but when the original bank tells the depositing bank that the funds are fraudulent, the money is yanked from your account.

These accursed scammers know more about the banking industry than most of those working on Wall st. Then again, that's not much of a stretch.

 

[Hobgoblin]

Or it will be a one person operation and he will come round and break your kneecaps.

 

[Conrad Birdie]

I just got one of those overpayment checks in the mail, and I told
the person that I will not be sending any funds to anybody else. For
any of you guys who is doing photography professionally, please know
that this is a known fraud which we need to be on our toes for.
Here's how it works in it's simplest form:

1. Somebody overseas contacts you, and wants to send in a check for
more than your deposit amount

2. They want you to cash the check, and then send the remaining
balance to another person or vendor (DJ, musicians, etc.).

3. You cash the check, it clears, and the money is in your account.
The bank tells you that you're safe, so you go ahead and write out
check(s) from your own account to send to others.

4. A week or so later, you get a call from your bank telling you that
the funds have been retracted (or demanded back) because the check
was found to be fraudulent.

Long story short, NEVER accept a check (even cashiers check) that is
an overpayment, where you are asked to write out checks and send to
others.

Just a friendly reminder / warning to other fellow photographers, so
we can avoid this known scam that is often targeted towards
professional wedding photographers.

Robert

--
Respectfully, I have a little problem with this story. #3 states the
bank advised you the Cashiers Check CLEARED and you were safe.
Therefore, they can NOT reverse the funds on you. If the CASHIERS
CHECK cleared the bank it was drawn on, then the bank that issued the
check is liable, PERIOD.

A Cashiers Check is GUARANTEED FUNDS, which means the bank the check
was drawn on had the money in the account at the time of issuanace.
Therefore, when the check was presented to the originating bank and
CLEARED, your bank was obsolved of all liability.

Now, if the CASHIERS CHECK was rejected by the originating bank as
stolen or fraud, then I would understand completely, but that is not
what you state in #3 above. If the bank advised you the check had
cleared and the funds were good, then you are not liable, (nor
responsible) to return those funds. That would be a bank error and
you would clearly have recourse.
Conrad 'Bye Bye' Birdie
'Aspire to inspire before you expire'.

--
Legal definition

In the United States, under Article 3 of the Uniform Commercial Code, a cashier's check is effective as a note of the bank. Also, according to Regulation CC (Reg CC) of the Federal Reserve, cashier's checks are recognized as "guaranteed funds" and amounts under $5000 are not subject to deposit holds. The length of a hold varies (2 days to 2 weeks) depending on the bank. It is not clear what length of time may pass before a bank can be held responsible for accepting a bad cashier's check.

NOTE: Again, if the Cashiers Check CLEARED the originating bank, you should NOT have to return any funds, period. The KEY word, is CLEARED. If the originating bank rejected the CASHIERS CHECK as fraud, then you would also have a claim against the party that sent you the check. Contact the Police ASAP.
Conrad 'Bye Bye' Birdie
'Aspire to inspire before you expire'.

 

[Conrad Birdie]

Respectfully, I have a little problem with this story.

I forget what type of monetary instrument it is, but it works
something like a cashier's cheque (a money order, bank transfer
record, what have you). It goes into your account in a legitimate
fashion, but when the original bank tells the depositing bank that
the funds are fraudulent, the money is yanked from your account.

Yes, there is a major difference between Money Orders and Cashiers Checks. Cashiers Checks are ONLY issued by a Bank and must be signed by a member of Management before issuance. That is why they are Guaranteed Funds.

Now, that does not stop someone inside the bank from stealing Cashiers Checks and trying to cash them, but those checks would not CLEAR the originating bank, (which is what the OP stated occurred) they would have been rejected as stolen or fraud, and the customer would then clearly have a criminal case against the party who sent them the check.

These accursed scammers know more about the banking industry than
most of those working on Wall st. Then again, that's not much of a
stretch.

--
Conrad 'Bye Bye' Birdie
'Aspire to inspire before you expire'.

 

[tcrobert]

Respectfully, I have a little problem with this story. #3 states the
bank advised you the Cashiers Check CLEARED and you were safe.
Therefore, they can NOT reverse the funds on you. If the CASHIERS
CHECK cleared the bank it was drawn on, then the bank that issued the
check is liable, PERIOD.

A Cashiers Check is GUARANTEED FUNDS, which means the bank the check
was drawn on had the money in the account at the time of issuanace.
Therefore, when the check was presented to the originating bank and
CLEARED, your bank was obsolved of all liability.

Now, if the CASHIERS CHECK was rejected by the originating bank as
stolen or fraud, then I would understand completely, but that is not
what you state in #3 above. If the bank advised you the check had
cleared and the funds were good, then you are not liable, (nor
responsible) to return those funds. That would be a bank error and
you would clearly have recourse.
Conrad 'Bye Bye' Birdie
'Aspire to inspire before you expire'.

It still doesn't convince me to wire some musician overseas $3,600 of my hard-earned moolah... especially when the FTC warns us against cashiers check fraud as a popular internet scam to be on the guard against... ;-)

 

[Tony Sx]

Legal definition

In the United States, under Article 3 of the Uniform Commercial Code,
a cashier's check is effective as a note of the bank. Also, according
to Regulation CC (Reg CC) of the Federal Reserve, cashier's checks
are recognized as "guaranteed funds" and amounts under $5000 are not
subject to deposit holds. The length of a hold varies (2 days to 2
weeks) depending on the bank. It is not clear what length of time may
pass before a bank can be held responsible for accepting a bad
cashier's check.

NOTE: Again, if the Cashiers Check CLEARED the originating bank, you
should NOT have to return any funds, period. The KEY word, is
CLEARED. If the originating bank rejected the CASHIERS CHECK as
fraud, then you would also have a claim against the party that sent
you the check. Contact the Police ASAP.
Conrad 'Bye Bye' Birdie
'Aspire to inspire before you expire'.

It may be that the legal definition of a cashier's cheque pertains to those drawn on a US bank??

 

[corsec67]

NOTE: Again, if the Cashiers Check CLEARED the originating bank, you
should NOT have to return any funds, period. The KEY word, is
CLEARED. If the originating bank rejected the CASHIERS CHECK as
fraud, then you would also have a claim against the party that sent
you the check. Contact the Police ASAP.
Conrad 'Bye Bye' Birdie
'Aspire to inspire before you expire'.

I think what he meant is that the cashiers check "cleared" his bank, so they would have put money into his account.

He didn't say that the check would clear the originating bank, since it wouldn't, due to the check being forged.

This is definitely a bad scam, and a good reason to not trust any kind of check, and reject it completely if it doesn't match the billing amount.

 

[Conrad Birdie]

NOTE: Again, if the Cashiers Check CLEARED the originating bank, you
should NOT have to return any funds, period. The KEY word, is
CLEARED. If the originating bank rejected the CASHIERS CHECK as
fraud, then you would also have a claim against the party that sent
you the check. Contact the Police ASAP.
Conrad 'Bye Bye' Birdie
'Aspire to inspire before you expire'.

I think what he meant is that the cashiers check "cleared" his bank,
so they would have put money into his account.

You deposit a check with your own bank, it CLEARS the bank of origination. That can be one and the same, but not in this case, obviously.

He didn't say that the check would clear the originating bank, since
it wouldn't, due to the check being forged.

He said his bank told him the check CLEARED and he was O.K. That meant his bank had released the funds to him.

This is definitely a bad scam, and a good reason to not trust any
kind of check, and reject it completely if it doesn't match the
billing amount.

I respectfully disagree. Consumers should be able to trust a CASHIERS CHECK. That is exactly the reason banks have Cashiers Checks, because they are GUARANTEED FUNDS.

What consumers should NEVER trust are total strangers that ask for you to send them money. He had all the warning signs one could get, and he accepted the check anyway. If it sounds fishy, trust your instincts.

--
Conrad 'Bye Bye' Birdie
'Aspire to inspire before you expire'.

 

[Ray Maines]

http://www.snopes.com/crime/fraud/cashier.asp

--



Tacoma, Washington, USA

 

[Conrad Birdie]

Respectfully, I have a little problem with this story. #3 states the
bank advised you the Cashiers Check CLEARED and you were safe.
Therefore, they can NOT reverse the funds on you. If the CASHIERS
CHECK cleared the bank it was drawn on, then the bank that issued the
check is liable, PERIOD.

A Cashiers Check is GUARANTEED FUNDS, which means the bank the check
was drawn on had the money in the account at the time of issuanace.
Therefore, when the check was presented to the originating bank and
CLEARED, your bank was obsolved of all liability.

Now, if the CASHIERS CHECK was rejected by the originating bank as
stolen or fraud, then I would understand completely, but that is not
what you state in #3 above. If the bank advised you the check had
cleared and the funds were good, then you are not liable, (nor
responsible) to return those funds. That would be a bank error and
you would clearly have recourse.
Conrad 'Bye Bye' Birdie
'Aspire to inspire before you expire'.

It still doesn't convince me to wire some musician overseas $3,600 of
my hard-earned moolah... especially when the FTC warns us against
cashiers check fraud as a popular internet scam to be on the guard
against... ;-)

You have this person's information to WIRE funds too? Have you contacted the police for goodness sakes. For wire transfers, you have to have a bank name, routing number and account number of the person you are wiring funds too, which means the POLICE would have all the information they need to find out who these people are to catch and prosecute these slim balls.

--
Conrad 'Bye Bye' Birdie
'Aspire to inspire before you expire'.

 

[Ray Maines]

You didn't say, but the buyer isn't from West Africa -- oh, say, Nigeria for instance -- is he?

The OP didn't use the "C" word (counterfeit) but all the discussion about whether or not it's a Cashiers check, Bank Draft or toilet paper is irrelevant if it's (and it WILL be) counterfeit.

Also, there is a HUGE difference between simply having "funds available" and actually Clearing. When funds are available (in about three days) you are eligible to get screwed, when the "cashiers check" actually clears (in about three weeks) you're safe. Don't confuse the two.

As posted above, here is what Snopes has to say about this sort of thing:

http://www.snopes.com/crime/fraud/cashier.asp

--



Tacoma, Washington, USA

 

[Conrad Birdie]

http://www.snopes.com/crime/fraud/cashier.asp

How totally ridiculous folks. How simple.

Tell the Buyer you will only accept what you are owed. He should pay the other person himself by CASHIERS CHECK, or this transaction is not going to happen. PERIOD. Why would this have not created a warning signal? The buyer can send a CASHIERS CHECK to you, but he can't send one to the other person that is supposedly owed money? Why?

Furthermore, never, ever release a product you have sold to someone out of the country, and send the product unless you have confirmation that the funds have been released and the check has been CLEARED. Get it in writing if need be.

Why do you think banks don't release titles on cars for 30 days after a loan has been paid off? To confirm that all funds, or checks have cleared before they release their lien on the vehicle.

--



Tacoma, Washington, USA

--
Conrad 'Bye Bye' Birdie
'Aspire to inspire before you expire'.

 

[Conrad Birdie]

You didn't say, but the buyer isn't from West Africa -- oh, say,
Nigeria for instance -- is he?

The OP didn't use the "C" word (counterfeit) but all the discussion
about whether or not it's a Cashiers check, Bank Draft or toilet
paper is irrelevant if it's (and it WILL be) counterfeit.

Also, there is a HUGE difference between simply having "funds
available" and actually Clearing. When funds are available (in about
three days) you are eligible to get screwed, when the "cashiers
check" actually clears (in about three weeks) you're safe. Don't
confuse the two.

Exactly!

As posted above, here is what Snopes has to say about this sort of
thing:

http://www.snopes.com/crime/fraud/cashier.asp

After reading the snopes article, it just seems so ridiculous to me.

Why wouldn't the seller simply tell the purchaser, "Hey, if you can send me a Cashiers Check, why can't you send a Cashiers Check to the other person you owe"? "I will not pay a debt to someone else that you owe, therefore, you send me a check for what you owe me, period". "I will send you the product AFTER your check CLEARS YOUR BANK.

I am 100% percent sure if the seller (OP) would have said that to the buyer, it would have stopped this transaction dead in its tracks, because it would have defeated the scam.

--



Tacoma, Washington, USA

--
Conrad 'Bye Bye' Birdie
'Aspire to inspire before you expire'.

 

[Gary602z]

I am 100% percent sure if the seller (OP) would have said that to the
buyer, it would have stopped this transaction dead in its tracks,
because it would have defeated the scam.

I am sure if you re-read the OP's second post you will see he did not fall for it and there fore DID stop it dead in its tracks.

Gary
--
Photos at http://www.pbase.com/gary_602z
Very funny Scotty now beam me down my clothes!