Why do the D700 need another battery to get 8fps?

[jeffzhai]

hey, that works great!! I didn't measure it scientifically but it's much faster than the normal continuous shooting. And it is such a easy method to switch between standard shooting & continuous shooting.

Hello guys,

If you want the higher than standard FPS without the vertical grip,
do the following:

First, make the following custom setting adjustments:

e5: Flash only
e6: Flash only
f4: Button press - Bracketing burst
f4: Button + dials - Bracketing mode

Quality to either JPG or RAW 12 bit. Set exposure manually. Activate
bracketing with the Fn + Command dial and set 9F (9 frames). Set your
shooting mode to single-shot (S). Do not use flash. Then hold the Fn
button and when you are ready to shoot, press the shutter release and
continue holding the Fn button. The camera will fire up to 9 frames
at 8 fps.

To continue shooting after 9 frames, you will need to let up on the
shutter release and depress it again. If you fire fewer than 9 shots,
you will only be able to shoot the remaining exposures in your
9-frame burst if you continue shooting again, without letting up on
the shutter release again.

Since you have set auto bracketing to apply only to flash, your
non-flash bracketing burst is fired at your manually set exposure —
it is not bracketed.

Have fun, it really works! No risk....

--
D700, 24-70 2.8, 70-300 VR, SB900

 

[Jespersen]

That sounds plusible!
Thank you for the explanation..

But because of significant cost no - it was a strategic decision by Nikon for sure. That the camera is smaller with the smaller battery I believe - well that is quite simple not ;-) Also that the use of standard battery is an advantage - I'll buy that one as well... Hmm...

S

 

[Wilfred W]

Just a guess...

the processor wasn't run at full speed when using the original EnEL3. Just like your laptop can run at different speed for longer operation time.

1.25 v x 8 = 10 v
ENEL4=11 v

ENEL3 = 7.4 v

also, the mirror still need motor to move...

Shouldn't the camera "run" equally as fast with one battery vs. two
batteries? These things are digital devices after all and not
electric motors.

Also, if the D700 is internally like the D3, shouldn't it be able to
reach 9fps like the D3?

Is this Nikon's way of making people buy more stuff to get extra
performance?

Intel did something similar: their higher price CPU and lower price
ones are the same. Only the lower price ones have part of the
circuit disabled.

--
Wilfred

 

[Edgar Payne]

the processor wasn't run at full speed when using the original EnEL3.
Just like your laptop can run at different speed for longer operation
time.

1.25 v x 8 = 10 v
ENEL4=11 v

ENEL3 = 7.4 v

also, the mirror still need motor to move...

Shouldn't the camera "run" equally as fast with one battery vs. two
batteries? These things are digital devices after all and not
electric motors.

The camera's electronic circuits, processors, etc. are powered from a 3 or 5 volt supply regulated down from the higher native cell voltage.

Also, if the D700 is internally like the D3, shouldn't it be able to
reach 9fps like the D3?

The mechanics of the D-700 and D-3 are not identical, The sensor is the same but not the shutter and mirror box assembly.

Is this Nikon's way of making people buy more stuff to get extra
performance?

NO, it is NIKONS way to make a similar optical performance camera body avaiable at a lower cost for those who do not need 2 card slots, higher frame rate out of the box, etc...

Intel did something similar: their higher price CPU and lower price
ones are the same. Only the lower price ones have part of the
circuit disabled.

NIKON has not been a company to dumb down their hardware with software limitations like some other companies have.

--
Wilfred

 

[lesdit]

Neat trick, using the burst bracketing to bracket a non-used flash , meaning that it keeps exposure the same.
I don't use manual exposure much, so it won't help me.
I wonder if an empty battery case would be enough to get it to shoot fast?
Can someone test it?

If so, a slim dummy battery case could be fitted to allow 8fps bursts without the bulk. Probably only advisable for only occasional bursts, not heavy usage that would burden the small battery too much.
There are $99 non-Nikon versions that could be chopped for this purpose.
-Les

 

[Rickard Hansson]

Different batteries in D700 and D3.

--
Rickard Hansson
Sweden

 

[MirceaR]

Pro'lly just one battery would drain i.e. run out of 'juice' really really fast when shooting 8fps, pro'lly so fast that it would damage it - the battery - permanently, while 2 batteries in parallel would supply the same voltage but are capable of almost double the current (ampers)

 

[mike_2008]

They did it to sell more grips.
--
http://mike2008.smugmug.com

 

[Rickard Hansson]

That is not the fact with the D3, it has only one battery, but a different battery.

More juice in the EN-EL4 battery compared to the EN-EL3.

--
Rickard Hansson
Sweden

 

[Joseph S Wisniewski]

Shouldn't the camera "run" equally as fast with one battery vs. two
batteries? These things are digital devices after all and not
electric motors.

Well, the mirror and shutter are mechanical devices, with electric
motors winding them, I guess.

Also, if the D700 is internally like the D3, shouldn't it be able to
reach 9fps like the D3?

The D700 has a different Mirror/shutter box than the D3.

Still, I'm not understanding how extra power would make it go faster,
as the motors should be doing light work, they should be able to spin
as fast as the mirror/shutter box can go, even with less voltage. But
maybe (probably) I'm not understanding this concept of electric
motors and voltage properly. I was hoping someone with an
understanding of this could chip in, as I've been wondering the same
thing.

There are one or more motors powering the mirrors (main and
auxiliary) and one powering each shutter blind. The motors actually
have to work very hard to produce the acceleration required for fast
frame rates, but they don't have to do it for long. 5fps gives 200ms
between frames, 8 just 125. If, for the sake of argument, The shutter
needs 4ms minimum to make the exposure. Lets assume that for each
shot the mirror must be down for 100ms for viewfinding and AF. At
5FPS, the mirror flip (up and down) can take 96ms. At 8fps, 21. Thus,
for 8fps the mirror must accelerate four times as fast as at 5fps,
that's four times the power.
I suspect that there might be a voltage issue as well.

It is. That was always the old fashioned way of increasing shooting speed mack in the film days, more batteries, higher voltages...

Motors produce
more torque with higher voltage, and I've read somewhere that AF goes
faster with the higher voltage (including AF-S morors). However, the
8fps hack suggests that the camera has sufficient voltage internally
to sustain 8fps for a while.

Not really. The 8fps on a small battery is only for burst bracketing, there's no AF and no metering cycle between shots, so the camera can cycle as fast as it can, without allowing the mirror to settle in the down position long enough to do an AF and metering operation.

To get the mirror moving fast enough to give you time for 8 fps with the mirror down long enough to meter, focus, and (one other little detail) actually "see" something useful in the viewfinder, you need the higher voltage.

Hope this helps...

--
Rahon Klavanian 1912-2008.

Armenian genocide survivor, amazing cook, scrabble master, and loving grandmother. You will be missed.

Ciao! Joseph

http://www.swissarmyfork.com

 

[Joseph S Wisniewski]

So - it does not seem that the speed is limited by the file type or
size (since it is constant) rather that it is limited by software.
Nikon had to make the d700 slightly worse than the d3 so this is how
they did it (amongst other things).

Since the d700 can reach (aparently) the 8fps if you tweek the custum
settings then there is no reason wha the motors and batteries cannot
deliver 8fps in normal modes than these (rahter strange) settings.

Of course there is. Those "strange" settings you talk about involve an abuse of burst bracketing.

Bracketing means no AF between shots, and only one metering operation, just before the beginning of the burst. All the other exposures in the burst are based on that first reading.

That means all they have to do is cycle the mirror and shutter as fast as they can. It doesn't have to be down long enough to get stable so that it can be used for metering, AF, and seeing the image (a minor detail, but still convenient).

The extra voltage from the larger EN-EL4e in the battery pack allows the cycle motor to wind the mirror up faster, so that, at 8fps you've still got some "mirror down" time for AF, metering, and seeing.

D3 does something similar. By disabling AF between frames, it actually goes up to around 11 frames/second.

Now, it can be that the continuous speed is limited by other factors
like heat generation in the motors/batteries or other things.
However, if you do not use the 8fps feature until 100pics all the
time it might be that it could work - who knows?

Anyone who's listened to audio recordings of 8 fob burst bracketing on the EN-EL3e and real 8 fps shooting on the EN-EL4e.

Personally I do
(unfortunately) not think that Nikon will open up for 8fps with a
firmware upgrade, even when a new d3x comes out to replace the d3...

So any software geniouses around who can come up with the first D700
firmware hack so we can get 8fps? ;-)

The laws of physics have traditionally been very hard to "hack".

If someone could make my d700
give 8fps in all (or most) modes I'll be very happy indeed....

Nikon can...

--
Rahon Klavanian 1912-2008.

Armenian genocide survivor, amazing cook, scrabble master, and loving grandmother. You will be missed.

Ciao! Joseph

http://www.swissarmyfork.com

 

[lesdit]

my question still stands: Will the d700 shoot fast with an empty battery grip attached? Custom settings lets you tell it to use built in battery first, correct?
i.e. don't use the dead/missing grip battery.

If this works, a $99 battery grip can be 'downsized' to allow occasional fast bursts.

 

[bobn2]

Not really. The 8fps on a small battery is only for burst bracketing,
there's no AF and no metering cycle between shots, so the camera can
cycle as fast as it can, without allowing the mirror to settle in the
down position long enough to do an AF and metering operation.

To get the mirror moving fast enough to give you time for 8 fps with
the mirror down long enough to meter, focus, and (one other little
detail) actually "see" something useful in the viewfinder, you need
the higher voltage.

Hope this helps...

Good point. Any idea if the thing about AF-S motors running faster with the higher voltage is true? I'd always thought these piezo motors would use a step-up converter and thus a regulated voltage.

--
Bob

 

[Edgar Payne]

my question still stands: Will the d700 shoot fast with an empty
battery grip attached? Custom settings lets you tell it to use built
in battery first, correct?
i.e. don't use the dead/missing grip battery.
If this works, a $99 battery grip can be 'downsized' to allow
occasional fast bursts.

NO the D-700 will not shoot faster with an empty battery grip. The reason it can shoot faster has to do with the higher voltage the optional batteries allow, The EN-EL4 or a compliment of 8 AA cells supply 11 to 12 volts vs 7.4 with a single or even two parallel EN-EL3E batteries. The usage of two EN-EL3E batteries does however double the number of frames you can shoot. See my previous post for more information.

 

[lesdit]

Well, the D700 can shoot at close to 8 fps WITHOUT the battery grip.

So I want to know if simply attaching an empty battery grip and telling D700 to use internal battery first is enough to fool the d700 into allowing it to use a higher frame rate in 'Sh' mode. Or does the battery grip slow down to 5 fps when it is using the d700 internal battery ?
I don't have the battery grip, so I can't test this myself.

Are some of the 15 pins on the grip more than DC battery connections and remote shutter release controls, I wonder?

Do you guys see what I'm getting at here?

Again, D700 can shoot fast WITHOUT extra batteries. The burst mode bracketing is the proof. Only 1st frame metering, true, but fast fps.

my question still stands: Will the d700 shoot fast with an empty
battery grip attached? Custom settings lets you tell it to use built
in battery first, correct?
i.e. don't use the dead/missing grip battery.
If this works, a $99 battery grip can be 'downsized' to allow
occasional fast bursts.

NO the D-700 will not shoot faster with an empty battery grip. The
reason it can shoot faster has to do with the higher voltage the
optional batteries allow, The EN-EL4 or a compliment of 8 AA cells
supply 11 to 12 volts vs 7.4 with a single or even two parallel
EN-EL3E batteries. The usage of two EN-EL3E batteries does however
double the number of frames you can shoot. See my previous post for
more information.

 

[jfriend00]

Well, the D700 can shoot at close to 8 fps WITHOUT the battery grip.
So I want to know if simply attaching an empty battery grip and
telling D700 to use internal battery first is enough to fool the
d700 into allowing it to use a higher frame rate in 'Sh' mode. Or
does the battery grip slow down to 5 fps when it is using the d700
internal battery ?
I don't have the battery grip, so I can't test this myself.

My D300 w/grip does not go as fast when I pull the battery out of the grip (with battery in camera). I didn't measure it, but it was significantly faster with the battery in the grip which would be consistent with 5fps w/o battery, 8fps w/battery.

Are some of the 15 pins on the grip more than DC battery connections
and remote shutter release controls, I wonder?

The grip also has an AF-ON button and a 5-way control and two command dials (aperture and shutter) so that's probably what all the other pins are for.
--
John
Popular: http://jfriend.smugmug.com/popular
Portfolio: http://jfriend.smugmug.com/portfolio

 

[gugs2]

I simply cant believe that Nikon crippled the d700 by a software
trick - that would not be typical Nikon in my eyes... I would really
hate that actually...Imagine having a nice sports car, but which was
limited to a speed of 100kmh/60mph Grrrr! I would try to get around
that somehow... I like my d700, but I would not mind if it had
8fps...

S

this is happening all the time in the car industry...

Volkswagen does it in Europe with the Golf, Mercedes as well, there are different versions with strictly the same "hardware", but with different power settings, like the 2.2 diesel engine, there are/have been version like 125, 136, 150, 163, 170 bhp, at different price points. Some companies are providing the service to reprogram the flash to get the engine you want...

based on the trick, I would say that Nikon might do the same, because they have to show a difference between D3 and D700.
--
Guy (AKA gugs on FM or NikonCafe among others) - D3, D200, F5, D40x, Nikon Stuff
--------------------------------------
http://users.skynet.be/van.hooveld
http://guyvanhooveld.blogspot.com

 

[jfriend00]

this is happening all the time in the car industry...
Volkswagen does it in Europe with the Golf, Mercedes as well, there
are different versions with strictly the same "hardware", but with
different power settings, like the 2.2 diesel engine, there are/have
been version like 125, 136, 150, 163, 170 bhp, at different price
points. Some companies are providing the service to reprogram the
flash to get the engine you want...

based on the trick, I would say that Nikon might do the same, because
they have to show a difference between D3 and D700.

Read the thread. It is very unlikely that this is the case. The trick has no AF, no metering and only a limited number of shots.

From what I've seen of Nikon's product strategy, for competitive reasons, they have always wanted cameras to be as powerful as possible at their price point. That's how they win business from Canon and defend their position vs. Sony. We've never seen any evidence of crippling below the capabilities of the hardware before from Nikon. Yes, it does happen in other industries - it just seems very unlikely in this case.
--
John
Popular: http://jfriend.smugmug.com/popular
Portfolio: http://jfriend.smugmug.com/portfolio

 

[Jola013]

Read the thread. It is very unlikely that this is the case. The
trick has no AF, no metering and only a limited number of shots.

From what I've seen of Nikon's product strategy, for competitive
reasons, they have always wanted cameras to be as powerful as
possible at their price point. That's how they win business from
Canon and defend their position vs. Sony. We've never seen any
evidence of crippling below the capabilities of the hardware before
from Nikon. Yes, it does happen in other industries - it just seems
very unlikely in this case.
--

 

[Joseph S Wisniewski]

Well, the D700 can shoot at close to 8 fps WITHOUT the battery grip.
So I want to know if simply attaching an empty battery grip and
telling D700 to use internal battery first is enough to fool the
d700 into allowing it to use a higher frame rate in 'Sh' mode. Or
does the battery grip slow down to 5 fps when it is using the d700
internal battery ?
I don't have the battery grip, so I can't test this myself.

Are some of the 15 pins on the grip more than DC battery connections
and remote shutter release controls, I wonder?

Not really. If it's anything like the D100 grip, nearly all the pins are for supporting the serial interfaces... two serial data, two bit clock, two word clock, 3 ground, 2 logic power, etc...

Do you guys see what I'm getting at here?

Actually, I think I do.

Again, D700 can shoot fast WITHOUT extra batteries.

Again, no IT CAN'T.

The burst mode bracketing is the proof. Only 1st frame metering, true, but
fast fps.

Once more:

Without the extra voltage, the motors can't wind the shutter and mirror mechanism fast enough to give you a sufficient "mirror down" time for three things...

No metering, which means you can't follow motion through changing lighting conditions like at a sporting event or race.

No focus tracking, which again makes doing anything with moving subjects difficult.

Very little time between mirror blackouts to maintain composition of moving subjects.

The burst mode is "the proof" of nothing other than that some Nikon engineers are very clever. They found a way, by ignoring the mirror down time requirements of action photography, to come up with a feature that is useful in non-action situations, such as bracketing for architecture or landscape shooting.

And please, stop top posting.

--
Rahon Klavanian 1912-2008.

Armenian genocide survivor, amazing cook, scrabble master, and loving grandmother. You will be missed.

Ciao! Joseph

http://www.swissarmyfork.com