Another giant awakes

[tex]

And I'm dying to see if they show a prototype at Photokina that
resembles those pretty 3D renderings of a micro-four thirds camera
that have been floating around. I'm already picturing making a thin
coil-cord extension cable for that hotshoe mounted EVF and clipping
the viewfinder onto my sunglasses...

(And yes, I know there's a serious dichotomy involved in praising a
company for not doing silly things, and just five lines later
proposing an eyeglasses mounted viewfinder).

first, i'm also waiting with fingers crossed. but this eyeglass thing....bring it on, baby! i LUV it!

 

[rhlpetrus]

All makers will go to hybrids in a few years, entry-level dslrs will be replaced by EVILs running video as well. Panny will be first though, then Sony, then the rest.
--
Regards, Renato.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/11435304@N04
OnExposure member
http://www.onexposure.net/

 

[Joseph S Wisniewski]

Yeah. He took a swipe at the video mode Nikon earlier today...

http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1018&message=29138094

I simply suggested most DSLR buyers are thinking of stills quality,
not video, and mono video at that. But don't let that get in the way..

Sure, sure. This is how you "simply suggested" that:

"Wow 5 min video...
That really blows the barn doors off! ;-)

Let's be honest, it was designed to steal the thunder of the new canon, and not much else. Whilst I dont mind more features, the primary appeal of a camera, is taking stills, I would imagine most feel the same."

So, if I were to say, hypothetically, that any other dpReview poster's skills simply "blow the doors off" anything one particular dpReview poster is capable of writing, or that he's a troll and "not much else"...

Well, I guess that means I'm simply suggesting that I occasionally disagree with him, and that maybe he should tone it down a little.

I had to roll up a newspaper and whack him on the nose. The problem
with Barry is that he seems totally immune to facts and logic...

Or rather I would suggest you re-read the forum rules, personal
remarks are not welcomed on a public forum, you only make yourself
look bad.

How could someone look bad for simply correctiny lies and faulty logic. I'd suggest that telling lies and using faulty logic is much more likely to make one look bad..

What's the UK equivalent to what Americans call a "red neck"?

Off he goes again.. ;-)

All I did was state that I didn't know what people in the UK call a the sort of person an American would call a "red neck", and ask what the proper term was. It should be pretty obvious that I never suggested that you are such a person.

--
Rahon Klavanian 1912-2008.

Armenian genocide survivor, amazing cook, scrabble master, and loving grandmother. You will be missed.

Ciao! Joseph

http://www.swissarmyfork.com

 

[thebard37]

All I did was state that I didn't know what people in the UK call a
the sort of person an American would call a "red neck", and ask what
the proper term was. It should be pretty obvious that I never
suggested that you are such a person.

. . that hypothetical person a pikey or a dingle. Not quite the same. But close enough.

--
--
Comments are always welcome.

Zach Bellino

'Nothing, like something, happens anywhere.”
-- from 'I Remember, I Remember'
Philip Larkin (1922-1985)

 

[Barry Fitzgerald]

. . that hypothetical person a pikey or a dingle. Not quite the same.
But close enough.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pikey

I think most would find that term offensive!

--



I am not the 'Ghost Hunter', nor am I the Irish actor in the 'Quiet Man' ;-)

 

[misha marinsky3]

All makers will go to hybrids in a few years, entry-level dslrs will
be replaced by EVILs running video as well. Panny will be first
though, then Sony, then the rest.
--

I think Panny will have a u4/3 working model at 'Kina, and in stores before Xmas. Since Samsung's announcement, they are going pedal to the metal.

Don't forget, Red wants the consumer market, too. Panny has the advantage - a sensor, and lens mount ready to go - now. And current 4/3 lenses are backward compatible, with the adapter. True, it is not forward compatible, but so what.

Something also to note: Panny's system is a lot easier for taking video, and their sensor does not overheat after 5 minutes.

Panny has far more R&D money than Red. Samsung also has deep pockets. It's going to be an interesting future. Nikon has an instrument division, and Canon is in all kinds of products. They make high margin television broadcast cameras, for example.

http://ubereye.deviantart.com/

http://www.flickr.com/photos/ubereye/

 

[Barry Fitzgerald]

How could someone look bad for simply correctiny lies and faulty
logic. I'd suggest that telling lies and using faulty logic is much
more likely to make one look bad..

What lies? I thought this was a place for "opinions" and that alone.

I have no problems with people who disagree with my views, I am adult enough to deal with that, after all this is just a forum.

No doubt many will like the appeal of the new nikon, but as I suggested, as we are photographers, and not video shooters, the area of most interest isnt likely to be motion. Like I said Nikon PR move, clever one at that, they killed off all talk of the new canon, hats off to them.

Somehow I doubt we will be seeing movies released shot on a nikon D90, but hey, if we do I shall come back and eat my comments.

Oh, by the way most movies are shot on these ;-)



And yes they do a genesis digital one, but take note..they use a true RGB 35mm sized sensor, not a bayer sensor in sight.

So we don't want to mislead people now do we? And tell them they are getting real movie quality. Rather I suspect a few short clips of the kids running around, nothing wrong with that mind, but not exactly the DIY motion picture heaven some are suggesting ;-)

--



I am not the 'Ghost Hunter', nor am I the Irish actor in the 'Quiet Man' ;-)

 

[thebard37]

And yes they do a genesis digital one, but take note..they use a true
RGB 35mm sized sensor, not a bayer sensor in sight.

Yes, by 35mm they mean slightly larger than APS, not 35mm from a still camera. A 35mm D3 sensor has twice the real estate, the Nikon d90 has a bout 1-2mm short in each direction . . . about 0.1 a stop in equivalence terms. And as far as true RGB, it uses a stripped filter array that is very similar to Bayer type designs but incorporates less green filters and more red and blue for a simplified binning process.

.

--
--
Comments are always welcome.

Zach Bellino

'Nothing, like something, happens anywhere.”
-- from 'I Remember, I Remember'
Philip Larkin (1922-1985)

 

[Joseph S Wisniewski]

All I did was state that I didn't know what people in the UK call a
the sort of person an American would call a "red neck", and ask what
the proper term was. It should be pretty obvious that I never
suggested that you are such a person.

. . that hypothetical person a pikey or a dingle. Not quite the same.
But close enough.

I would only call the hypothetical person things that (as Barry insists) "simply suggested" the very most mild forms of innocent criticism.

--
Rahon Klavanian 1912-2008.

Armenian genocide survivor, amazing cook, scrabble master, and loving grandmother. You will be missed.

Ciao! Joseph

http://www.swissarmyfork.com

 

[rhlpetrus]

All makers will go to hybrids in a few years, entry-level dslrs will
be replaced by EVILs running video as well. Panny will be first
though, then Sony, then the rest.
--

I think Panny will have a u4/3 working model at 'Kina, and in stores
before Xmas. Since Samsung's announcement, they are going pedal to
the metal.

Don't forget, Red wants the consumer market, too. Panny has the
advantage - a sensor, and lens mount ready to go - now. And current
4/3 lenses are backward compatible, with the adapter. True, it is not
forward compatible, but so what.

Something also to note: Panny's system is a lot easier for taking
video, and their sensor does not overheat after 5 minutes.

Panny has far more R&D money than Red. Samsung also has deep pockets.
It's going to be an interesting future. Nikon has an instrument
division, and Canon is in all kinds of products. They make high
margin television broadcast cameras, for example.

Nikon, as OLy, are the junior partners in this one. Likely will join forces with one of the biggies, Nikon with Sony and Oly with Panny. Canon can go alone, Samsung can get some Pentax help.

10 years from now it'll look much different from today.

--
Regards, Renato.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/11435304@N04
OnExposure member
http://www.onexposure.net/

 

[Joseph S Wisniewski]

How could someone look bad for simply correctiny lies and faulty
logic. I'd suggest that telling lies and using faulty logic is much
more likely to make one look bad..

What lies?

Caught you in one in this very post. I'll show you where in a few paragraphs.

I thought this was a place for "opinions" and that alone.

I have no problems with people who disagree with my views, I am adult
enough to deal with that, after all this is just a forum.

No doubt many will like the appeal of the new nikon, but as I
suggested,

You can stop with what you "suggested". I quoted what you actually "said".

Somehow I doubt we will be seeing movies released shot on a nikon
D90, but hey, if we do I shall come back and eat my comments.

I didn't say we would be seeing movies.

Oh, by the way most movies are shot on these ;-)

Got any statistics to support that? And why would you suppose that the use of film in cinema isn't going to fall off as quickly as it did in still photography, as processor and storage price/performance ratios continue to improve?

And yes they do a genesis digital one, but take note..they use a true
RGB 35mm sized sensor, not a bayer sensor in sight.

But several of the other digital cinema cameras do use Bayer sensors. This includes the Arriflex D-20, Dalsa Origin, Sony CineAlta, the Panasonic Varicam, and the Red One which is taking the digital cinematography field by storm.

By the way, since you occasionally seem to have a problem with the concept of what is, or is not, true, a Bayer color filter array is no less "true" RGB than a Genesis style striped color filter array.

So we don't want to mislead people now do we?

Well, I don't. But I'm not at all sure about you.

And tell them they are getting real movie quality.

That's not what I said, it's just something that you made up. As in, you "lied". I said it was highly complimented by someone who shot "commercial video". So, just for the record, here is what I actually said.

"720P HD resolution, ISO 3200, the whole Nikon line of interchangeable lenses. Here's what someone who shoots commercial video with $15,000 Red One digital cinema cameras had to say about the time he and his crew spent with some D90 bodies...

http://blog.chasejarvis.com/blog/2008/08/chase-jarvis-raw-advance-testing-nikon.html "

And again, for the record, here is what the commercial photographer and cinematographer said.

"Sure, for us pros, we’ve got the RED camera. But for everybody else? This is the future. People: this is an SLR that shoots killer video! It’s the merging of features that the pros are using and it’s made accessible the the amateur at a price point of $1200+ bucks. Trust me, I played with this feature at length...all of us on location did, for that matter. It's going to be a powerful tool. You can control your own depth of field so beautifully using the manual focus ring, the audio capture is solid, the high ISO capabilities in video?! Way cool... Long lenses, fisheyes, zoom lenses...versatility. I’m a BIG fan of the D-Movie."

So, how does that compare your posting a picture of a film camera?

Rather I suspect a few short clips of the
kids running around, nothing wrong with that mind, but not exactly
the DIY motion picture heaven some are suggesting ;-)

Well, so far all the reports are that it holds its own against any camcorder costing several times as much, including that Canon XL-2 we paid $3800 for, and is basically at the half way point between camcorders and digital cinematography cameras costing $15,000 on up.

So, I'd say people will be doing a little more than just "a few short clips of the kids running around".

--
Rahon Klavanian 1912-2008.

Armenian genocide survivor, amazing cook, scrabble master, and loving grandmother. You will be missed.

Ciao! Joseph

http://www.swissarmyfork.com

 

[tkbslc]

Thats a great announcement... but, by Spring 2010, entry DSLRs will
be $200-300. The D90 successor will be full frame with 1080p video..
etc, etc.. many things will happen in the next 18 months when Samsung
will just be introducing their new system.

I think they would be better off creating a line of high quality APSc
compacts.

2010 is only 18 months away. The new "Entry level" SLR cameras that were just realeased by Canon are $700-800 What makes you think they will drop 60+% in 18 months? Sure the D90 successor will have all kinds of new features, but it will still be over $1000 easily. Either way there will still be a whole big group of people that think an SLR is too big and want a small camera with good IQ. I think it is a great move.

 

[Joseph S Wisniewski]

And yes they do a genesis digital one, but take note..they use a true
RGB 35mm sized sensor, not a bayer sensor in sight.

Yes, by 35mm they mean slightly larger than APS, not 35mm from a
still camera. A 35mm D3 sensor has twice the real estate, the Nikon
d90 has a bout 1-2mm short in each direction . . . about 0.1 a stop
in equivalence terms. And as far as true RGB, it uses a stripped
filter array that is very similar to Bayer type designs but
incorporates less green filters and more red and blue for a
simplified binning process.

And an unfortunate tendency to "shimmer", especially when panning.

The striped filter array is sort of a "hack". It reduces the processing requirements, at the expense of about 11% lower linear resolution than a Bayer of the same pixel count, and somewhere around 20% lower sensitivity. It's something we'd expect on the earliest models, but that the industry will soon outgrow.

But hey, some people find the striped filter to be somehow more "true" than a Bayer pattern filter.

--
Rahon Klavanian 1912-2008.

Armenian genocide survivor, amazing cook, scrabble master, and loving grandmother. You will be missed.

Ciao! Joseph

http://www.swissarmyfork.com

 

[thebard37]

So, I'd say people will be doing a little more than just "a few short
clips of the kids running around".

If the D3 had this feature we would be watching clips of gustav in high def on television. They would have sold a few more to news outlets.

I would imagine that local (smallish) news outlets would love the ability to have quality HD video on demand to put up on their website, in the same body that takes their stills for publication.

--
--
Comments are always welcome.

Zach Bellino

'Nothing, like something, happens anywhere.”
-- from 'I Remember, I Remember'
Philip Larkin (1922-1985)

 

[Joseph S Wisniewski]

All makers will go to hybrids in a few years, entry-level dslrs will
be replaced by EVILs running video as well. Panny will be first
though, then Sony, then the rest.

I think Panny will have a u4/3 working model at 'Kina, and in stores
before Xmas. Since Samsung's announcement, they are going pedal to
the metal.

Don't forget, Red wants the consumer market, too. Panny has the
advantage - a sensor, and lens mount ready to go - now.

First, how do you know that the sensor they have "ready to go - now" is capable of video? So far, only CMOS (rolling shutter) and CCD (both rolling shutter and snap shutter) have demonstrated video capability. Only CMOS can bin both vertically and horizontally by shorting row and column switches. Some CCD can bin horizontally, none can bin vertically.

Panasonic has yet to demonstrate video capture, let alone capture with low light sensitivity equivalent to what is currently being done with CMOS.

Second, how do you know that this "ready to go - now" sensor is capable of working with the short back focus distance of the micro four thirds mount? Currently only Kodak (who Oly dropped as their sensor supplier), Canon (who keeps it in house), and Nikon (who won't say where it's being fabbed, but probably has it done by Sony) have demonstrated the offset microlens sensors necessary to make a short mount camera even work.

And current
4/3 lenses are backward compatible, with the adapter. True, it is not
forward compatible, but so what.

Something also to note: Panny's system is a lot easier for taking
video,

Third, and this is a really good one, how do you know which is easier? There are a lot of reports hitting the web and print from people who have actually shot with the Nikon. All we have for micro-four thirds is a half a dozen 3D renderings that may not have even originated with either Panasonic or Olympus.

and their sensor does not overheat after 5 minutes.

Fourth, how do you know that the Nikon sensor overheats after 5 minutes? The explanation that Nikon gave concerning the 5 minute limit was that it has something to do with import duties.

Nikon has proved their ability to add temperature sensors to cameras, flashes, and even lenses, and shut systems down when they really do overheat, not at some arbitrary limit. Do you think the time it takes for a device to "overheat" is the same indoors in a 72 degree ambient room, outdoors on a fall evening at 45 degrees, and outdoors on a summer afternoon with a 105 degree ambient and direct sunlight on a black camera?

Fifth, how do you know that the Panasonic doesn't overheat easier than the Nikon? Especially when you consider that it seems to have worse low light and high termperature noise problems than existing Nikon and Canon cameras, and that NMOS produces more heat than CMOS.

--
Rahon Klavanian 1912-2008.

Armenian genocide survivor, amazing cook, scrabble master, and loving grandmother. You will be missed.

Ciao! Joseph

http://www.swissarmyfork.com

 

[tweedle]

What's the UK equivalent to what Americans call a "red neck"?

Off he goes again.. ;-)

All I did was state that I didn't know what people in the UK call a
the sort of person an American would call a "red neck", and ask what
the proper term was. It should be pretty obvious that I never
suggested that you are such a person.

Of course you did not

 

[misha marinsky3]

First, how do you know that the sensor they have "ready to go - now"
is capable of video? So far, only CMOS (rolling shutter) and CCD
(both rolling shutter and snap shutter) have demonstrated video
capability. Only CMOS can bin both vertically and horizontally by
shorting row and column switches. Some CCD can bin horizontally, none
can bin vertically.

Panasonic has yet to demonstrate video capture, let alone capture
with low light sensitivity equivalent to what is currently being done
with CMOS.

I have a L1, with Live View. It works nicely. And all digicams have video capture. I was under the impression that is their foundation. I had read that Oly switched to NMOS because of heat limitations with Live View. I think that Pany announced now because they will have a model in time for 'Kina. Development times have been so much shortened since the invention of the digital computer. If I'm wrong, I stand corrected. We'll see in three weeks. It's all conjecture. If I came across as definitive instead, I'll have to be more careful in my syntax.

Second, how do you know that this "ready to go - now" sensor is
capable of working with the short back focus distance of the micro
four thirds mount? Currently only Kodak (who Oly dropped as their
sensor supplier), Canon (who keeps it in house), and Nikon (who won't
say where it's being fabbed, but probably has it done by Sony) have
demonstrated the offset microlens sensors necessary to make a short
mount camera even work.

Who knows? It must be close to fruition, if they held a press conference. I think they did this because they will have a working model at 'Kina. Pany is not like e-film - vaporware.

Something also to note: Panny's system is a lot easier for taking video,

Third, and this is a really good one, how do you know which is
easier? There are a lot of reports hitting the web and print from
people who have actually shot with the Nikon.

It's a lot easier to use an EVF, than a mirror reflex system with its attendant mechanisms. To get video with a traditional reflex system, the mirror has to do calisthetics. Nikon's system does not have autofocus. EVF systems are on the shelf. And by eliminating the mirror/prism/box, fabrication costs are significantly reduced. Look, I'm not an engineer. My degrees are in English, photography, opticianry. I'm looking at it from a different approach than you.

and their sensor does not overheat after 5 minutes.

Fourth, how do you know that the Nikon sensor overheats after 5
minutes? The explanation that Nikon gave concerning the 5 minute
limit was that it has something to do with import duties.

I had read that it was limited because of heat. If I'm wrong, OK.

Fifth, how do you know that the Panasonic doesn't overheat easier
than the Nikon? Especially when you consider that it seems to have
worse low light and high termperature noise problems than existing
Nikon and Canon cameras, and that NMOS produces more heat than CMOS.

Slow down...OK, OK. First, I spent 22 years as an optician. I worked with simple optics, so that's what I'm used to. I guess that's the prism (no pun intended) I look through.

As I wrote above, I read that Oly switched to Pany for Live View because of technical limitations. If I was given misinformation, then I regurgitated wrong statements. I also said this before: I should not have come across as definitive, instead of conjecture.

http://ubereye.deviantart.com/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/ubereye/

 

[Kikl]

And yes they do a genesis digital one, but take note..they use a true
RGB 35mm sized sensor, not a bayer sensor in sight.

Well, actually most of those panavision cameras are rebranded arriflex, so look at the true market leader here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arri

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arriflex_D-20

"The Arri Group has been the largest world wide supplier of high quality motion picture film equipment since 1917. Arri, named after founders August Arnold and Robert Richter, is the largest manufacturer of professional motion picture equipment, film cameras (16, 35, and 65/70 mm) and cinematic lighting equipment in the world.[1] In recent years they have expanded into post-production equipment with the Arrilaser, and in 2000 purchased Moviecam to refine their new camera platform Arricam. In 1937 the Arri Group introduced the world's first reflex mirror shutter in the Arriflex 35 camera, an invention of their longtime engineer Erich Kaestner. This technology employs a rotating mirror that allows a continuous motor to operate the camera while providing parallax-free reflex viewing to the operator, and the ability to focus the image by eye through the viewfinder, much like an SLR camera for still photography. This technology is still employed today in almost every motion picture camera.[2]."

They actually use 35 mm CMOS sensors...

Kikl

 

[Kikl]

They actually use 35 mm CMOS sensors...

Check out the real market leader here:



Here's a video introducing the camera.

http://www.arri.de/prod/cam/d_21/clip/d-21_at_nab2008.html

Kikl

 

[Barry Fitzgerald]

Got any statistics to support that? And why would you suppose that
the use of film in cinema isn't going to fall off as quickly as it
did in still photography, as processor and storage price/performance
ratios continue to improve?

Sure it will get better, but its well known most movies are still shot on film. Not all true, but the ratio currently is very heavily towards film. Ok that may change, but there are the same benefits that 35mm offers for users over digital for stills, better DR, smoother tonal response, better colour graduations, higher resolution. Over time they will get there, but they are not there yet.

But several of the other digital cinema cameras do use Bayer sensors.
This includes the Arriflex D-20, Dalsa Origin, Sony CineAlta, the
Panasonic Varicam, and the Red One which is taking the digital
cinematography field by storm.

Bayer is a stop gap, good enough, but in the end they will go back to a full blown 3 layer sensor, give it time.

By the way, since you occasionally seem to have a problem with the
concept of what is, or is not, true, a Bayer color filter array is no
less "true" RGB than a Genesis style striped color filter array.

Well must be a reason they don't use the bayer pattern, dont you think??

So, I'd say people will be doing a little more than just "a few short
clips of the kids running around".

I can't see dedicated video shooters getting a D90, but they I could be wrong ;-)



I am not the 'Ghost Hunter', nor am I the Irish actor in the 'Quiet Man' ;-)