FF , D645 and Samsung Korean endeavor

[D TONG]

This is a conspiracy theory that nobody in here looked at it in this direction.

Being Asian , I am very concious about the deep rooted anismosity between the Japanese and Koreans

Google Sohn Kee-Chung and you will know what I mean. Being a colony completely exploited, Koreans have been trying to turn around and demonstrate that it is no longer a backward country. Nothing will please the Koreans if the latter can beat out Canon/Nikon - the old master. Samsung has been working on it for some time. It has taken over Pentax mount very cheap which WAS the dominant players in the 70 & 80s. Samsung beat all of us by bringing in out of the blue a huge 14 MP cmos sensor.

The question is what is in their bag now? And here comes the FF suggestion from Samsung staff? The signs are everywhere?

Korean mindset can be demonstrated in their fixation of doing thing big way with huge government backup. First it was shipbuilding and then DRAM. The Government dictated what was to be the direction and they wasted no time and expense to achieve the goal. Market share is the name of the game rather than profitability

My hunch is that it would be something that is bigger like D645 rather than FF as both Canon & Nikon have FF already. D645 may come out with a sticker price of around $5K which is within reach given the fast pace of electronic development (tell me about the drop in LCD price). In one big stroke , Samsung Pentax can establish itself as a premium player and nobody can beat them in the resolution or high pixel count game. Its market may be small but the psychological effect is huge. The costs to Samsung is little as well as everything is there already except for the sensor.

BTW Samsung is marketing its own dslr and all they need is just the Pentax mount (shell).

The point that I want to make is that there will be surprise and surprise. A yr ago who would believe Nikon could bring out a low pixel count FF (D3) or a large 14M cmos sensor from Samsung?

Well speculation?

Daniel, Toronto
http://www.pbase.com/danieltong

 

[SFT007]

Hello Daniel,

I think in today's digital and fast paced world anything is possible. Yes, anything. That's why it amuses me when I see the same old farts who just can't seem to grasp the fast natured way the world works today. They cite things from the past and talk about this and that and why it will never happen, etc. We saw the same thing with Nikon before the D3 and now look. We heard the same thing about how Samsung had no experience, etc. and couln't make a good sensor and now look. They all can't help but sing praises on both accounts...

My point is just about everything everyone says on here is mostly BS and pure speculation based on how attached they feel to their machines, brand and of course wallet/budget - people actually make claims based on these things too often. Thus, all the bias one way or the other. In the end anything is possible and my personal speculation (even though I have no interest in one) is that indeed if something happens a 645D will come before a 35mm FF will. They will both require new lens lines so why try to beat CaNikon in their own game, it would IMO make more sense to go the route Pentax is famous for the MF market and utilize their image and brand there and release a new line of lenses, etc. for the MF market. Of course we do see Pentax's funds are limited but after the new lenses are released and after the launch of the KXD and KXXXD I do think Pentax will seriously reconsider their 645D project and I do feel Samsung would also be interested and could provide a sensor. With the ever decreasing costs a 645D might not cost so much more than FF camera in a few years maybe, especially now that Pentax/Samsung have this realtionship and Samsung sure have a lot of money and can even maybe afford to accept low profits for such a sensor to win over a largely untapped digital MF market? Of course there is always the possibilty that Pentax would release a bunch of new lens lines for 35mm FF and also bring out the K10D of 35mm FF (like Canon 5D but only better) a FF camera for the enthusiast (not pro) and price it accordingly basically but IMO I think the 645D project makes more sense. But hey - this is all also just pure speculation so who knows maybe theyll just stick to APS for years to come, one thing is for sure though - anything is possible in this day and age...

Cheers
--
Sinan
http://sinantarlan.zenfolio.com/

 

[whatever8]

Being Asian myself, I know exactly what you mean by the racism between Asian couuntries. But you can't expect Samsung to act like Sony did even if Samsung is a Jaapanese company. Look at Sony's history, with Ericsson and CBbS music, they simply does a better job at enbrancing an existant brand and strong arm into a new market. Panasonic for example, hasn't done as good a job with Olympus.

I think Samsung need to start making a K-mount body tthat's not design by Pentax as a first step.

 

[thomas47]

Daniel:

I hope you're correct; I had been waiting for the 645D, but now I am starting to consider waiting for the FF Sony. One concern: how well can Korean and Japanese companies cooperate?
--
Tom

 

[D TONG]

Daniel:

I hope you're correct; I had been waiting for the 645D, but now I am
starting to consider waiting for the FF Sony. One concern: how well
can Korean and Japanese companies cooperate?
--
Tom

If you have time you should see this vdo and the comments

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wbJdiT6TPN0

Very very moving story/history indeed. That tells you a lot about the relationship between the Koreans and Japanese

Samsung does not need the Japanese company at all. They just have K mount or D645 format.

I am sure Samsung is into something big and they may not go by the financial return at all. Given its size , Samsung is entirely capable of doing it. Beating the colonial master (Japan in the form of Nikon/Canon) in the marketplace may be a national goal for the Koreans.

Daniel, Toronto
http://www.pbase.com/danieltong

 

[Austrillium]

Wow...some pure old common sense.

Finally.

The point needs to be made though .... what it all means.

What it means is that, no matter what happens we can have a relatively high confidence that K mount lenses will have a camera to fit on to for some considerable time into the future.

Pentax....and now Samsung have something that none of the other brands have...backward compatability with lenses.

My money is on Samsung in the long term...but either way... what matters to me is that I can keep buying glass with reasonable confidence that I will always be able to buy a quality camera to attach it to.

 

[thomas47]

Does Samsung have access or rights to 645 mount and the lenses? I would think the Japanese would be very reluctant to allow a Korean company to absorb an old, well-regarded Japanese company.
--
Tom

 

[D TONG]

Does Samsung have access or rights to 645 mount and the lenses? I
would think the Japanese would be very reluctant to allow a Korean
company to absorb an old, well-regarded Japanese company.
--
Tom

I believe there isn't any patent for using K or 645 mount. It is just a mount. Nobody will stop Samsung from doing that.

They are not interested in taking over well-regarded company and Pentax IS only a small player unlike the time during the 70s or 80s. What is revitalising Samsung is in challenging if not overtaking the Japanese (re. Canon/Nikon) - their old colonial master. Same thing happens in LCD and plastma TV market

Daniel, Toronto
http://www.pbase.com/danieltong

 

[xmeda]

http://www.amateurphotographer.co.uk/news/Samsung_hints_at_fullframe_sensor_for_professional_digital_SLR_camera_news_227234.html

Samsung hints at full-frame camera

 

[D TONG]

http://www.amateurphotographer.co.uk/news/Samsung_hints_at_fullframe_sensor_for_professional_digital_SLR_camera_news_227234.html

Samsung hints at full-frame camera

My hunch is that it would be something that is bigger like D645 rather than FF as both Canon & Nikon have FF already. Samsung going FF is just so-so news and does not cause a ripple. D645 is some trend-setting move. D645 may come out with a sticker price of around $5K which is within reach given the fast pace of electronic development (tell me about the drop in LCD price). In one big stroke , Samsung Pentax can establish itself as a premium player (King of Resolution) and nobody can beat them in the resolution or high pixel count game. Its market may be small but the psychological effect is huge. The costs to Samsung is little as well as everything is there already except for the sensor.

Daniel, Toronto
http://www.pbase.com/danieltong

 

[adrian4765]

They could just use Pentax's 645 mount. Opens up their hypothetical digital MF camera to the same legacy support enjoyed by the current KA mount cameras.

I agree that Samsung/Pentax has more to gain by going to 645 or even 67. Doing a 35mm camera would just be playing catch-up to Canon, Nikon and soon Sony AND could/would cannibalise sales for their top end APS-C camera (it has to be priced competitively to the other three, thus making its price within spitting distance of the APS-C model). Neither of those three have any presence in the medium format market, whereas Pentax is well established with their highly-regarded film cameras.
--
Photos @ http://www.flickr.com/photos/trippy-purple-cloud/

 

[Roland Mabo]

According to official sources, the 14Mp CMOS is co-developed by Samsung and Pentax. It is the fruits of "Pentax CMOS know-how and Samsung's expertise in semiconductors". Do also note that the DSLR's labeled by Samsung are designed and built by Pentax, using Pentax technology and expertise. A few of the components are bought from Samsung. To give a figure I would say that they are 90% Pentax and 10% Samsung.

So Samsung has not done an entry in DSLR field by themselves, they have choosen a partner to help them out. It is a win-win situation for both Pentax and Samsung.
--
Take care
R
http://www.flickr.com/photos/raphaelmabo

 

[nosnoop]

My hunch is that it would be something that is bigger like D645
rather than FF

I still feel all these talk about the ultra top end and ultra expensive camera from Samsung is very premature. Seriously, they don't even have a foothold in the entry and mid level market segment! Their entry level is still *ist generation. So Samsung has to make something happen in those market segments before thinking of putting out a "halo product" or a flagship to attract people to their brand. Right now, they simply do have enough products to offer to people who may be attracted to the brand by a top end camera.

 

[philbarton]

According to official sources, the 14Mp CMOS is co-developed by
Samsung and Pentax. It is the fruits of "Pentax CMOS know-how and
Samsung's expertise in semiconductors". Do also note that the DSLR's
labeled by Samsung are designed and built by Pentax, using Pentax
technology and expertise. A few of the components are bought from
Samsung. To give a figure I would say that they are 90% Pentax and
10% Samsung.

So Samsung has not done an entry in DSLR field by themselves, they
have choosen a partner to help them out. It is a win-win situation
for both Pentax and Samsung.
--
Take care
R
http://www.flickr.com/photos/raphaelmabo

=========

In whose plants are the cameras built? This becomes a question of cross-licensing in some cases. If Samsung-provided plants are used, then Pentax becomes dependent on Samsung for production; and of course the inverse would be true.

I find it hard to believe that Samsung will be plunging deeper into advanced DSLR's without control of the production facilities. Hoya could essentially drop the camera division at any time - but if they are contractually bound to Samsung to remain a partner, that would explain in part why Hoya is sticking with it.

 

[edhannon]

Speculation on the future path of technology is one of the least accurate of all endevours.

Having said that, I believe that there are some factors that need to be considered for the short term future of digital photography.

The digital sensor requires more space than film. Take the lens off a digital camera and off a film camera. You will see that the digital sensor requires a frame around it that is not present in a film camera.

Thus, if you add a digital sensor to an existing film mechanical design, the digital sensor will be smaller than the film. THus, you must redesign the mechanical features of the camera to add a digital sensor.

So, if you are going to change a K20D to FF you must almost start over with the mechnaical design of the camera base.

It would seem to me that the most ROI (return on investment) would come from keeping the basic mechanical design of the Pentax 35mm camera and concentrating on improving the density and noise characteristics of the APS-C sensors.

Ed Hannon
http://www.pbase.com/edhannon

 

[65tigershark]

Wow...some pure old common sense.

Finally.

The point needs to be made though .... what it all means.

What it means is that, no matter what happens we can have a
relatively high confidence that K mount lenses will have a camera to
fit on to for some considerable time into the future.

Pentax....and now Samsung have something that none of the other
brands have...backward compatability with lenses.

If the rumoured drop of the screwdrive AF from the cheaper bodies eventuates, they will lose that backward compatibility, as many older AF lenses are screwdrive AF.

My money is on Samsung in the long term...but either way... what
matters to me is that I can keep buying glass with reasonable
confidence that I will always be able to buy a quality camera to
attach it to.

 

[65tigershark]

http://www.amateurphotographer.co.uk/news/Samsung_hints_at_fullframe_sensor_for_professional_digital_SLR_camera_news_227234.html

Samsung hints at full-frame camera

My hunch is that it would be something that is bigger like D645
rather than FF as both Canon & Nikon have FF already. Samsung going
FF is just so-so news and does not cause a ripple. D645 is some
trend-setting move. D645 may come out with a sticker price of around
$5K which is within reach given the fast pace of electronic
development (tell me about the drop in LCD price). In one big stroke
, Samsung Pentax can establish itself as a premium player (King of
Resolution) and nobody can beat them in the resolution or high pixel
count game. Its market may be small but the psychological effect is
huge. The costs to Samsung is little as well as everything is there
already except for the sensor.

Daniel, Toronto
http://www.pbase.com/danieltong

Would the 645d have fast AF, super long tele lenses, and a high fps rate, usable for sports shooting? I doubt it.

Just because Nikon and Canon already have FF isn't a reason for Pentax/Samsung NOT to do it. IMO. When a prospective buyer eyes off the camera line-ups and their ability to advance towards the top end, having a FF camera would be an added bonus, especially when everyone else does. It makes the Pentax line-up look incomplete without a FF body. IMO.

If Pentax/Samsung put out a KXD FF camera that could match the D3 from Nikon in AF, fps, predictive AF, etc, then the 645D, they would be set. The KxD would attract sports shooters, action shooters, even lanscape shooters who want the wide angle, who want that arrangement, just like the D3 is and 5D did/is, and the 645D would be an ideal suppliment for studio/portrait work, which I believe is where the MF excels. Canon are eyeing the studio market with the 21MP 1DsMk3 and Nikon with the rumoured 24MP Dsx. So why shouldn't Pentax/Samsung eye that market with a proper camera for it?

A KxD FF for around the $3 000 mark, with the 645D around the $5 000 mark.

Both would greatly appeal to me.

But this is just my opinion, feel free to disagree.

Andrew

 

[D TONG]

Would the 645d have fast AF, super long tele lenses, and a high fps
rate, usable for sports shooting? I doubt it.

There is no need for the 645d format.

A KxD FF for around the $3 000 mark, with the 645D around the $5 000
mark.>
Both would greatly appeal to me.

$3K & $5K the price point for FF & D645 are not exactly outlandish given the fast pace advance in the field of electronics. When consumer electronic comes down in price , it could be free fall. It is happening. The question is just when.

Hehe I just got a brandname micro SD 2 g card at Can/US$14 all inclusive. That was unheard of just a yr ago

Daniel, Toronto
http://www.pbase.com/danieltong

 

[Voff]

The digital sensor requires more space than film. Take the lens off
a digital camera and off a film camera. You will see that the
digital sensor requires a frame around it that is not present in a
film camera.

Not true. The film canister and film path take up space. So does the considerate mechanical filrm transport plus the motordrive driving it....

The sensor itself hardly take up space. The image processing electronics take space but theres much room for miniaturization.

 

[Alexramos]

-Sony buy Konica-Minolta mount and is together Carl Zeiss

-Samsung will "buy" Pentax mount and will be together Schneider-Kreuznach....

The same history...?????????????????????????????????