I despise challenge 14

[1ofUs!]

I will take any experience offered, as I have so little of it. I've been doing this for a whole...6 months? Something like that. And no experience before that. I am a whole 15 years old, so it may be a few years before I'm even into photography 101. But one thing, I don't think any photographer couldn't learn from a challenge, no matter how experienced. I am not even talking specifically about this challenge. Just "the challenge" which lives up to its name. As for the photojournalism. Nobody has said yet that the pictures don't have to have people in them to be photojournalism. My mom's "Tranquility Disturbed" series doesn't have people, except for me and my sister on horses, which are more of a landscape anyway!

Sarah

Well, I havn't mastered it all (; But I did spent 4 years studying
it in university and it's been a pretty big part of my life since
then (not professionally though, unfortunatly) so,yeah, I pretty
much have covered most of this before. It reminds me alot of my
first semester.

In fact I can remember one of my "photo 101" classes where a bunch
of students walked in with pictures of homeless people and a
similar argument ensued . Over the years we learned how to deal
with our subjects in a more in depth manner. Just trying to impart
some of my experience. Take it or leave it.
--
-fg

--CindyD or SarahD (dpreview won't let us each have an account!)If one of us is laughing, and the other one isn't, one of us must be wrong...

 

[Shutter.]

Hey Zip,

I wish I would have said it so succinctly. Things.... getting... hazy...

not the subject - fotojournalism but using poor people for
"sports"!!! Don´t be mad at me - and the fotos are good in a
tecnical way - but this is just not right.

We are fortunate enough to be relatively wealthy, we normally look
the other way when we see people like them on the street. It feels
just not right to use them - unwillingly and unknowing for our
hobby and as a way to win a contest.

So don´t be mad at me - you all are a great people and I don´t want
to criticise you - but this subject just seems not right to me.

Photo-journalism...hmmmm...its 2 words really...isnt it.
So...is it ok to write or read about it but not ok to see images of
it???

Phil Collins wrote a song called "Another Day in Paradise" and made
millions on it. Why dont you go write a letter to him about
exploiting the homeless.
--
cheers
Zip
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
BFS: been there had that...got the t-shirt
Sticker Status: ON...but on upsidedown
Pie Chute: UnCorked
Lens Cap: No dangle at any angle
128mem stick: lost
Real Name: Michael C
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

--Jim FuglestadWhy simply live and let live? Live and help live. http://www.pbase.com/jfuglestad/galleries

 

[Rick Webb]

Photography can be provocative, and like all other provocative art, the reactions perhaps mostly tell us about the provoked. Witness the range of reactions.

--Rick Webb

 

[Joe Olson]

Shutter,

After reading all 59 posts prior,,, I wanted to thank you for getting a little "riled" up about this.

While reading I noticed the "watchwords" like, "not discussing religion or politics" (being the basis of our lives, how can this be of such little import to speak openly and frankly about when the topics come up in a civilized discussion???). Oh, and there was a good one about the "unfairness" of a golden society allowing people to just sleep on the streets. Oh how could we? I could feel the sickness of political correctness (pure and simple communisim) just seething underneith some of the posts.

I thank God I live in a "golden" country where some citizens can choose to sleep in a street if they wish. Other citizens don't even have the right to harm or chase them away! Wow, sure is better than getting dragged off and beaten like elsewhere in the world....

I am glad you took a stand for what you believe. I really enjoyed the Jerimiah story. Sounds like you are doing a wonderfull job with your kids! Thanks for raising good citizens!

joe

 

[Alfred Eder]

I agree - but Jimmy this is our hobby. We are not on this level!!! This is fun, we us the photojournalism contest purely for fun. No one here is on a level with eg. Frank Capra.

regards

Alfred

I can only speak for myself - it's not about only posting pretty
photos, it's about photographing people without their knowledge or
approval and then publishing the photo.

Remember the famous shot of that nine years old Vietnamese girl
running in the streets totally naked during an air raid?

Do you think the photographer obtained her premission or told her
about it? No ...

So what makes photos that shows the truth about poor people in US
cities any different?

jc

--www.pbase.com/destinyx1

 

[Alfred Eder]

I expressed just an opinion Mark. I know of the effects of such photos in newspapers et al. We are just not on this level. Pictures of hungry and dying children in Africa are shocking and unfortunately necessary to get us to open our mony bags...

I just felt extremly pitty for the images of homeless people used "just" for a stf contest.

regards

Alfred
--www.pbase.com/destinyx1

 

[Jimmy Chen]

I agree - but Jimmy this is our hobby. We are not on this level!!!
This is fun, we us the photojournalism contest purely for fun. No
one here is on a level with eg. Frank Capra.

I agree for most of us here this is a hobby. But dont forget this is also photography, where one can narrow down the "field of study" and specialize on a given subject matter ... Some likes flowers, some likes landscape, some like portraits, some like birds, and it just happens there are also some here like to use their cameras to document real events and stories ...

jc

 

[Ann Chaikin]

Oh, and there was a
good one about the "unfairness" of a golden society allowing people
to just sleep on the streets. Oh how could we? I could feel the
sickness of political correctness (pure and simple communisim) just
seething underneith some of the posts.

Excuse me!!! You are making a big assumption here in your comment on my post. Frankly, it pisses me off that you "see the sickness of political correctness (pure and simple communism)" simply because it bothers me that we have such a wide disparity between the wealth of some and the poverty of others. A bit arrogant of you it seems to me. It is much easier to call somebody names than it is to listen to what they have to say. You have absolutely no idea from my post what my political opinion is except that I object to the fact that we can have people with billions of dollars, yachts, fleets of cars, and conspicuous consumption while others are homeless. Did I say anything about what kind of government we need?
--formerly known as PT Kitty > ^..^

 

[Alfred Eder]

Difficult matter. The war in Somalie - I grant it might have been influenced by public opinion. Allthough I doubt it - changes normally result on economic reasons. If public opinion is so mighty why isn´t the "unfair" war of the Israelis stopped?

The fall of Berlin Wall certainly did not come from public opinion (of western Europe people or elsewhere) but from the crumbling of a foul economic and political order.

regards

Alfred
--www.pbase.com/destinyx1

 

[Alfred Eder]

point taken Jimmy

I agree - but Jimmy this is our hobby. We are not on this level!!!
This is fun, we us the photojournalism contest purely for fun. No
one here is on a level with eg. Frank Capra.

I agree for most of us here this is a hobby. But dont forget this
is also photography, where one can narrow down the "field of study"
and specialize on a given subject matter ... Some likes flowers,
some likes landscape, some like portraits, some like birds, and it
just happens there are also some here like to use their cameras to
document real events and stories ...

jc

--www.pbase.com/destinyx1

 

[Alfred Eder]

Great you do this Jimmy. But reefs all around the world are dying because of global warming. Consider this! It should be well known that lowering global warming is necessary. There has even been a treaty to lower it...guess who is the greatest producer of GW? Right the USA. Guess who resent the treaty!?

regards

Alfred
--www.pbase.com/destinyx1

 

[Joe Olson]

Oh, Ouch! Did I touch a nerve?

No disrespect intended, but I notice you did not refute my "assumption". Feel free. No animosity on this end. Didn't mean to "pick" on your particular post. I just pulled it off of my memory.

Of course, I feel its a little (insert non incitefull adjetive) to assume that just because some have much, they are somehow "obligated" by others to redistribute their "wealth" according to someones wishes who hasn't bothered to EARN the wealth. I think it is an awesome privelege to belong to a society that allows such disparity. At least both parties have a choice!

I certinally did not intend to infer that you were a "communist". That is why I specificly avoided copying your post. I merely used what you had mentioned as a reference as to where many of the posts are headed in a very PC type direction. Which, by the way I don't believe is all bad, just mostly.

regards,
joe

Oh, and there was a
good one about the "unfairness" of a golden society allowing people
to just sleep on the streets. Oh how could we? I could feel the
sickness of political correctness (pure and simple communisim) just
seething underneith some of the posts.

Excuse me!!! You are making a big assumption here in your comment
on my post. Frankly, it pisses me off that you "see the sickness
of political correctness (pure and simple communism)" simply
because it bothers me that we have such a wide disparity between
the wealth of some and the poverty of others. A bit arrogant of
you it seems to me. It is much easier to call somebody names than
it is to listen to what they have to say. You have absolutely no
idea from my post what my political opinion is except that I object
to the fact that we can have people with billions of dollars,
yachts, fleets of cars, and conspicuous consumption while others
are homeless. Did I say anything about what kind of government we
need?

--
formerly known as PT Kitty > ^..^

http://www.pbase.com/ptkitty/galleries

 

[Alfred Eder]

Sorry to have upset you. It was not my intention. And yes I watch the news.

Shutter I like you and your images, I do not want to hurt someone and I am sorry I posted it at the end of the contest (didn´t have time before).

I know that the word "despise" is hard, but I wanted to draw attention on a matter that felt wrong to me.

Sorry you are upset. Hope you don´t take it personally. Anyway I have considered what you said and got the point.

regards

Alfred

My God, photojournalism is a part of daily lives. Of course, we
could always have our news spoon fed to us by state sponsored news
agencies. Or, we could look at the world through comic books or
sketches or something. Oh, maybe we should just read fairy tales,
even print news is too offensive.

So, if there is a riot and I take pictures of it, that's not okay?
Or is it just not okay if its a homeless person? What about police
beating someone? What's okay? What's not? To say that you hate
photojournalism to me means that you must choose to want to live in
a shell and not get real news. Do you watch the news?

Frankly, I thank God that I live in a country that allows freedom
of the press and free speech. I'm glad that if there are homeless
people, I know it. I'm glad that anyone can choose to tell a story
about it. Is it none of our business? I don't know, that's an
argument, and maybe could have been a subject of a thread. I think
it is our business. I pay taxes, many homeless make the streets
less safe, many sleep on public property. I've had to step over
passed out drunk homeless people with my family. You're damned
straight its my business. If its not my business, then I don't
want to watch any news specials that pull on my heart strings to
feel sorry for the homeless. It can't be spun only one way. Don't
ask me to give money to the homeless if I also can't see the way it
really is. C'mon, I'm getting more mad the more I type.

And besides, Alfred, did you ask Kim or Amy if they asked for
permission? Oh, guess not. What's that saying about
assumptions......?

And to say that you despise the challenge based on a couple entries
is more sensational than the pictures themselves. Most entries are
fun, heartwarming, and interesting, and you just said you despise
the whole challenge? What's wrong with you?! Are you trying to
cheapen the whole thing?

I probably should have taken a day to think about my response
rather than just dive in, but the challenge would be over by then -
duh.

Enjoy your flowers and sunsets.

Jim

not the subject - fotojournalism but using poor people for
"sports"!!! Don´t be mad at me - and the fotos are good in a
tecnical way - but this is just not right.

We are fortunate enough to be relatively wealthy, we normally look
the other way when we see people like them on the street. It feels
just not right to use them - unwillingly and unknowing for our
hobby and as a way to win a contest.

So don´t be mad at me - you all are a great people and I don´t want
to criticise you - but this subject just seems not right to me.

regards

Alfred
--
http://www.pbase.com/destinyx1

--
Jim Fuglestad
Why simply live and let live? Live and help live.
http://www.pbase.com/jfuglestad/galleries

--www.pbase.com/destinyx1

 

[Alfred Eder]

Sorry Shutter, when I wrote this I wasn´t even aware that it is you who host the contest...I just saw the image. And I have to admit that the image is technically good, I think I even told Amy that it is good. It just does not feel right for me to do this.

Sorry again if i chose the wrong words. It was just my humble opinion.

regards

Alfred

My God, photojournalism is a part of daily lives. Of course, we
could always have our news spoon fed to us by state sponsored news
agencies. Or, we could look at the world through comic books or
sketches or something. Oh, maybe we should just read fairy tales,
even print news is too offensive.

So, if there is a riot and I take pictures of it, that's not okay?
Or is it just not okay if its a homeless person? What about police
beating someone? What's okay? What's not? To say that you hate
photojournalism to me means that you must choose to want to live in
a shell and not get real news. Do you watch the news?

Frankly, I thank God that I live in a country that allows freedom
of the press and free speech. I'm glad that if there are homeless
people, I know it. I'm glad that anyone can choose to tell a story
about it. Is it none of our business? I don't know, that's an
argument, and maybe could have been a subject of a thread. I think
it is our business. I pay taxes, many homeless make the streets
less safe, many sleep on public property. I've had to step over
passed out drunk homeless people with my family. You're damned
straight its my business. If its not my business, then I don't
want to watch any news specials that pull on my heart strings to
feel sorry for the homeless. It can't be spun only one way. Don't
ask me to give money to the homeless if I also can't see the way it
really is. C'mon, I'm getting more mad the more I type.

And besides, Alfred, did you ask Kim or Amy if they asked for
permission? Oh, guess not. What's that saying about
assumptions......?

And to say that you despise the challenge based on a couple entries
is more sensational than the pictures themselves. Most entries are
fun, heartwarming, and interesting, and you just said you despise
the whole challenge? What's wrong with you?! Are you trying to
cheapen the whole thing?

I probably should have taken a day to think about my response
rather than just dive in, but the challenge would be over by then -
duh.

Enjoy your flowers and sunsets.

Jim

not the subject - fotojournalism but using poor people for
"sports"!!! Don´t be mad at me - and the fotos are good in a
tecnical way - but this is just not right.

We are fortunate enough to be relatively wealthy, we normally look
the other way when we see people like them on the street. It feels
just not right to use them - unwillingly and unknowing for our
hobby and as a way to win a contest.

So don´t be mad at me - you all are a great people and I don´t want
to criticise you - but this subject just seems not right to me.

regards

Alfred
--
http://www.pbase.com/destinyx1

--
Jim Fuglestad
Why simply live and let live? Live and help live.
http://www.pbase.com/jfuglestad/galleries

--www.pbase.com/destinyx1

 

[-------------]

in my opinion - the image in question is an excellent 'story teller'. whether it is shot for an STF ph journalism challenge or for a news paper or image bank is insignificant - it 'opens ppl's eyes' and evokes emotion which is a good thing. wish i had shot it myself actually!--Nik http://www.pbase.com/nik

 

[Alfred Eder]

Excuse me Shutter, but you are of the line now.

You're a special kind of fella, ain't ya?

You tout your 1.7 years here..... how come no one has heard of you?
Has anyone seen anything from you?

Don't condescend to us. You don't know the first thing about us or
where we are as photographers.

Are you this arrogant in real life?

First of all, this is Sarah now! not Cindy lol.

tricky, you two...

The way I see it, if ya put a picture up on the web, it's open to
critique. Arguably, it was put up as an example of photo
journalism, so I am discussing it in that broader sense.

I wouldn't really say arguably. What's the point of putting an icon
photo for the challenge if it doesn't represent the challenge theme?

Right, and I was saying it was not an example of photojournalism.

We'll see if my interests intersect with that of the next
challenge. Overall i guess I don't really see the need for it for
myself.

The challenges don't have to necessarily be what you're interested
in. That's why they are challenges, to kind of "broaden your
horizons," at least that's my take. Unless you've already mastered
it all?

Well, I havn't mastered it all (; But I did spent 4 years studying
it in university and it's been a pretty big part of my life since
then (not professionally though, unfortunatly) so,yeah, I pretty
much have covered most of this before. It reminds me alot of my
first semester.

In fact I can remember one of my "photo 101" classes where a bunch
of students walked in with pictures of homeless people and a
similar argument ensued . Over the years we learned how to deal
with our subjects in a more in depth manner. Just trying to impart
some of my experience. Take it or leave it.
--
-fg

--
Jim Fuglestad
Why simply live and let live? Live and help live.
http://www.pbase.com/jfuglestad/galleries

--www.pbase.com/destinyx1

 

[Mark J]

Hi Alfred.....

jeez I've missed a great deal since my last post!

You know what..... I'm actually rreally glad you posted this thread Aflred. Know why??

People were beginning to think we were all washed up so to speak. (this STF). I've heard several people complaining that there wasn't any stimulating conversation going on anymore. That there wasn't anymore chat other than Sears PM posts. (and guess who was one of them te he..... Shutter)

I guess Shutter got what he wanted now......
serious, stimulating, nerve pinching, gut wrenching, emotional thread posts.



Night, night Alfred. Relax Shutter, keep speaking up everyone... it's fun!

I expressed just an opinion Mark. I know of the effects of such
photos in newspapers et al. We are just not on this level. Pictures
of hungry and dying children in Africa are shocking and
unfortunately necessary to get us to open our mony bags...

I just felt extremly pitty for the images of homeless people used
"just" for a stf contest.

regards

Alfred

--
http://www.pbase.com/destinyx1

 

[Alfred Eder]

Again, I am sorry - it was not my intention I only wanted to state my opinion. Wish I had not.

It was just called to my attention that I missed the part of your
thread about the homeless guy on crutches. Let me tell you about
Jeremiah. This story is 100% the truth. I saw saw this man in
downtown minneapolis. I saw him dig into the garbage and find his
lunch. I walked over to him and gave him $10. He was extremely
surprised that someone came up and gave him money without him
asking for it. You should have seen his reaction when he realized
it was a $10, not a $1. He said he was going to buy listerine. I
didn't quite hear him, so asked "what are you going to get?", he
thought I was judging him and changed his answer to coffee. I
said, "Hey, I don't care what you buy, get what you need". He
replied again "okay then, I'll get listerine". He then introduced
himself as Jeremiah, and said he was just going to call me James
Dean (black leather coat, jeans, black leather boots, etc...). We
talked for quite a while and it was a very personal and touching
exchange for me. So, I wanted to remember him so I took a few
pictures of him. When I was home that night editing my pics, my 3
and 4 year old jumped on my lap (as they frequently do when I'm
editing pics) and asked "who is that, daddy?". I told them it was
Jeremiah, and he was homeless. Of course, they didn't quite
understand "homeless" (so I thought). Well, that night, as we were
saying our prayers as usual, where they fight me and joke around,
etc..... well, that night they sat down and out of the blue my
oldest prays "and help Jeremiah get a house", and my daughter
chimes in "yeah, he needs to live somewhere!" And now Jeremiah is
prayed for every night right after grandma and grandpa. I've never
asked them to, or reminded them to. They just do it.

Thanks for cheapening it for me.

So, if there is a riot and I take pictures of it, that's not okay?
Or is it just not okay if its a homeless person? What about police
beating someone? What's okay? What's not? To say that you hate
photojournalism to me means that you must choose to want to live in
a shell and not get real news. Do you watch the news?

Alfred's point was that people seemed to be using homeless people
as their way into the gallery. Those photographers are using their
images to get little pats-on-the-back
look-at-me-i'm-a-serious-photographer points from the fellow forum
members.

Comparing these silly challenge entries to riot coverage or police
brutality is a bit of a stretch. None of those images were
reporting such injustices. All I know

And besides, Alfred, did you ask Kim or Amy if they asked for
permission? Oh, guess not. What's that saying about
assumptions......?

Kim's photos are a decent portrait of people she knows well and has
conveyed their personality to the rest of us... the one of the guy
with the crutches with the kids in the background is exploitive,
even if someone got his permission. It shows no depth of
character. It's a pure oneliner gawkfest.

--
-fg

--
Jim Fuglestad
Why simply live and let live? Live and help live.
http://www.pbase.com/jfuglestad/galleries

--www.pbase.com/destinyx1

 

[Joe Olson]

Ann,

I am sorry, but I neglected to tell you that in my opinion, your particular post was one of the finest in this thread. And, you have every right to be upset with me since I of course was using your comment to my own "assumption".

Of course, I do that to make a point. I know sometimes that upsets people, but if somebody thinks about something from a different viewpoint, I have obtained my objective even if their mind is not changed.

joe

No disrespect intended, but I notice you did not refute my
"assumption". Feel free. No animosity on this end. Didn't mean
to "pick" on your particular post. I just pulled it off of my
memory.

Of course, I feel its a little (insert non incitefull adjetive) to
assume that just because some have much, they are somehow
"obligated" by others to redistribute their "wealth" according to
someones wishes who hasn't bothered to EARN the wealth. I think it
is an awesome privelege to belong to a society that allows such
disparity. At least both parties have a choice!

I certinally did not intend to infer that you were a "communist".
That is why I specificly avoided copying your post. I merely used
what you had mentioned as a reference as to where many of the posts
are headed in a very PC type direction. Which, by the way I don't
believe is all bad, just mostly.

regards,
joe

Oh, and there was a
good one about the "unfairness" of a golden society allowing people
to just sleep on the streets. Oh how could we? I could feel the
sickness of political correctness (pure and simple communisim) just
seething underneith some of the posts.

Excuse me!!! You are making a big assumption here in your comment
on my post. Frankly, it pisses me off that you "see the sickness
of political correctness (pure and simple communism)" simply
because it bothers me that we have such a wide disparity between
the wealth of some and the poverty of others. A bit arrogant of
you it seems to me. It is much easier to call somebody names than
it is to listen to what they have to say. You have absolutely no
idea from my post what my political opinion is except that I object
to the fact that we can have people with billions of dollars,
yachts, fleets of cars, and conspicuous consumption while others
are homeless. Did I say anything about what kind of government we
need?

--
formerly known as PT Kitty > ^..^

http://www.pbase.com/ptkitty/galleries

 

[nzmacro]

I'm not even going to read all the comments here Alfred. Just want to say, if thats how you feel then you stick by your guns. Your ethics may be different to some but you are certainly entilted to them. Different strokes for different folks. I tend to agree with you myself and its not something I could do either but it is life unfortunatly. I'll stick to flowers and bugs and nature macro.

All the best Alfred ;-)

Danny.--Macro, what a world.............................. http://www.macrophotos.com