5D owners - miss the pop-up flash??

[Lee Jay]

This is copied from a previous post of mine on the subject:

...

Before those that don't like it start complaining, realize that I have 2 580EXs and a 550EX, lightstands, umbrellas, an off-shoe camera cord, a flash bracket (I prefer flash-flippers myself), diffusers and gels for my flashes, and I use bounce all the time when the flashes are actually on the camera.

Nevertheless, the pop-up has advantages, even over all of that.

First, the obvious - it's always with me. Nice for travel, nice when you didn't take a flash and an opportunity comes up, nice for saving weight.

Second. I rarely use flash for illuminating a dark scene. Personally I loathe the flash black-hole look, so I nearly always use flash for fill (altering scene contrast), not for brightening a dark scene (that's what the 5D and 35/1.4L are for). The 580EX has a 7 stop range, the pop-up only has a 5-stop range. But the pop-up is actually around 4 stops weaker than the 580EX. That gives 2 stops of range below 1:128 on the 580EX. There are times when even minimum power on the 580 is too much for gentle fill, especially with a nearby subject, fast aperture and high ISO. There are things that can be done, and I do use the diffuser panel and I do carry ND gels for the 580EX, but they're slow to use, especially if an opportunity comes up unexpectedly.

Finally, the pop-up is closer to the lens axis. Yes, I use a bracket and off-camera flash to get the light farther away and I know the reasons for doing that. However, there are plenty of good reasons to get the flash closer to the axis too. If there weren't, ring-flashes and powerful fashion ring lights (like the Alien Bees AB800) wouldn't be available. I've had to shoot macros through a hole before, and the 580 was totally blocked, but the pop-up did the job. It also leaves a much less obvious shadow (which is the reason for the big studio ring lights like that AB800).
...

Adam mentioned that third one as a benefit for macros. There are other benefits too.

Since I wrote the above, I've found the 580EX can go about 2-stops below the manual setting of 1:128 by using automatic mode. Weird, huh? But I haven't yet experimentally measured the pop-up yet, so that one might still apply, and it sure seems to in certain situations.

Anyway, yes, the pop-up has it's uses even for someone like me that has a lot of external lighting equipment.

For those that use the straw-man of the viewfinder to justify their irrational hatred of the pop-up flash, realize the Elan 7 is full-frame (film) with a viewfinder with very similar specs to that on the 5D, and it has a pop-up flash.

--
Lee Jay
(see profile for equipment)

 

[John Motts]

For the same reasons you do. Funny how the wannabe pros despise it.
Nuff said.

So those of us who don't like or use pop up flashes are wannabe pros? Thankyou for that really useful observation.

 

[brn68]

after all the 5d is a semi pro camera. it is used by many professionals, and even more by semi-pro's like i am. i am not sure if the flash was omitted to give the FF-pentaprism more room, since all analog slr's were FF and the semi-pros all had a flash.

the question was who missed the pop up and my answer was i do. before the 5d i had a 10d and as the 5d today, it earned part of my living. i also used it in my private life, but don't you think it is a little awkward to take an slr with quality glass and speedlite 550 EX on a walk through the city or a trip to the countryside? i loved the option to have a flash with me, even though i mostly shoot available light and despite of it's limited power. if you know how to use it it can be a lot of fun. even bouncing is easy if you are in a not too big room.

it seems to me that many semi-pros don't want to bite the bullet and buy a pro cam. their mortgages leave little room for expensive toys, so they look down on everything that looks less pro then the gem in their hands (btw - when i read these forums it seems to me that most cameras are used for daily sensor cleaning and shooting resolution charts). that's what makes me smile.

to me, the main reason for buying the 5d was i needed FF for shooting construction sites, where i need wide angle with no crop and excellent low light performance. the 12.8mpx also come handy when you sell cropped images for full page magazine print. the 5d is relatively lightweight and a perfect successor to the 10d, which after 70k actuations i still use now an then. why didn't i choose the 1d MkII when i bought the 5d when the price difference was only 500eu? it's unnecessarily bulky and had a crop sensor.

today i use the 5d with the 580 EXII, sometimes with the 550 EX as a fill. it was fun shooting the new CEO of http://www.asfinag.at with st-e2 and the two flashes lightening up his office.

i sometimes take the 5d for a walk, and instead of carrying the bulky flash around, i take the 50 f1.4 or some other prime. that's when i miss the pop-up flash.

and again: i am a semi-pro and guess what: i don't even wanna be a full-pro, because i love my other job as well as i love photography. i'd be very unhappy if i had to make all my living as a photog.

 

[CaptureIT]

D30> D60> 20D> 5D

I really miss the pop-up. I rarely have my 550ex with me (usually traveling light). The pop-up was great for fill-in and focus assist. It was a downer for me but after much thought I bit the bullet......and I'm glad.

Just gotta get used to taking my 550ex with me....even using the ST-E2 for focus assist in dark situations sometimes.

Regards

 

[steveg]

Not really, I always have my 580EX II with me.

--
http://www.pbase.com/sing4u

 

[Vernon D Rainwater]

I have read only a few replies. None of the ones I read even mention the red eye sometimes caused by the built in flash. Yes, I know it can be removed but it is no less of a problem.

Personally, I like to have available a built in flash but I equally dislike having to use it especially for "people" exposures. The mentioned flower exposure of course would create no issues when using a built in flash.

Someone mentioned what the space that a built in flash normally occupies is used for (in the 5D) and it seemed very logical to me.
--
Vernon...

 

[SPO123]

I was at an indoor party today where a pop-up flash would have been nice, but I cranked up the ISO to 1200, or so, and shot without it. Yes there is some noise but the pictures are great.

 

[Michael_J]

--
People who claim to be open minded never see it my way.

 

[Lee Jay]

I have read only a few replies. None of the ones I read even mention
the red eye sometimes caused by the built in flash. Yes, I know it
can be removed but it is no less of a problem.

I did, indirectly.

Personally, I like to have available a built in flash but I equally
dislike having to use it especially for "people" exposures. The
mentioned flower exposure of course would create no issues when using
a built in flash.

It's good for fill, which doesn't usually create red-eye.

Someone mentioned what the space that a built in flash normally
occupies is used for (in the 5D) and it seemed very logical to me.

It's wrong, though. Many of the full-frame film cameras have similar viewfinder specs to the 5D, and have pop-up flashes.



--
Lee Jay
(see profile for equipment)

 

[maxz]

It really depend on how and when you use it. For wide angle or a larger lens and hood it's totally useless. But for telephoto lens it can be really hanly as fill, e.g. sunset background portrait with a 70-200. Or a indoor shot with 50 or 85/1.2 and put the flash on rear sync mode. It's just a tool that can be handy when you need it, especially for 5D which is marketed as 'portable'. An option is always better than nothing at all.
No I don't want one on my 1Ds2. When I go heavy I go all the way...
Max

Before the 5D I used to have a DSLR with a popup flash and I hated
it. In most cases the popup simply ruined the picture. Since the
camera was a Nikon I could use it to trigger an off camera SB800, but
the results were not always as expected (no matter what the D-light
buffs may say). Now I have a 5D and when I need extra light I use my
elinchromes. Popup flash is mostly rubbish, really.

Philip

 

[Michael_J]

after all the 5d is a semi pro camera. it is used by many
professionals, and even more by semi-pro's like i am. i am not sure
if the flash was omitted to give the FF-pentaprism more room, since
all analog slr's were FF and the semi-pros all had a flash.

the question was who missed the pop up and my answer was i do. before
the 5d i had a 10d and as the 5d today, it earned part of my living.
i also used it in my private life, but don't you think it is a little
awkward to take an slr with quality glass and speedlite 550 EX on a
walk through the city or a trip to the countryside?

No. If it was, I'd take a P&S.

i loved the

option to have a flash with me,

Me too, that's why I take one (or two).

even though i mostly shoot available

light and despite of it's limited power. if you know how to use it it
can be a lot of fun. even bouncing is easy if you are in a not too
big room.

Bouncing a pop-up flash? With what, a piece of paper or something? That seems too awkward for me, you mean I have to carry a DSR, quality glass AND a piece of paper? ... probably need tape too (MORE stuff to carry!) maybe even an assistant to hold the paper just so while I frame the shot. That does it! No way I'm lugging around a DSR, quality glass, a piece of paper AND an assistant just to get a poorly lit shot of a dead log.

it seems to me that many semi-pros don't want to bite the bullet and
buy a pro cam. their mortgages leave little room for expensive toys,
so they look down on everything that looks less pro then the gem in
their hands (btw - when i read these forums it seems to me that most
cameras are used for daily sensor cleaning and shooting resolution
charts). that's what makes me smile.

to me, the main reason for buying the 5d was i needed FF for shooting
construction sites, where i need wide angle with no crop and
excellent low light performance. the 12.8mpx also come handy when you
sell cropped images for full page magazine print. the 5d is
relatively lightweight and a perfect successor to the 10d, which
after 70k actuations i still use now an then. why didn't i choose the
1d MkII when i bought the 5d when the price difference was only
500eu? it's unnecessarily bulky and had a crop sensor.

Crop sensor, I understand - but, "unnecessarily bulky"?!!

today i use the 5d with the 580 EXII, sometimes with the 550 EX as a
fill. it was fun shooting the new CEO of http://www.asfinag.at with st-e2
and the two flashes lightening up his office.
i sometimes take the 5d for a walk, and instead of carrying the bulky
flash around, i take the 50 f1.4 or some other prime. that's when i
miss the pop-up flash.

You take the 5D for a walk? Does it clean it's sensor in your neighbors yard?

and again: i am a semi-pro and guess what: i don't even wanna be a
full-pro, because i love my other job as well as i love photography.
i'd be very unhappy if i had to make all my living as a photog.

Most people are unhappy when they have to make a living at something.

--
People who claim to be open minded never see it my way.

 

[Michael_J]

Just that they didn't miss it, or need it, or want it.

Even the cheapest and most terrible P&S cameras have their uses... they are called cell phones.

--
People who claim to be open minded never see it my way.

 

[Michael_J]

I have read only a few replies. None of the ones I read even mention
the red eye sometimes caused by the built in flash. Yes, I know it
can be removed but it is no less of a problem.

I did, indirectly.

Personally, I like to have available a built in flash but I equally
dislike having to use it especially for "people" exposures. The
mentioned flower exposure of course would create no issues when using
a built in flash.

It's good for fill, which doesn't usually create red-eye.

Someone mentioned what the space that a built in flash normally
occupies is used for (in the 5D) and it seemed very logical to me.

It's wrong, though. Many of the full-frame film cameras have similar
viewfinder specs to the 5D, and have pop-up flashes.

But they don't have all the electronic guts taking up space.

--
Lee Jay
(see profile for equipment)

--
People who claim to be open minded never see it my way.

 

[Lee Jay]

Just that they didn't miss it, or need it, or want it.

I miss it. I don't need it, but then I don't really need a camera. I do want the camera, and I want the pop-up. It works, and it does what it does well. Of course, like any tool, it can make a mess of the place too. You just have to know how to use it.

Many of the people that have commented have said that they've never had one, or that they didn't use it when they had it. That makes them too inexperienced in its use to have an informed opinion about the pop-up flash.

--
Lee Jay
(see profile for equipment)

 

[bogongbreeze]

I understand the sentiment, but there have been times I wish the 40D did NOT have a pop up flash. That would stop me from being lazy and using the pop up when I should be using the 580 ExII.

I've got some mediocre results when I would have got much better shots if I'd taken the ten seconds to put on the proper flash - like yesterday at a family function

I thought the popup would be okay because I was just taking a few quick snapshots. But why bother with cheap snapshots when I have the gear to get some nice pics? The extended family doesn't get together that often and my uncle only turns 80 once.

I did end up going out to the car and getting the flash and so my later shots were much improved. But I wasted some great opportunities in the meantime.

(BTW, having the popup is better than having none, sometimes...)

 

[Lee Jay]

But they don't have all the electronic guts taking up space.

1. 1, yes they do. #2, that guts isn't in the prism area. #3, digitals don't have to have a film transport taking up even more space.

--
Lee Jay
(see profile for equipment)

 

[Tizzio]

Canon better deal with that on the next version of 5D2, if it ever happened!

 

[ndlaw]

I do not miss it iat all (coming from the Canon 350D, which has a pop up flash). Even before I purchased the 5D a little over a year ago, I primarily used the Canon 580EX speedlite flash even on my Canon 350D.

http://www.betterphoto.com/gallery/gallery.asp?memberID=125176&pageID=1&rows=30&style=

 

[Michael_J]

Just that they didn't miss it, or need it, or want it.

I miss it. I don't need it, but then I don't really need a camera.
I do want the camera, and I want the pop-up. It works, and it does
what it does well. Of course, like any tool, it can make a mess of
the place too. You just have to know how to use it.

Many of the people that have commented have said that they've never
had one, or that they didn't use it when they had it. That makes
them too inexperienced in its use to have an informed opinion about
the pop-up flash.

...Professional photographers are too inexperienced and uninformed to have an opinion on what tools they need to produce the images they are trying to create?

--
Lee Jay
(see profile for equipment)

--
People who claim to be open minded never see it my way.

 

[Michael_J]

But they don't have all the electronic guts taking up space.

1. 1, yes they do. #2, that guts isn't in the prism area. #3,

digitals don't have to have a film transport taking up even more
space.

1. No they don't. They have some electronic guts.
2. There are guts in the prism area too.

3. True, they have sensor units, CPU's, circuit boards, batteries, etc., taking up all the space.

3a. How can a film transport take up even more space when there is no extra space left in a DSLR? If there was "extra" space... they'd make the body SMALLER.

--
Lee Jay
(see profile for equipment)

--
People who claim to be open minded never see it my way.