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Impartial Insults for Nikon and Canon

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NumberOne said:
Amazing... Shooting jpg's with a 5D!
Even more amazing... Post Processing these jpg's!
And you call it an impartial insult?

Regards,
Pedro
Click to expand...
Didn't really mean to knock Canon or make it personal, just being provocative to stimulate the conversation. I was only pointing out the subjective impressions of what I consider good and bad from both systems. That's all.
 
pprior said:
Totally off topic, but could you please (!) give me your workflow for
how you changed that picture. The eyes are beautiful and the color
is a thing of beauty. I want the first picture, but always end up not
getting there.

thanks for sharing

--
Jeremiah 1:5
Click to expand...
Of course Jessica Claire's demo does not explain the eyes. That is my daughters secret sauce of outlining the Iris and bringing up the levels and then sharpening.
 
As I understand it you are buying a 5D congrats! While the learning curve may throw you once you get it down you will be changing ISO and shutter/aperture without looking in no time.

I shoot most all (98%?) of my photos in M mode and the meter is a guide. Once you get used to that you can basicly start metering things with your eyes. Av and Tv and P modes are fine but sometimes the camera is wrong and you need to learn to tell when thats about to happen.

Your test shot as I understand it was an example to show us that the 5D's low noise allows you to pull a file from the depths of underexposed hell back to a usable shot. I took this as a good test :) I reprocessed your photo (I hope you dont mind and if you do I will remove it) and put my spin on it.



I think i oversharpened the eyes a bit, hmm

I have been guilty of the "I will fix it in post" train of thought but only when the shot lends to impossiblities. For example very bright day and I am shooting a group of 12 people I expose for the background, a really killer sky nice clouds etc I dont want them blown out. Then fill with the flash. Well at the distance I needed to the group the 580ex flash was not cutting it even at full power, because I wanted the sky I had to stop the lens down. I tried many combinations and finally wound up metering for the sky +1 so it still was not blown out then exposing the image twice once for the people other for the sky. Combining the photos back together with a quick mask.

I shoot everything in RAW mode most of the time I have to do nothing to the image exposurewise but those few times I do, I'm glad :)

People can be harsh in this forum, bottom line is if your happy with your work then ok.

I use PSP and not Photoshop. And I process in DPP

--
-Greg

http://www.gregknapp.net/
Equipment in Profile

Geek:
There are 10 types of people in this world.
Those who understand binary and those that dont.
 
Greg,

Thanks for the welcome and I hope others will have similar helpful comments like yours. I don't mind your take on the picture at all. If I were going for something more reasonable in PP I might have done it like this which is not unlike your take on it:



As compared with the extreme processing below:


Greg Knapp said:
As I understand it you are buying a 5D congrats! While the learning
curve may throw you once you get it down you will be changing ISO and
shutter/aperture without looking in no time.

I shoot most all (98%?) of my photos in M mode and the meter is a
guide. Once you get used to that you can basicly start metering
things with your eyes. Av and Tv and P modes are fine but sometimes
the camera is wrong and you need to learn to tell when thats about to
happen.

Your test shot as I understand it was an example to show us that the
5D's low noise allows you to pull a file from the depths of
underexposed hell back to a usable shot. I took this as a good test
:) I reprocessed your photo (I hope you dont mind and if you do I
will remove it) and put my spin on it.



I think i oversharpened the eyes a bit, hmm

I have been guilty of the "I will fix it in post" train of thought
but only when the shot lends to impossiblities. For example very
bright day and I am shooting a group of 12 people I expose for the
background, a really killer sky nice clouds etc I dont want them
blown out. Then fill with the flash. Well at the distance I needed to
the group the 580ex flash was not cutting it even at full power,
because I wanted the sky I had to stop the lens down. I tried many
combinations and finally wound up metering for the sky +1 so it still
was not blown out then exposing the image twice once for the people
other for the sky. Combining the photos back together with a quick
mask.

I shoot everything in RAW mode most of the time I have to do nothing
to the image exposurewise but those few times I do, I'm glad :)

People can be harsh in this forum, bottom line is if your happy with
your work then ok.

I use PSP and not Photoshop. And I process in DPP

--
-Greg

http://www.gregknapp.net/
Equipment in Profile

Geek:
There are 10 types of people in this world.
Those who understand binary and those that dont.
Click to expand...
 
I would have to disagree on which camera is more intuitive. Its a matter of which your used to first.

I was shooting a pop-warner football game for a friend, this was before I purchased my 5D, I was using a 350D (XT). So there I am with a 70-300 5.6 lens from sigma and the XT shooting at 1600 iso to be able to get the shutter anywhere near usable.

I noticed a "soccer mom" (football mom?) with a nikon d70 or d80 cant remember which. she looked distraught and I asked her whats up she was like the kids are all blurry and she showed me a photo on the lcd. I said what ISO are you shooting at? she didnt know. I had some knowledge of Nikon and saw she was set to either 100 or auto (100 to 400) I cant rightly remember.

I told her "there is your problem right there, up your ISO" .. "how", she replied. "Well lets see, ah there is an ISO button right there", I said. She pressed it and nothing happened no menu popped up nothing.. hmm. I asked her if I could see her camera she was like sure. I pressed the ISO button and rolled the back thumb wheel. Nothing.. pressed it again rolled the front thumb wheel.. nothing. hmm

"One second", I said and whipped out my cell phone, I rang my father up and asked him since he owns a D70. Now my father is late in his years (72 friday :) ) and still pretty sharp. But he could not remember so he pulled out his manual. 30 seconds later he said oh!.. Hold the ISO button down and roll the wheel. So I did, and voila! 1600 ISO. I gave the lady back her camera and she shot a few frames and was able to stop the motion, she was happy.

I do hope she was able to figure out how to reset it to auto :P

350D hit ISO button menu pops up move up and down select ISO and set.
5D middle set of top buttons hit iso use back thumbwheel to set.

I laughed hard when it took us 5 minutes to figure out how to format the CF on the d70 :D To this day I joke to my old man about how you need to hold down 5 buttons and get your nose involved to use a Nikon :I

--
-Greg

http://www.gregknapp.net/
Equipment in Profile

Geek:
There are 10 types of people in this world.
Those who understand binary and those that dont.
 
Greg,

I can agree with some of that. I don't like having to press a button on the back and watch the LCD on the top to see the indicated changes. Seems they would be better on the same plane anyway. Plus many things are buried in menus. No the Nikon is far from perfect.
Greg Knapp said:
I would have to disagree on which camera is more intuitive. Its a
matter of which your used to first.

I was shooting a pop-warner football game for a friend, this was
before I purchased my 5D, I was using a 350D (XT). So there I am with
a 70-300 5.6 lens from sigma and the XT shooting at 1600 iso to be
able to get the shutter anywhere near usable.

I noticed a "soccer mom" (football mom?) with a nikon d70 or d80
cant remember which. she looked distraught and I asked her whats up
she was like the kids are all blurry and she showed me a photo on the
lcd. I said what ISO are you shooting at? she didnt know. I had some
knowledge of Nikon and saw she was set to either 100 or auto (100 to
400) I cant rightly remember.

I told her "there is your problem right there, up your ISO" .. "how",
she replied. "Well lets see, ah there is an ISO button right there",
I said. She pressed it and nothing happened no menu popped up
nothing.. hmm. I asked her if I could see her camera she was like
sure. I pressed the ISO button and rolled the back thumb wheel.
Nothing.. pressed it again rolled the front thumb wheel.. nothing. hmm

"One second", I said and whipped out my cell phone, I rang my father
up and asked him since he owns a D70. Now my father is late in his
years (72 friday :) ) and still pretty sharp. But he could not
remember so he pulled out his manual. 30 seconds later he said oh!..
Hold the ISO button down and roll the wheel. So I did, and voila!
1600 ISO. I gave the lady back her camera and she shot a few frames
and was able to stop the motion, she was happy.

I do hope she was able to figure out how to reset it to auto :P

350D hit ISO button menu pops up move up and down select ISO and set.
5D middle set of top buttons hit iso use back thumbwheel to set.

I laughed hard when it took us 5 minutes to figure out how to format
the CF on the d70 :D To this day I joke to my old man about how you
need to hold down 5 buttons and get your nose involved to use a Nikon
:I

--
-Greg

http://www.gregknapp.net/
Equipment in Profile

Geek:
There are 10 types of people in this world.
Those who understand binary and those that dont.
Click to expand...
 
Hi - HighTechRedneck - your post did make me smile a lot.

It would be so much simpler if all camera manufacturers had a built in "LowBrowMoron" button which enabled the user to take perfect photos under any lighting conditions and any circumstances without understanding the basics of photography at all.

The best way is to "see" a good image and exploit the camera's potential before you press the shutter button.
 
HighTechRedNeck said:
I started in film photography long ago but began using the Fuji S2
for digital back when they first hit the market. That meant buying
Nikon lenses and flashes as the Fuji was based around a Nikon mount.
As time went by I wanted something faster and more responsive than
the Fuji. Trying to preserve my investment of lenses, I tried a
Nikon D100 but returned it as totally unsatisfactory. Then when the
D70 came out, I tired one and was pleased enough to make the
purchase. I was delighted with the improved performance and did not
mind selling the lethargic Fuji S2. I also tried a Fuji S3 but it
was nothing to write home about in the performance department either.

It’s hard not to notice that a lot of people are shooting Canon
bodies but every time I tried one in a store, it just seemed like the
most confusing control layout. It felt like something designed by
Congress. When asking a salesman how to make some simple adjustment
or settings, they would fumble around and ask another clerk and
finally they would get out the manual and start reading. I just
thought “what a complicated piece of .....” Whoever designed the
control layout loved to use their right index finger or had three of
them on that hand.

On the other side of the equation my Nikon was simple and intuitive.
Want to delete a file? Just press the trash button once, a menu
comes up and asks are you sure? Then press the trash button again to
confirm. That’s it. On Canons you hit the trash button with your
left thumb and that brings up a three part menu selection that you
must now navigate with the wheel under your right thumb. Upon making
Click to expand...
and yet the first time i picked up a canon i was shooting away just like that while first time a nikon got thrown in my hand, the assignment had passed by before i got anything set! i know lots say they like nikon ergonomics, but it seems so much less intuitive and way more confusing and nasty to me. the canon was so much better setup and easier to use.

i do agree that some of the 1 series are a bit confusing though. going from 20D/40D type it was rather more different than i had imagined.
 
Hello

I'm absolutly not agree with you. the Nikon metering system is worldwide known to be terrific. I have a D2X and the metering is absolutly perfect.

You are right when you say, that Canon manages the noise better (until now, the D3 is changing this fact), but I never heard of Nikon photographer having difficulties to properly expose a frame.

If you have a tone curve that give you some pleasure, youy can continue underexposing your pictures and pushing in it back... but franckly it's more about style choice than a real need.

regards
Nicolas
 
Ben Strasser said:
Jessica Claire may be an excellent artist and a good wedding
photographer but she may also be a poor technocrat.
Click to expand...
She is also producing many pictures that many people like and that is making her a lot of money. Just by that alone, I'd rather be an excellent artist and a good photographer but a poor technocrat.

But seriously, the fact that she can maneuvered her pictures to something that her client likes implies that she is anything but a bad technocrat.

--
My price to do the job - $4000 and up.
Price of the guy with a Digital Rebel or D40x with kit lens - A couple of $100s
Uncle Bob who has a camera doing it for you as a favor - Free
Deciding to go with the guy and/or Uncle Bob and then having them screwing up
your day with no decent pictures ---------- PRICELESS!
 
I've got a similar background with a BA in Motion Picture production but I started in TV then moved to still photography.

All digital cameras back at the 'dawn of time' were basically slow and unreliable be it Kodak based Nikon or Canon bodies and Fuji wasn't even in the equation at the time....

Thing is if you started out with Nikon then you got used to that system. Same as a Windows PC user being tossed into the Mac forum or vice versa. I started with Canon but have used Nikon now and then and I can say the reverse that I find Nikon's control layout very unintuitive because I grew up with the Canon layout so depends on how you look at it. I honestly don't think one is really better than the other. Anyhow the same arguement could be made with Panaflex vs Arriflex cameras right....

Where I currently work we have a mix of Canon and Nikon cameras. Up until the release of the Nikon D3 I would have said that Canon has the superiour image quality in terms of out of the camera exposure/colour/accuracy vs what I see coming from the Nikon D2 variations. What I see from the D3 is pretty darn good and makes my life a lot easier in post production. But there has always been this Canon vs Nikon one upmanship and I personally think it is a very good thing because it keeps both if not all manufacturers on their developmental toes.

Back in the dark ages of film and before AF Nikon IMHO had the better lenses but Canon eventually caught up when it came out with the EOS system and with the EOS-1 the better body vs the F3HP system I used and traded out of. Nikon played catch up in the world of AF for a long time and part of that was because they decided to try and be too backwards compatible. I suspect mainly due to the backlash Canon faced from their FD lens users when EOS came out.

Still had Canon not done that back then they would have to eventually have done it since they couldn't have employed any of the technologies they use now....

As for the repair job in Photoshop, RAW is kind of a funky thing and out of the camera it can look pretty bad so perhaps this is what is going on with her work. From personal experience though I can say with certainty that if the image data is not there no end of post production is going to fix the problem vs getting it right from the start....same with shooting MP if you blew the shot you blew it.

Kevin
HighTechRedNeck said:
I started in film photography long ago but began using the Fuji S2
for digital back when they first hit the market. That meant buying
Nikon lenses and flashes as the Fuji was based around a Nikon mount.
As time went by I wanted something faster and more responsive than
the Fuji. Trying to preserve my investment of lenses, I tried a
Nikon D100 but returned it as totally unsatisfactory. Then when the
D70 came out, I tired one and was pleased enough to make the
purchase. I was delighted with the improved performance and did not
mind selling the lethargic Fuji S2. I also tried a Fuji S3 but it
was nothing to write home about in the performance department either.

It’s hard not to notice that a lot of people are shooting Canon
bodies but every time I tried one in a store, it just seemed like the
most confusing control layout. It felt like something designed by
Congress. When asking a salesman how to make some simple adjustment
or settings, they would fumble around and ask another clerk and
finally they would get out the manual and start reading. I just
thought “what a complicated piece of .....” Whoever designed the
control layout loved to use their right index finger or had three of
them on that hand.

On the other side of the equation my Nikon was simple and intuitive.
Want to delete a file? Just press the trash button once, a menu
comes up and asks are you sure? Then press the trash button again to
confirm. That’s it. On Canons you hit the trash button with your
left thumb and that brings up a three part menu selection that you
must now navigate with the wheel under your right thumb. Upon making
your menu selection, you must then move your right thumb to the
button located in the center of the wheel and press to confirm.
Whew! That is just one example! Ergonomically and intuitively the
Nikon just blows away the Canon bodies. Last year I bought a D200
Nikon. It had a body that felt sensual and responsive but I found it
to be very disappointing in other ways. Straight out of the box it
couldn’t focus on the side of a barn and stayed at Nikon NY for more
than a month waiting on parts to fix it and is no better now than my
D70 in regards to focusing. It never has measured up to my
expectations. I wanted more responsiveness, resolution and less
noise than the D70 but I found the D200 was a grave disappointment.

It became increasingly harder to ignore the image results coming out
of people I knew that were shooting Canon bodies. They had far less
noise and fantastic color / shadings under the most difficult
lighting circumstances. The Nikon metering was just too easily
fooled in backlit situations, etc. I could never achieve some of the
things my Canon counterparts were unless I took lots of time to meter
the scene carefully and possibly add some balanced fill flash. What
was their secret? They didn’t impress me as better photographers
with technical insight or creative vision. In fact they seemed
almost indifferent about camera settings and exposures. When I used
their Canons the images didn’t look particularly unique. Yet I
continued to see all these professionals on the internet that were
getting such spectacular results out of Canon systems with rich lush
colors. What on earth was their secret and why would they choose to
use a system that a blind man could see is a control function mess?
Click to expand...
 
Too Funny. I'll use that at work sometime ;-)
Barry Fryer said:
Hi - HighTechRedneck - your post did make me smile a lot.

It would be so much simpler if all camera manufacturers had a built
in "LowBrowMoron" button which enabled the user to take perfect
photos under any lighting conditions and any circumstances without
understanding the basics of photography at all.

The best way is to "see" a good image and exploit the camera's
potential before you press the shutter button.
Click to expand...
 
But my Nikon metering just never seems that good. I'm not saying it isn't my fault but I have never found it that reliable.
NicolasMeunier said:
Hello

I'm absolutly not agree with you. the Nikon metering system is
worldwide known to be terrific. I have a D2X and the metering is
absolutly perfect.

You are right when you say, that Canon manages the noise better
(until now, the D3 is changing this fact), but I never heard of Nikon
photographer having difficulties to properly expose a frame.

If you have a tone curve that give you some pleasure, youy can
continue underexposing your pictures and pushing in it back... but
franckly it's more about style choice than a real need.

regards
Nicolas
Click to expand...
 
Appreciate that opinion Kevin. It will help me try and be more fair in my assessment of the Canon 5D as time goes on.
Kevin Omura said:
I've got a similar background with a BA in Motion Picture production
but I started in TV then moved to still photography.

All digital cameras back at the 'dawn of time' were basically slow
and unreliable be it Kodak based Nikon or Canon bodies and Fuji
wasn't even in the equation at the time....

Thing is if you started out with Nikon then you got used to that
system. Same as a Windows PC user being tossed into the Mac forum or
vice versa. I started with Canon but have used Nikon now and then and
I can say the reverse that I find Nikon's control layout very
unintuitive because I grew up with the Canon layout so depends on how
you look at it. I honestly don't think one is really better than the
other. Anyhow the same arguement could be made with Panaflex vs
Arriflex cameras right....

Where I currently work we have a mix of Canon and Nikon cameras. Up
until the release of the Nikon D3 I would have said that Canon has
the superiour image quality in terms of out of the camera
exposure/colour/accuracy vs what I see coming from the Nikon D2
variations. What I see from the D3 is pretty darn good and makes my
life a lot easier in post production. But there has always been this
Canon vs Nikon one upmanship and I personally think it is a very good
thing because it keeps both if not all manufacturers on their
developmental toes.

Back in the dark ages of film and before AF Nikon IMHO had the better
lenses but Canon eventually caught up when it came out with the EOS
system and with the EOS-1 the better body vs the F3HP system I used
and traded out of. Nikon played catch up in the world of AF for a
long time and part of that was because they decided to try and be too
backwards compatible. I suspect mainly due to the backlash Canon
faced from their FD lens users when EOS came out.

Still had Canon not done that back then they would have to
eventually have done it since they couldn't have employed any of the
technologies they use now....

As for the repair job in Photoshop, RAW is kind of a funky thing and
out of the camera it can look pretty bad so perhaps this is what is
going on with her work. From personal experience though I can say
with certainty that if the image data is not there no end of post
production is going to fix the problem vs getting it right from the
start....same with shooting MP if you blew the shot you blew it.

Kevin
Click to expand...
 
I guess ergonomics is a personal thng.

I cannot get the hang of Nikon's menus or controls, while Canon's seems very intuitive (to me).

I cannot make any sense of a Macintosh operating system, while Windows seems very easy to navigate (to me).

I dislike the instrumentation and controls in General Motors automobiles, while those in Fords seems much more intuitive (to me).

I find Adobe Photoshop confusing, while Corel products seem easier to use (to me).

No insults to anyone here. I suspect it's a personal thing.
 
papparazzi said:
BTW i should say that the ergos of
canon are FANTASTIC, there is nothing wrong with them, i simply see
this ergos thing as nonsense, and yes i have played with nikon's from
top to bottom.
Click to expand...
Sorry they are not fantastic. The old fashioned 4 button on the LCD approach is confusing because each button does two completely different things.

On the 5D, when I change ISO, the camera turns the metering off! How stupid is that? I want to look through the viewfinder, see what ISO and exposure I have and increase ISO step by step until I get the shutter/aperture I need (like it works on a Nikon D200). That is intuitive. With the 5D I have to switch to change ISO mode back and forth all the time.

To change AF mode I have to go through the silly top LCD, on Nikon you flip one switch directly where your left thumb is anyway in a natural position supporting the lens. And the position/angle of the switch tells you the AF mode, without looking.

Flash system: I have used both systems extensively. I used the wireless controllers of both eyetems with multible flashes. The ST-E2 is just ancient compared to the SU-800. Desipte it's price it doesn't even allow you to control three groups, only two. Even these two you can't set individually. You can only adjust the ratio between them, not individually.

If you want to change the flash mode from TTL to A or to Manual, you have to walk to each flash and set them.

With Nikon's wireless flash system you can do that from the controller. You can set each of the three flash groups individually, you can change the mode individually. But the best thing, except for the D40/50, all Nikon cameras have a wireless controller built in (using the built in flash), free!

Canon is still behind updating their lenses with providing the flash system the distance info. It really does make a difference for flash photography. Nikon has been adding this to lenses much ealrier.

I think the advantages are obvious here.
Member said:
I support them as they have supported me, that is what a camera
system is all about.
Click to expand...
See I think this is the key why you are not really objetive. You support and defend "your" system.

I have owned and worked (i'm doing this as a pro) with both system and couldn't care less about brands. I'm no emotionally attached to any.
Member said:
PS: one more thing to all, i see people all the time complain about
metering/flash/autofocus in canon's...i t just makes me laugh!! Canon
is doing cameras in teh EOS system for about as long as 30 years!!
they have been wrong all this time right? They simply have another
aproach, as how photographers work
Click to expand...
No one said they made it all wrong, but looking at it from a neutral point of view, there are better alternatives in certain areas. Why is that so hard to see?

I switched from Nikon to Canon for several reasons. The image quality of the 5D is simply unmachted by any Nikon camera so far. The same is true for noise. Canon has more lens choices and in some cases has better prices. I can live with the bad ergonomics of my 5D because the end result is worth it.

But the heck I won't deny them. The 5D egonomics and features are bad and it is only fair to point that out. Low ISO noise is not the only factor getting a shot.

--
-------David-------
http://flickr.com/photos/childish/
 
I think more than anything else it is just what you got used to.

I have to be bilingual with our computers at home since I use a Mac at work and at home while my wife uses a PC. I need to be fluent in both systems since I'm the tech support guy....Windows XP is a lot more Mac like....

Guess because I grew up having to be bilingual anyway the change isn't something that throws me off though I have to admit that when I come home from trips to France I speak english with a very strong french accent which eventually fads away plus I'm thinking in french. Weird.

It is funny how many things in our lives are brand specific though like the cars you mention.

Kevin
harrygilbert said:
I guess ergonomics is a personal thng.

I cannot get the hang of Nikon's menus or controls, while Canon's
seems very intuitive (to me).

I cannot make any sense of a Macintosh operating system, while
Windows seems very easy to navigate (to me).

I dislike the instrumentation and controls in General Motors
automobiles, while those in Fords seems much more intuitive (to me).

I find Adobe Photoshop confusing, while Corel products seem easier to
use (to me).

No insults to anyone here. I suspect it's a personal thing.
Click to expand...
 
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