Arcane Canon

I'm also sure that the majority of working photographers dont give a
rip about a "mirror lockup button"
I'm sure you're correct at least as far as the 1DIII is concerned.
It has little value on a sports/action/PJ body...though I like the
way it works in the new menu.

The users that decry the "Print" button most are the FF 5D
users...and I concur. They have numerous uses for it. They had it
before on their FF 35 mms. What may gall them most is that it
appears that the print button was put there just for older Japanese
men that do not know how to use computers to print. They hardly
comprise the majority of worldwide 5D owners. And Canon makes
printers, too.

So why not make the button multi-purpose or programmable and please
everyone? That's all.
hummm...
yeah I can see that.
make it a beer and chips button with a custom function change!
that's the ticket!
I think I have wanted a mirror lock up three or four times in the ten
or so years I have been using EOS cameras.
It appears that you wanted it but because of the menu complexity you
would have preferred a simple button.
No I found the menu access to be adequate.
In fact, the few times I
have used it, it became a doofus factor to trip me up and the next
set ups.
See above...
I probably would have left the button activated too.
if I mock you, it may be well deserved.
There can be a downside to being supercilious!
I'll have to look that up.
That's the downside to not being egregiuosly erudite.
--
Joe Sesto
see my reply to DOTBORG for my super silliness.
--
Member of The Pet Rock Owners and Breeders Association
Boarding and Training at Reasonable Rates
Photons by the bag.
-----.....------

if I mock you, it may be well deserved.
 
But maybe not with the examples you did use to validate your meaning. The MLU and the Print button are two typical and irrational mistakes from a brand as skilled and brillant as Canon but they are just "the trees that hide the forest"

I think that the problem is on the very head of Canon : they miss a real strategist or an offensive strategy at least.

Up until a couple of years ago, Canon was the leader, no doubt about that. Excellent and solid rock bodies, superb lens collection and very good marketing actions to promote the "high end red striped combo"

No problem with the P&S line, nor with the entry level DSLR.

What happened next was simply called competition with Sony, Fuji and other brands charging from the P&S side and Nikon among some others attacking from the DSLR side. Little if any competition on the pro side, at least on the PJ and sport photographers (in France).

Since then, Canon reacted weirdly, at least in my opinion, without taking care of any real challenger and poorly answering at the real need of any photographer as repeated to death here on DPR and certainly by Canon's sample groups as well.

I can't understand the strategy behind that company. CMOS sensor is not Canon's trademark anymore, high ISO low noise seems now common, and the lack of a real ergonomy like Nikon's is striking when you check the D300. Imagine how I can be happy with my 5D's image quality and puzzled by his body and features..

Why Canon waited years to implement an antid-dust, Auto Iso, live view, 14 bit, lens micro adjustment and so on...Where's Canon's innovation !!

Not to mention the AF fiasco and the triple fiasco in the management of that issue. In France we call such management a lead burden, une chape de plomb. A couple of stolen excuses from country to country but not a single official word from Japan.

Canon have to face competition now, and a real one. It's now time to switch the 1D toward the 2D and hopefully a real 2.0 and not an unsteady 1.956b, and do the same with the very profitable P&S line adding quickly little CMOS to replace the noisy little CCD's used so far as noise seems to be the next battle to win even for 200$ cams.

Same with the entry level DSLR, more innovation is needed and I'm curious to see what will be the forthcoming 450D.

Not to mention the lenses. A couple of new lenses every 2 years is not enough and because Canon choosed IS inside the glass and not inside the body, the have to add it, why not, to the 24-70L among others.

Innovation, that seems the key. Canon try to capitalize on tradition, convenience of the EF lens mount, reliability, excellent image quality. OK, but now is time to real change minds in Japan, stop the mk "x" increments and go for something real new. Will the old 24*36 format be blasted ?? Don't know but I guess what Nikon did and Sony is doing, Canon will have to do it too, and relatively quickly.

If not, Canon could suffer losses, big losses and, excuse the so-so parallel, end up like French's computer industry, or american car's industry. Too expensive, out of fashion, technically outdated and not so reliable.

I wish I could speak English a little better...

Ludo from Paris
Tankers of tools, thimbels of talent
BestOf http://ludo.smugmug.com/gallery/1158249
 
if I mock you, it may be well deserved.
There can be a downside to being supercilious!
I'll have to look that up.
That's the downside to not being egregiuosly erudite.
Well like they say; "It takes one to know one!"
see my reply to DOTBORG for my super silliness.
See my bottom line...

Let me be perfectly clear. I would prefer the MLU feature on the 5D that is on the 1DIII...just for commonality in the upper tier. I would bet that it will be in the menu of the 5DII and it will be modeled after the 1DIII & 1DsIII as the price point and competitive pressures mandate it. Care to take the opposite side of that bet with $$$?

Do I think the MLU fanatics are a squeaky door? Absolutely!

Was Phil a squeaky door about the fact that if you opened the media door while the buffer was writing to the cards...you would lose data? Absolutely! Does that problem now exist on the 1DIII? Nope...

Will the 5DII have a print button? Absolutely! MLU will be just a couple of easy clicks away, though, and easily disabled even by a doofuss.

IMO arguing about either aspect is just a waste of time.

--
Joe Sesto
 
I think you are all confusing the camera business with a "zero sum game".

there are no rules that every maker must match step for step with every other maker.
Canon is not losing business for lack of a MLU button.
--
Member of The Pet Rock Owners and Breeders Association
Boarding and Training at Reasonable Rates
Photons by the bag.
-----.....------

if I mock you, it may be well deserved.
 
Just read Phil's note on MLU-mode of D300. For me, I prefere Canon
where I can program C2-mode for MLU&2s-timer vs Nikon's lack of
MLU+timer...
Mirror lockup isn't really an issue for me either, I just used it as an example because there are so many people who DO want it and Canon continually ignores their requests.

I also enjoy the custom mode for mirror lockup and I'm sure the 5D's replacement will have three custom mode dial positions (ala 40D), so that'll be welcome.

--
Whoever said 'a picture is worth a thousand words' was a cheapskate.

http://www.pbase.com/dot_borg
 
after seven years they fixed the issue with the card door.

2011 they will move the power on/off button.
2056 there will be proper MLU functionality.
2099 they will change the text C.fn III to "AF settings" etc...

Remember, these are large companies, they don't do things fast ;)
--
Anders

Some of my pictures can be seen at;
http://teamexcalibur.se/US/usindex.html

event photography and photo journalism
 
Canon needed competition, hope they are happy now. Is not the best seller anymore, neither in the P&S segment nor in the entry level DSLR. If you now imagine that both D300 and D3 could be flawlessly and ready to ship for November, I personnaly would sell my Canon stocks.

Once again, MLU is the tree that hides the forest.

Time to really be innovative and very careful with the prices as quality wise, every new customer will now be enterely legitimate to choose Nikon, no more High ISO excuses or lack of long lenses excuses..

I'm not saying everybody will abandon ship, I have 15000$ worth of Canon glass and I'm confident Canon will quickly react, but if someone asks me, I have some money and would like to invest into a DSLR, I will be tempted and consider Nikon as well. And Sony is catching up nicely...

Forget the MLU, step back and consider the whole game.

Ludo from Paris
Tankers of tools, thimbels of talent
BestOf http://ludo.smugmug.com/gallery/1158249
 
Canon needed competition, hope they are happy now. Is not the best
seller anymore, neither in the P&S segment nor in the entry level
DSLR. If you now imagine that both D300 and D3 could be flawlessly
and ready to ship for November, I personnaly would sell my Canon
stocks.

Once again, MLU is the tree that hides the forest.

Time to really be innovative and very careful with the prices as
quality wise, every new customer will now be enterely legitimate to
choose Nikon, no more High ISO excuses or lack of long lenses
excuses..

I'm not saying everybody will abandon ship, I have 15000$ worth of
Canon glass and I'm confident Canon will quickly react, but if
someone asks me, I have some money and would like to invest into a
DSLR, I will be tempted and consider Nikon as well. And Sony is
catching up nicely...

Forget the MLU, step back and consider the whole game.
Exactly.

--
Whoever said 'a picture is worth a thousand words' was a cheapskate.

http://www.pbase.com/dot_borg
 
And mlu is pretty pointless according to a study done by one of the UK professional magazines. Only has an impact when the duration of vibration is close to the shutter speed say 1/250. But most mul exposures are nearer 1s so the few milliseconds of vibration adds little to the exposure so essentially no effect on sharpness.
--
Martin Wilson
Nottingham, England
 
I think that the problem is on the very head of Canon : they miss a
real strategist or an offensive strategy at least.
Complacency starts at the top when the bottom line is strong.
What happened next was simply called competition with Sony, Fuji and
other brands charging from the P&S side and Nikon among some others
attacking from the DSLR side. Little if any competition on the pro
side, at least on the PJ and sport photographers (in France).

Since then, Canon reacted weirdly, at least in my opinion, without
taking care of any real challenger and poorly answering at the real
need of any photographer as repeated to death here on DPR and
certainly by Canon's sample groups as well.
I couldn't understand a lot of the Canon Exec's translation, but I sure didn't get any idea that they intend to take the market by the horns and bring it into the 21st century with new tech. He is a typical salaryman that we hear about that loves the 5D, but doesn't seem to know what to do with it,

It is tough to read between the lines, though...the transcript was more like a puzzle.
I can't understand the strategy behind that company. CMOS sensor is
not Canon's trademark anymore, high ISO low noise seems now common,
and the lack of a real ergonomy like Nikon's is striking when you
check the D300. Imagine how I can be happy with my 5D's image quality
and puzzled by his body and features..
You already said they have no strategist...it sounds like everything is compartmentalized,
Why Canon waited years to implement an antid-dust, Auto Iso, live
view, 14 bit, lens micro adjustment and so on...Where's Canon's
innovation !!
Because they were complacent and now they have to play catch up and don't know how to.
Not to mention the AF fiasco and the triple fiasco in the management
of that issue. In France we call such management a lead burden, une
chape de plomb. A couple of stolen excuses from country to country
but not a single official word from Japan.

Canon have to face competition now, and a real one. It's now time to
switch the 1D toward the 2D and hopefully a real 2.0 and not an
unsteady 1.956b, and do the same with the very profitable P&S line
adding quickly little CMOS to replace the noisy little CCD's used so
far as noise seems to be the next battle to win even for 200$ cams.
That will be tough they haven't recouped any of the 1DIII R&D or the 1DsIII and probably have no idea what the 1DIII fix is, yet. I read here recently that they are investing heavily in their CCD fab...as Nikon is going it alone on CMOS.
Same with the entry level DSLR, more innovation is needed and I'm
curious to see what will be the forthcoming 450D.
This might be where in the body IS gets a try. But I have no clue and really couldn't care.
Not to mention the lenses. A couple of new lenses every 2 years is
not enough and because Canon choosed IS inside the glass and not
inside the body, the have to add it, why not, to the 24-70L among
others.
Pathetic...but they are working up the L chain...slowly.
Innovation, that seems the key. Canon try to capitalize on tradition,
convenience of the EF lens mount, reliability, excellent image
quality. OK, but now is time to real change minds in Japan, stop the
mk "x" increments and go for something real new. Will the old 24*36
format be blasted ?? Don't know but I guess what Nikon did and Sony
is doing, Canon will have to do it too, and relatively quickly.
Could be a long wait...but it is a great idea. I happen to be partial to the 4 X 5 format.
If not, Canon could suffer losses, big losses and, excuse the so-so
parallel, end up like French's computer industry, or american car's
industry. Too expensive, out of fashion, technically outdated and not
so reliable.
The american car industry finally sees the error of its ways...2 of our Detroit 3 have new execs or co-execs. GM is in better shape than a year ago. It will take time...another example of complacency and not understanding what the customer wants,
I wish I could speak English a little better...
You did well...makes a lot of sense. Ever thought about applying for a job in Tokyo.

i'm going to bed...its about 5;30 am. I'm not checking my typing...too tired.
Joe Sesto
 
The fact that I dont find the "lack" of a MLU Button to be a deal
breaker?
Maybe for you it isn't. For anyone that uses the camera on a tripod it is a deal breaker.

Remember - the world doesn't just revolve around your type of photography!
 
I think you are quite eloquent! Well said.
 
Sometimes I'm completely baffled by Canon. So often people voice what
they want and Canon chooses not to hear them. A good example is the
whole mirror lockup debacle. How many times have people here (and in
other forums) stated that they would like a dedicated mirror lockup
button?
First press of the button activates the viewfinder curtain, the second flips the mirror up, and pressing again returns to normal use.

Not having a viewfinder curtain/shutter upsets me more than the way mirror lockup is implemented. (I agree it should not be buried in the CF menu)
 
Sometimes I'm completely baffled by Canon. So often people voice what
they want and Canon chooses not to hear them. A good example is the
whole mirror lockup debacle. How many times have people here (and in
other forums) stated that they would like a dedicated mirror lockup
button?
First press of the button activates the viewfinder curtain, the
second flips the mirror up, and pressing again returns to normal use.

Not having a viewfinder curtain/shutter upsets me more than the way
mirror lockup is implemented. (I agree it should not be buried in
the CF menu)
completely agree.

the funny thing is that buttons should be for things you need to change on the fly, quickly while handheld ..

MLU really doesn't fall in that category .. if I'm on a tripod, and NEED MLU, I have time to quickly flip the camera over to MLU no matter where it is in the menus. no big deal.

It's funny that people call that a dealbreaker, when it takes longer to mount your camera on the tripod and set up your tripod then it does to switch to MLU. what gives?

the viewfinder curtain or ability to close the viewfinder on the camera body annoys me far more, as you have to cover that or it messes up exposures too easily.

MLU I relegate to button envy more than usability .. and yes, I do use MLU and long exposures shots alot.
 
It doesn't revolve around yours either. I mostly use a tripod too and it's not a big deal for me. Once the menu item is visited, it's right there when you hit the menu button again. Besides, once in MLU mode, I leave it there whole day I'm in the field. Deal breaker for anyone that uses a tripod? Yea, right.

--
--Bruce
 
If there is any reason to move to Nikon it's the notion of more
openness
I agree with most of what you say, but the comparison to Nikon is just plain amusing. Remember for example the episode when Nikon decided to encrypt their raw files..?

Yes, nikon does provide firmware updates but as a company it's just as, or probably even more 'closed' than canon.

The feeling of Canon is that it's run by young coke snorting marketing execs who don't have a glue about photography and they stick print buttons in cameras because they hope it will improve their bonus. Nikon on the other seems to be run by bunch of old farts who at times don't understand the market but take pride in their cameras and try to put maximum amount of features in them.

I shoot Canon but as far as brands go i prefer Nikon.

--
Henri Karapuu
http://www.karapuu.com
 
Canon continually ignores requests like this. Another item that was
complained about for years and has only been corrected in the most
recent cameras is loosing images by opening the CF door while the
camera is writing. That one was finally fixed but the length of time
involved was extreme.
[rant]

Canon HAD this right and thanks to Phil, they have it wrong now. That is the biggest backwards step they have ever taken. I open the CF card door, STOP WRITING TO THE CARD. Don't keep writing to the darn card. I opened the &^%#& door and I am taking the $%# card out. STOP WRITING TO THE CARD!!!

Now it is busted and I can not take out the card until the $%#% buffer empties.

Thanks Phil for having your head up you but.
[ rant]
I have waited and waited for this to be included on the 5D. This is
Do you think you will wake up and one day it will just be there???
something (like remapping the print button to perform mirror lockup)
That would be nice. I wonder it there are a group of people actually using direct print?
that I strongly feel should be included in firmware updates for all
current Canon cameras. Of course this won't happen and there are
people here that will vehemently defend Canon for that bogus decision
even though it ultimately hurts them.
It is how Canon works. Always has been probably always will be.
Now I'm waiting for the 5D's replacement and I'm concerned that Canon
will give it the intentionally broken auto-ISO of the 40D. Again,
this notion of special firmware features for special money.
Did you ever think there might be technical reasons for this? Such as a noise calibration shift every time you change ISO? Perhaps, perhaps not.
If there is any reason to move to Nikon it's the notion of more
openness; firmware updates with real improvements, a lens mount that
openness? For sure you jest on that one. Firmware updates will real improvements is very real for Nikon.
is not jealously guarded, etc. The lock-down that Canon has employed
in the past just won't cut it anymore, now that they are not the
monopoly on full-frame and low noise.
They may wake up. They are still looking at the camera as a purely embedded platform where the hardware and software are intricately linked and not as an applications platform runing camera software. This is where Nikon is ahead. They have mentally separated the software from the hardware.

Steven

--
---
Summer 2007:
http://www.pbase.com/snoyes/images_summer_2007

2006 White Sands and Bisti Workshop
http://www.pbase.com/snoyes/white_sands_and_bisti

 

Keyboard shortcuts

Back
Top