Thinking of turning Pro, advice please

[smhagger]

Thanks again for your detailed info and your willingness to help,
Sean. And for the link to that pdf file. It's very useful. Appreciate
it a lot.
Wow, that's a lot of equipment All I got is a EOS 5D body and 24-70L
and 70-200LIS lenses + 580EX Speedlite. Obviously, one more body and
one more flash is the must, let alone light stands and backdrops. My
head spins from all the essentials you listed )

It sounds like you've got some great equipment to get you going. I would definitely recommend a backup body (at least a d-Rebel, just so that you have something in case your 5D goes down in the middle of a wedding). Better yet, if you can swing it financially, pick up another 5D, 30D or Mark III and plan on using it in parallel with your 5D (24-70 on the 5D, 70-200 on the other body).

I'm not sure that I would put the lightstands and backdrops on your short list of items to purchase. I would talk to your clients and find out if this is something they want, and when that time comes then pick it up (early enough to practice with it and learn the setup to be prepared for when the real day comes).

One accessory to get--if you don't have 1 already--is a Expodisc (portrait), Expodisc, or Whibal WB card and preset your White Balance (I think it's called 'custom' white balance on Canon cameras, instead of 'preset' on Nikons). This give much better results, sets the colors great, and greatly reduces post-process time.

BTW, I always shoot RAW--just in case. If everything turned out great in the original shot, then it's a simple batch conversion to jpg after embedding copyrights and a little sharpening.

No doubt, artificial lighting is crucial when you shoot indoors.

Only during the entrance and after the kiss / presentation. Having said that, I'm beginning to shoot more available light throughout and am enjoying the nice results that I'm getting without using flash. I guess you should get comfortable shooting either way. I'm still working on learning to 'see' light to get better results. Flash seems to give too 'flat' of lighting, but it does make the colors 'pop'. Natural lighting really gives a more romantic feel to the images.

I
wonder if you use any apart from your flash units. If so, what are
those? And what kind and brand of light stands do you use for your
flashes or other lights? I know there's a lot of lighting equipment
out there but it would be nice to hear about what is actually being
used and how practical it is in the settings of a wedding from
experienced photogs such as yourself.

Lighting is a topic of personal taste and a lot of debate. Hang around here and observe the different setups that some of the more experienced shooters use. There are times when I feel flash is mandatory--like during my last wedding under the harsh direct (2 PM) sunshine with no clouds and no shade whatsoever. I used fill-flash to reduce the harsh shadows, but tried not to overdo it with the flash. To make matters worse, the groom and groomsmen all wore white tuxes! After the wedding was over, I ordered up 3 B+W 3 stop ND filters to give me better control over the lighting next time and dial in the optimal settings so that I don't blow as many highlights (although it will be inevitable to some extent under these conditions). This is where the Fuji S5 Pro will really earn it's keep. It does an amazing job of allowing proper exposure without blowing highlights due to its greater DR.

Also, do you really need a
light meter in that fast paced environment? I thought it was just for
studio work.

As much as possible, I try to 'pre-meter' the scene and dial in a manual exposure mode on the body. The Sekonic gives the best results and ensures correct exposure, optimum detail, minimal-to-no noise and makes life much quicker in post process. I didn't follow my own advice during my last wedding and I'm really paying for it in post process time right now (I should have pre-metered and shot in Manual, instead I used the matrix meter (which did great) and aperture priority). I was a little distracted this past wedding as I allowed another individual to assist me whom I never worked with before. I thought he knew more about photography, but it turns out he was lucky to know which direction the lens was pointed! Never again...

Thanks again,

Serge

Glad to help.

Sean

 

[smhagger]

Richard,

Thanks for the response. Your comments kind of confirmed what I was thinking: I may be fine with the IRS, but the state I may have unfinished business with.

Question: If I 'made a sale' in Wisconsin, do I still need to collect taxes in Illinois?

Also, on my invoices I do have a comment that "sales taxes are not included and are the responsibility of the bride/client named above to pay to the state". Does this at all cover me?

Thanks,

Sean

 

[smhagger]

Good point; I ALWAYS seem to have 'a little more expenses' than I planned. ;-)

Sean

 

[Brian C. Idocks]

If you've done 3 weddings this year and you're actively booking jobs, don't you think you owe it to your clients to be a legal business? The second you start accepting jobs you should be legal. For your sake and your customer's.

I'm no lawyer or accountant, but a professional wedding photographer that takes pride in the fact that I do it legally. Yup, I collect sales tax and pay taxes on the money brought in. Folks like you are ruining the public impression of the wedding photography industry. Sure it sounds great to get some cash and shoot a wedding. What happens when something goes wrong? Do you suffer, or does the bride who put her trust in you?

If you want to be a hobbyist, do it as a hobby and for friends and such. If you want to be a pro, start acting like one and get legal. It's that simple.

Sorry if this was offensive, it just really burns me up to see this kind of thing all the time. Not just photography either, nearly every skill or craft you can think of has this going on.

 

[Brian C. Idocks]

Sorry for the first reply, it was a bit harsh. I do think you should become legal though. Insurance is a must as is collecting sales tax. I applaud you for taking the effort to call the IRS. That's a daunting task.

 

[smhagger]

Brian,

Thanks for you comments and time to post. I do want to do things the 'right' way for my sake and for my clients' sake as well-hence the reason why I'm posting my inquiry.

My dilemma is probably not unique to photography: when does a legitimate hobby become a legitimate business? That's really the underlying question. I have actually done quite a bit of searching on the internet for 'advice' on how to handle things and when.

One camp of thought, similar to your first reply, is that you should invest in the appropriate lawyers and accountants fees up front, establish all the legal stuff before you begin to contract with clients. In some of the (non-photography, but business related) sites, the point was made that many time when someone follows this path the end up outlaying thousands of dollars up front only to find that they don't have what it takes to succeed, don't have the interest, or fail quickly for some other reason. They end up losing interest and their monies--all in vain.

Another camp says to go ahead and test the water for a little while without all the legal stuff to see if you have the talent, interest, desire to handle the business side of things, etc. If, when approaching it this way, things take off and you owe some backtaxes, etc. pay them before things get out of hand and if you want to become a legit business, take the time then to establish one the right way.

As you've probably seen from my other posts above, I am a professional engineer by degree and experience. I've really enjoyed photography and shooting weddings in particular. I want to do what is 'right' for my clients, my family, and myself--and do it legally in the process.

On that note, even the IRS can't tell me (or you) when the line is crossed from being a legal 'hobby' to being a legal 'business'. If you look at the 'probing' questions in the tax instructions under a hobby, you'll see the vague nature of them. I got these same 'guidelines' when I spoke with the IRS in person. Thus, for IRS purposes, I'm content for the time being to be considered a 'hobby'. From my understanding, this allows me to be compensated for my work as long as I don't show a profit for 3 of the last 5 years. Right now, with my equipment expenditures that's not a problem. And for me, this works out great because I gain experience, build my portfolio, and pay for my equipment simultaneously. And so far (I know this can change) all my clients have been very satisfied with my work, professionalism, etc.--they've told me this numerous times.

I think this same dilemma could be faced by others as well--say quilters, for example. They enjoy quilting and make many quilts for people who begin to cover the cost of the materials for their quilts. Pretty soon they have people on a waiting list and their being paid for, not only the quilting fabric, but their time as well. Now they're in the same dilemma that I'm in: are the a hobby or a business? Like I said earlier, not even the IRS has a straight forward way to determine it--only guideline questions.

With all that said, I'm just wondering how to go about starting to collect sales tax to do things legally according to the state--business or hobby. I've already put in a call to the insurance people asking them about coverage and I've call my local city hall asking them if I'm legal to 'work' out of my home the way I am (and they confirmed that I'm just fine).

I hope this better explains where I'm coming from. By all means, I understand your (and others') frustration about non-pro's ruining things for pro's and don't want to fit into that category (hence the reason I'm actually charging a decent amount and not $200-$300 for 'professional quality' work. This way, if they don't want to pay me $1,500 for the work of a 'hobbiest' they can pay this amount (or more) and hire a 'true' pro. This way, I'm not 'undercutting' the local pro's and ruining things for them--and myself.

Peace?

Sean

 

[Richard Katris]

Having them pay the sales tax to the state...instead of you collecting it is probably not going to be viewed as sufficient by the state....not at all. You are in business...you collect...and pay the state their piece of flesh.

As to out of state sales....tricky business there....if you go into a store in state A, and buy something...and pay them...and instruct and pay them to mail it to an address in state B. I believe it is considered interstate commerce...even though the transaction took place in their business in state A. Now if they own another store in state B....they have to collect and pay state B taxes...as it is considered to have been delivered in state B. But...it is my understanding, that if they are only located in state A, and the product is "shipped" by common carrier ie: USPS, UPS, FedEx etc., they don't have to do the sales tax thing...though the client may still be liable to pay those taxes themselves....if the state is doing a "sales and use" tax, and not just a "sales" tax....as is the state of California....

California has figured out that everybody is buying stuff from NYC, and not paying taxes...and has gone to various of the major businesses in NYC, and they now have an arrangement whereby they have to collect sales tax on sales that are going to be shipped to California... I am not sure how they managed that trick since the businesses in question are NOT in the state of California...but in the cases of the major retailers....they are now collecting California state sales taxes in some cases....

As California goes...goes the country...many states are wising up to this, and it is getting harder to find out of state vendors willing to ship w/o collecting the sales tax for the states the products are being shipped to.

Technically...if you are present in state B when you take the photos....and even if you are a resident of state A, and even though they may have paid you only via mail/phone/paypal, etc. in state A, and even though you could argue that the product would be mailed via common carrier from state A to state B, state B will likely consider that you were present and "doing business" in state B when you photographed the wedding...and they may insist upon getting their money.

They could impound your equipment until you posted a bond/payment for any taxes that they might estimate might be due them...

I was at a show years ago when the state board of equalization showed up on the last day of the show...and nailed all the out of state vendors for sales tax on all their sales for the previous days.... All the vendors handing over product at the show got nailed badly. I talked my way out of it pleading "interstate commerce" due to the fact that the photos were going to be mailed from a different state...and the state representative bought it.... not sure if they should have...but I talked as if I knew what I was talking about, and just kept shooting, my back to her, while I explained to her that she was wrong, and it was interstate commerce... I quoted chapter and verse as much as I could remember from the federal statutes...and I think that is what snowed her...she eventually just walked away...... I doubt if it would fly today....

I once did a show in Reno, and they wanted me to post a $10,000 bond....in Nevada..... as an "itinerant photographer", and pay various licenses to go to the show.....Kind of hard to do when you are flying in Friday night...and out on Sunday night. didn't get done...and I sweated all weekend terrified that they would show up and impound all my gear. Never did another one in Reno.....not worth the anxiety.
--
Richard Katris aka Chanan

 

[smhagger]

I think it will just be easier to get set up with Wisconsin, Illinois and any other state that I may do business in and be done with it. I hate the feeling of 'impending doom' or a guilty conscience. One of the best things I've enjoyed over the last decade or so is living with a clean conscience as much as I can. Thus I wish to do the same here.

Thanks for sharing your experience and allowing me to learn from your pain.

Sean

 

[Brian C. Idocks]

I wasn't worried about undercutting, there will always be demand for high quality professional work, and there's a photographer for every budget. My concern is for you and your client. If everything goes fine, no issue except that the state didn't get their cut. It's when things go bad, like camera failures, lost images, perhaps accidental mistakes that things can get ugly. If you're fully legal, you may have a leg to stand on, if not, you could get buried. Nevemind the impression of our industry that has been permanently imprinted on the bride, the groom, and their families. Accidents do happen, it's the sign of a real professional how they get handled. If you don't have the legal backing, you can't handle the situation without exposing your "less-than-legal" status or going broke trying to please the family.

 

[OortCloud]

Unfortunately, all I can afford at this point is Rebel 400D (the one with 10 Mpxls) and another flash, and maybe the Canon remote flash trigger. But even then I envision bread and water replacing my regular diet for some time into the future ). And that's considering that I'm not married and have no children to feed.

Most importantly, I'm in need of training in the department of people photography. I'm starting to bug all people I know to find time to pose for me for portraits. Next thing you know I'll just have to go in to the streets and bug folks there to pose right in the street. I don't think it would be such a bad idea, after all. Of course, I realize lots of people would shy away from this type of photography, but I'll take a shot at it anyway.

Yep, I guess you got to be very careful with those fly-by-night assistants. They can tarnish your reputation. I think that's what one wedding photog thought who put an ad for an assistant for an August wedding on graigslist.com. He needed one assistant, and I offered him to be the second one ). I said I won't be in the way and won't bother anyone and you won't have to pay me. I thought three was better than 2. But, I guess, that didn't sit well with him. Maybe too many pictures to process. I wish I had a mini air balloon or something. Then I could have offered him some areal shots of the wedding ).

You know, Sean, maybe it's just me, but with my Canon 5D I can't say I have any white balance problems. I got myself a special gray card for this some time ago but then I've just kept my WB on auto all the time and I haven't seen many WB issues at all (mostly in complex lighting conditions). Same with exposure. I also prefer to shoot in RAW and I don't use any in-camera enhancements. The I quickly process everything in Lightroom or PSCS3 and I'm done. Sometimes, I bracket and use HDR.

I also like available light more than flash (if it's there). I'd rather use some light reflectors to reflect sun light. I bought a set recently on ebay (5 in 1). It's a cheap Chinese knock-off, but doesn't look so bad at all and works well..

Again, Sean, thanks for answering my questions and giving me some insight.

Serge

 

[OortCloud]

I thought he said in one of his posts that he's very upfront with his clients and they know what to expect of him, they know he's not a full pro and what risks are involved. When you and your client know all the underwater currents they can navigate together without a prob.

 

[miguel_photo]

There is a market for each one of us who decide to do weddings as a professional photographer.

As long as you have respect for the task at hand (a wedding) and have good equipment to back you up you'll be in good hands.

The other thing:

Be humble enough to know that there are a lot of photographers out there that are doing a better job than we are and try to talk to them.

Have a good contract to cover all your bases.

And always have an assistant!

once you have updated your prices; dont go back the the old ones!

Take care of your clients well!!! spoil them!!!

Good luck to you and may you retire with a lot of great weddings under your belt!!!

--
Regards,
Miguel I.
http://www.miguelirias.com
Fuji S5
D2X
D200
10.5 mm Fish Eye nikkor
14mm 2.8 sigma
20 mm 2.8 nikkor
50 mm 1.4 nikkor
85 mm 1.8 nikkor
17-55mm 2.8 nikkor
70-200mm 2.8 nikkor
200 mm 2.0 nikkor
SB-800 Flash

 

[Greg Nut]

Lots of talk about sales tax, but not all states apply sales tax to services. Ohio does not. If fact, you don't even have to tax prints as long as they're included with the services. I do pay income tax as well as sales tax on print orders.

Check out your state's laws.

 

[OortCloud]

-------------------------

 

[GAREB]

A lot of people starting a business, especially the hobbiest fail because they forget to think about the business side of running a business, things like how much competition will you be up against, is there a demand for the type of photography you will be doing, what are your post processing skills, what about marketing? How will you market yourself or do you think your skills are so great that you will not have to look for clients? You'll be surprised at the number of photographers who think they do not have to market themselves. The successful businessman/woman (photographer) looks over every single detail. You'll be surprised at the number of hobby photographers who do take pretty good photos, but fail because they never took time to look ovr the business side of running a photography business. Running a business is not easy and if you have a lot of competition, it will be even harder, so do not forget to look at the business side of running a photography business, be prepared and you will succeed. Best of luck if you start your business.
JD

 

[Greg Nut]

------------------------

 

[OortCloud]

I was looking in the sky )

 

[cartervj]

A lot of people starting a business, especially the hobbiest fail
because they forget to think about the business side of running a
business, things like how much competition will you be up against, is
there a demand for the type of photography you will be doing, what
are your post processing skills, what about marketing? How will you
market yourself or do you think your skills are so great that you
will not have to look for clients? You'll be surprised at the number
of photographers who think they do not have to market themselves.
The successful businessman/woman (photographer) looks over every
single detail. You'll be surprised at the number of hobby
photographers who do take pretty good photos, but fail because they
never took time to look ovr the business side of running a
photography business. Running a business is not easy and if you have
a lot of competition, it will be even harder, so do not forget to
look at the business side of running a photography business, be
prepared and you will succeed. Best of luck if you start your
business.
JD

I'll agree to a point where you said "be prepared and you will succeed."

In an oversaturated market, even those with a good plan still stand a good chance of NOT succeeding. Those that have been in a while and know their market and are great at business as well as great photographers may even fail.

A banker told me the 2 highest rated businesses to fail, one is the tanning bed business and the other photography.

There are NO givens in the business of photography these days.
Too much competition is not always a good thing in any business.

 

[Martin Lyons]

Hmmmm.....

I'm also thinking of turning full time pro in the future, but in neuro-surgery.

I've done a few operations and charged for them, but was thinking................
--
You toucha my stuff, I breaka you face.
See my galleries at http://www.pbase.com/martin_lyons

 

[ProPhotographer]

Hmmmm.....

I'm also thinking of turning full time pro in the future, but in
neuro-surgery.
I've done a few operations and charged for them, but was
thinking................

No market in neuro-surgery anymore Martin. Over at isurgeon.com you can book an operation for $1............

PP