SD14 test in ProfiFoto

Erik Magnuson wrote:
.....
I consistently get outstanding results from both of my SD14s,
Yes, the SD14 is capable of producing excellent results. I don't
think any review has said otherwise. I know I haven't.
....
yeah, right, like the review that said you should not print larger than 8x10.

And you wonder why new readers come here and ask if the camera can print larger than 8x10, or don't even bother and dismiss the camera?

PS: don't have time to pull up the link, I'm headed out to take SD14 photos. I recall it was one of the UK writers --
Best regards, Sandy
[email protected]
http://www.pbase.com/sandyfleischman
http://www.flickr.com/photos/sandyfleischmann
 
My take on all this is simple.

I just like to know what the truth is.

I get equally irritated when people exaggerate the benefits of the
foveon sensor or denigrate it incorrectly.

As for enthusiasm, well, it's generally a good thing: it gives
people energy and drive. The downside is they get carried away and
start believing or saying ridiculously one-eyed things.

I guess what I'm saying is I want balance and accuracy...
snip

Good morning or good day, David,

I totally respect and value your interest and commitment to "the facts". I think the nature of the photographic "press" for want of a better term has several functions as does this and similar forums. On one level, I think we all want "facts". IF (big IF) we could reach a consensus on the numbers and standards for evaluation whereby, here is a "box score" based PURELY on the numbers, and if we could agree on the standards by which the numbers are achieved, much of the debate about objectivity could be rendered moot (and possibly mute ;-) ).

i was trained in numberes for a fair part of my academic and working life - however debatable the outcomes. What I perceive here is that we have some fundamental disagreements in how the numbers are derived and what they mean. Case in point - resolution. Most tests seem to be based upon standard monochromatic test charts. When the recording medium was film, the standard was equally fair or unfair to all. When digital came on board it was all (mostly) Bayer). Again, equal footing. Now comes Foveon/Sigma which is in many ways a throwback to film, but with the added dimension of discrete photosensor sites or pixels. The chief argument for Foveon/Sigma's "advantage" is that per pixel, and therefore in aggregate, some incremental benefits are achieved in better resolving both luminance information and color information for a sensor of a given (2 dimensional) number of photosensor sites/pixels. And from there the argument continues to rage. Like two representatives of neighboring and quarreling nations I heard back in high school, the two sides keep stating their POVs, occasionally hearing a key point, but not - overall listening. And as long as Sigma users are perceived to be disadvantaged in the debate, I think the "unscientific" parts of the argument will continue with only slow and grudging progress.

IF we could mutually agree (consensus) to a set of objective, scientific standards and methodology for achieving and evluating them, much could be gained. Until then we remain in a (hopefully cordial) exchange of "informed opinons" whereby Sigma enthusiasts (IMHO) will probably feel compelled to resort to criteria which Bayer enthusiasts and/or those attempting scientific inquiry will feel compelled to dismiss at least in part.

Kindest regards,
--
Ed_S
http://www.pbase.com/ecsquires
 
I don’t read or hear anything like that enthusiasm from 5D users or
any other group, except possibly from the Leica users and in some
of the rangefinder forums.
Case in point:

http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1032&message=23633017

But I always back up my enthusiasm with pics. : )

--
--joe

http://www.josephjamesphotography.com
http://www.pbase.com/joemama/

Please feel free to criticize, make suggestions, and edit my photos. If you wish to use any of my photos for any purpose other than editing in these forums, please ask.
 
Richard,

Thanks in turn for your thoughtful post. I think you're at the
heart of it. Enthusiasm for the non-conventional to include maybe a
bit of chiding at the prevailing Bayer systems and the major brands
of camera is probably not entirely objective at times. But I think
there's some "wiggle room" between "enthusiastic" and "fanatic".

We just had an F1 race in Indy. Fans (some admittedly "fanatics"
which I guess is the root word for fan) seem to align along the
lines of auto manufacturers as much as drivers. Consider our own
personal transportation. Despite some glaring issues for me with my
current brand of personal car, I keep buying them because at the
core, while not the sexiest brand name, they work for me overall. i
spend more time driving it than complaining it or investigating the
manufacturer's claims and specs. I've been driving them for years
and - - simply put -- it works as advertised.

I want to reply specifically to David's honest thoughts in a
minute, but I think that the informal body of "happy" Sigma SD
users is more interested in craft, technique and art based on the
technology than dissecting it. Are we "over the top" sometimes? I'm
sure we seem that way. But is that "wrong"? i don't think so. Just
understandably irritating to those whose interests as expressed on
this forum are more of a scientific bent.

Regards,
--
Ed_S
http://www.pbase.com/ecsquires
Ed

The "irritated" comment in Davids post troubles me, because it is not just curiosity that drives these investigations, reports, and (although not from David) hostile comments. Similarly, the criticism that the Sigma users "get carried away," is meant to convey that the Sigma users are no longer rational, and if they were rational they woud not be enthusiastic. One of my thoughts in my post above was that I did not see anyone "enthusiastic" about their CFA cameras.

David's may yet be surprised with his final feelings about the Sigma, because I believe he is honestly trying to keep an open mind. He admits to his admiration for the performance of the SD9, which really should not surprise anyone on this forum.

The question is, ultimately, not which image he can say is measurably better, but which one he prefers. It seems clear enough to me that Mike Chaney's illustration of the increase in color resolution provided by the Foveon sensor is about 80% of what one needs to know.

Richard
--
My small gallery: http://www.pbase.com/richard44/inbox
 
What I perceive here is that we have some fundamental disagreements in
how the numbers are derived and what they mean.
...or, at least, the simplest first step, is to post equivalent images from competing systems:

http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1029&message=23368379

They types of images compared should, of course, represent a range of photographic situations: landscape, macro, portrait, studio, candid, sports, etc. After these "standard candle" images are presented, it makes sense to focus on additional imgaes that represent the strengths of the camera, and not its weaknesses, although both the strengths and weaknesses should be thoroughly discussed in any review.

Numbers are convenient, but representattive sample images are more, if not entirely, complete. One serious flaw with numbers, although I am most certainly not disounting their usefulness, is their misinterpretation by the uneducated. For example, let's say Camera A has a horizontal resolution of 2200 lpm whereas Camera B "only " has a horizontal resolution of 2100 lpm. Just how significant is this discrepency? Well, one sure way is to look at the images from both cameras. Thus, we've come full circle.

And it's not just resolution. Noise is another big issue these days. It's not merely a matter of which camera has more noise, but it's the quality of that noise -- random, patterned, blotchy, etc. Again, the images give a much more complete picture, if you'll excuse the pun, than do the numbers. Or, perhaps more accurately, much more information can be gained more easily through an image than through a table of numbers.

Another major reason to consider the image rather than the numbers is that the image presents all the different qualities into a single package for our brain to decipher. For example, we may have Camera A being better in P,Q, and R but the situation is reversed for X, Y, and Z. By examining the images, we can much more easily discern which balance of characteristics is most important to us.

It's more than just that. Let's say, in the case of lenses, that Lens A is sharper everywhere than Lens B. However, Lens B is more even across the image than Lens A. Invariably, there will be those that prefer the image from Lens B due to this quality, even though by the numbers Lens A is the better lens. Of course, we can also make numbers for the standard deviation of the sharpness across the frame, but the only thing that completely describes a thing is the thing itself.

To that end, it is the image we seek to measure, so why not provide the image as a source of measurement rather than numbers and graphs?

Of course, different reviews would provide different images, and we can all bicker about which images were more telling than which, but at least we are now all bickering about photographs rather than number graphs.

I think that's a step in the right direction.

--
--joe

http://www.josephjamesphotography.com
http://www.pbase.com/joemama/

Please feel free to criticize, make suggestions, and edit my photos. If you wish to use any of my photos for any purpose other than editing in these forums, please ask.
 
(after stating i'm in total agrrement with your post.. there's one big practical argument in favor of the Foveon .

Being practical: What are pictures for? 2 things:
1) To view them on your screen or
2) to print them.

ad 1) at native filsesize fullsize the foveon images of my sd10 are crisp and sharp. This is provoking oh's and ah's by people who are not acquainted with foveon images. (this is a matter of fact supported from my experiences on online fora and galleries. even with close-ups with the cheap-kitlens).

On these fullsizers the transition from in-focus to OOF objects is natural and results in very threedimensional images (the 'infamous' verisimilitude - i call it like looking through a glassplate to the object.). This is what I see (and others too) on Foveon images more than on (downsized)images from other sensors.

When one wants to downsize an Bayerimage to a size that fits your screen the image needs processing (either by program or browser). I thought this was THE explanaton why many Bayer images don't have this natural threedimensionality (in the way Foveons have). But the test http://www.ddisoftware.com/sd14-5d/ learned me an other explanation i never fully appreciated. It proofed to me that ONLY the Foveon images have an uniform resolution. I repeat: ONLY THE FOVEON IMAGES HAVE AN UNIFORM RESOLUTION.

Regardless of whatever resolution-difference: The only sensor that has one resolution regardless of object(colors) is a FOVEON. Bayer resolution varies all over the image.

Now one can measure maximum/mimium resolution or whatever and put that into a rating and dicuss that for ages but this is one thing that will never change.

The bottomline-question is the Foveon resolution enough in practice?

For viewing on a screen it is. (even those people who say they shoot pictures to use only some minor crops should be helped by the SD14)

Next

ad 2) I print up to A4: The Foveon images print perfectly on this format and even bigger was no problem (via Lab). I have an album with pictures of my son (from birth to today) and it is filled with sharp an clear images (some crops) that amaze people. That's enough for me.

As several people stated here that they even print wwll up to A0. I will believe them especially when Laurence put the proof on the walls at many exhibitions. And i yet have to hear real profound criticism on resolutionof these prints.

This is the practice. And i beleive many people will recognise this.

All the pseudoscientific discussions here will lead to nothing new really. Even if they claim just to counter counterclaims that counter other counterclaims. These knights of the universal truth of resolution are just fighting windmills.

Only the croppers and pixelpeepers go into the territory where there might be some differences (not stating who is 'best' here ). Well let's just wave them farewell on their journey into the center of the world of resultioncharts.

What counts is what one sees, an what one likes. And i'm afraid there is no universal law or test for that.

Besides the matter of taste there are many other physical and psychological variables.

P.S.:Not to mention "colour blindness" It is a matter of fact that many many (older) men suffer from it. Yet i never hear people talk about that here (or in any other forum for that matter).

Wouldn't it be big laugh if some of the men here that discuss technology as their pass-time actually also appear to suffer from (mild) colourblindness? Even if they don't wouldn't that be a reminder not to take everything so awfully serious and just be practical. And shoot pictures in stead of holes in so-called arguments.

Let's see things from a practical
--
regards, Harry

http://album.zoom.nl/user/hybybyte (dutch)
 
What i forgot to state in so many words is that the big plus of the Foveon (even more by the SD10 than the Sd14 perhaps) is that Fullsize = about the same as "fitscreen").

No need to pan, or scroll. One can see the whole picture at optimal sharpnes at once.
regards, Harry

http://album.zoom.nl/user/hybybyte (dutch)
 
(For MY practical needs:)

....i really would have settled with a Sigma SD10MarkII featuring the same pixelcount of the SD10-sensor in the SD14-body. (Resulting in a higher frame-rate and other improvements). That would have really been enough for ME.

( Considering that it also meant a lower selling-price. Which is important to me because the upgrade from my €500 SD10-kit to a €1250 SD14 is too big a financial leap for ME. I need more improvement to give sufficient excuses (at home) for such an investment.)

When Sigma/Foveon technology is -fundamentally- unable to approach the same High ISO/LOW-Light posibilities of some of the better Bayer-sensors (which still is out to be proven) and framerates/burstspeeds I even wouldn't mind if Sigma ALSO produces a cheap model (€400) with a 10MP bayer (to go NEXT to my Sd10).

Although i doubt they will ever do this, when the price is right i wouldn't mind (and i think given the fact a fair amount of users here also bought a Nikond40 or Sony alpha to go next to their SD prove i'm not alone in this.)
--
regards, Harry

http://album.zoom.nl/user/hybybyte (dutch)
 
I've taken some time to compare several tests from ProfiFoto which you can find on the web. I've compared the figures they attribute to the camera's Sigma SD14, Nikon D200, Fuji S5Pro, Canon 30D and in a separte column the Canon 5D. As you can see in the listing the Sigma sadly is not the best of the pack, according to the ratings - or I'm reading the figures wrongly.

What strikes me as strange is that the SD14 in almost all tests comes forward as a camera which can create stunning images with very good colors, in the ProfiFoto tests the Sigma comes out as the worst of the pack. That the white balance didn't always perform as it should was something I've already read in a different test. Also, the score on sharpness in comparisment to the other camera's was new to me too. In handling I didn't see much relevant difference between the other camera's. According to ProfiFoto the Canon 5D is the best of them all scoring high figures on most of the topics.



--
===================================
Maurice Foulon
Groningen, The Netherlands.

Teacher in Human Technology
Professional artist
Counselor in psychosynthesis
===================================
 
You can find the tests here:

http://www.profifoto.de/kameratests/index.php?k=sigma_SD14
http://www.gfw.de/kameratests/index.php?k=nikon_d200
http://www.gfw.de/kameratests/index.php?k=fujifilm_s5pro
http://www.gfw.de/kameratests/index.php?k=canon_eos30d
http://www.gfw.de/kameratests/index.php?k=canon_5d

--
===================================
Maurice Foulon
Groningen, The Netherlands.

Teacher in Human Technology
Professional artist
Counselor in psychosynthesis
===================================
 
Fredrik Barth long ago posited that (paraphrase) when a group perceives
itself to be marginalized, it will tend to exclude the majority culture as the
majority culture is perceived to marginalize the "minority" group. And the
majority culture will do likewise.
Interesting. Let's assume for a moment that the group of Sigma users are also perceiving themselves as marginalized, therefore creating a sort of ghetto identity with strongly negative assumptions of the outside world i general.

Is this so?

If so (and some might not agree here), wouldn't it be interesting also to consider any possible way out of the limiting 'ghetto'. Many marginalized groups of ethnic, sexual or other kinds of nature have experienced an ability to transform the marginalization into a new and empowered identity with more self esteem and better relations with the outside world to follow.

Can we have a word of advice from Ed or doctor Barth as to how the marginalization proces could be ultimatelively handled?
 
Instead of these group psychology one might consider just the facts of the plain buck.

Consider a camerashop has a lensline-up (including 2nd-hand) of
Canon mount
Nikon mount
Sony-minolta mount
maybe a amall Pentax Samaung line-up

The first two are rather safe (big selling numbers)

Sony is known from gadgets and has compacts and other equipment (video and thus nice bonus-programs for resellers)

Penatx/samsung is more tricky (and not a lot have them though the name and productrnge of Samsung helps)

Do you think they are keen on promoting the sale of another (marginal) lensmount?

Two options:
No and NO

So they rather ignore it and pretend the camerabrand doesn't exist.

That's why Trolls and grumpy reviewers are better for Sigma than most camera-dealers.

Nothing psychological at all

regards, Harry

http://album.zoom.nl/user/hybybyte (dutch)
 
Also, the score on sharpness in comparisment to the other camera's
was new to me too.
That darn JPEG again.

Anyway, there is one important score you left out: Resolution, where the SD14 scores 90.03 (again, 4 significant digits?) while the other cameras score in the range of 60-80 -- except the Sony R1 which scores a whopping 98!

This is also the hardest number to make sense of. One, the name and the way it's reported has changed recently. The SD14 and S5 include actual resolution numbers, while the others show only the score. Two, the score seems rather aribitrary. All of the other scores are value*factor and this one is not. The S5 has much higher measurements but a lower score. For a while I thought that the the number might be based on percentage of theoretical resolution achieved, but even then the SD14 is too low and R1 too high.

--
Erik
 
Thanx Erik for pointing the missing score out. I've added the scores in the overview.

Still, it strikes me as very odd that a very acclaimed camera like the Nikon D200 which in all tests scores high on the body, handling a.s.o. here gets a low score compared to the competition. The more I read reviews and forums, the more I notice that no one agrees on anything at all - at least it seems that way. I suppose it's a signal that digital photography really still is in it's very early stage of development with a lot of company buzz around it. If I had to get an analog camera at this moment, it would not be so difficult to determine what's right for me. I'd get myself a Nikon, Canon or perhaps a Leica if I had the money and could be assured that with whatever camera I bought, fantastic photographs could be made.

I suppose in the end, whatever a test result may be, it's irrelevant. Tests usually are about the technical side of the stuff while photography in my honest opinion is about expressing yourself and your view on the world through imaging. A good camera doesn't guarantee a good photo, a good photographer does. The technics help you to do the job, no more no less.

--
===================================
Maurice Foulon
Groningen, The Netherlands.

Teacher in Human Technology
Professional artist
Counselor in psychosynthesis
===================================
 
They actually seem fairly reasonable scores to me.

I don't see what they found wrong with the colour representation on the Sigma, nor how the camera with the best resolution can have the least 'sharpness' , but otherwise they seem to match reality.

Most of the points where the Sigma has scored least are actually lens related qualities, so which lens was used for the tests probably has a large bearing on the result.

--
Thanks,
Gary.

I suspect that because the Sigma doesn't artificially sharpen the jpegs, it has scored low, but I know many people who would consider less sharpening as an advantage.
 
Joe and Harry,

You've out talked me and that's an accomplishment ;-).

I won't presume to comment point by point but overall I think you make some excellent points. IF we could come up with a consensus protocol for testing (lenses, subjects, processing, etc.,) we could at least defuse that part of the endless conversation. Of course I sometimes wonder if resolving the issues is the goal???

Very kind regards,
--
Ed_S
http://www.pbase.com/ecsquires
 
tweedle,

I'm going to be "cautious" in making extrapolations. My several grad sociology classes ultimately led to a degree in a different field and discretion is often the better part of valor.

IF (capitlized, italicized, bolded) there is a similar phenomenon for Sigma-ites, hmm, well, rules of engagement might help. So long as "anything goes" short of flagrant trolling, flaming, abuse, ad hominem, etc., the less productive dynamic could be self sustaining. Now, if moving the agenda was really more important than the vicarious thrill of the argument to most of us, well, that might benefit from having some "ground rules" beyond Phil's. Most effective group process benefits from having mutually established ground rules. I'm sure there would be rending of garments and gnashing of teeth if we tried to do that. Look at some of the exchanges on the "Defending the Indefensible" thread. Basically saying "we don't need censorship". Of course not - why shorten an argument if provocation is an end to itself? But if we want to advance knowledge rather than just rant (and like yours truly occasionally to behave badly), then some fairly loose guidelines wouldn't hurt.

Just my opinion,
--
Ed_S
http://www.pbase.com/ecsquires
 
Instead of these group psychology one might consider just the facts
of the plain buck.

Consider a camerashop has a lensline-up (including 2nd-hand) of
Canon mount
Nikon mount
Sony-minolta mount
maybe a amall Pentax Samaung line-up

The first two are rather safe (big selling numbers)
Sony is known from gadgets and has compacts and other equipment
(video and thus nice bonus-programs for resellers)
Penatx/samsung is more tricky (and not a lot have them though the
name and productrnge of Samsung helps)

Do you think they are keen on promoting the sale of another
(marginal) lensmount?

Two options:
No and NO

So they rather ignore it and pretend the camerabrand doesn't exist.

That's why Trolls and grumpy reviewers are better for Sigma than
most camera-dealers.

Nothing psychological at all

regards, Harry

http://album.zoom.nl/user/hybybyte (dutch)
Harry,

I agree that economics (whether consciously or not) probably has a great deal to do with attitudes and behaviors in the industry.

Just fyi (can't recall if Mr. Barth was a psychologist or not) the reference was in the context of sociology. I don't practice (professionally) group psychology ;-) . Come to think of it, I don't "practice" sociology - except as a group participant.

Kindest regards

--
Ed_S
http://www.pbase.com/ecsquires
 

Keyboard shortcuts

Back
Top