Best 'Bang for Buck' paper B9180?

[CSharr]

Still seriously toying with the idea of a B9180. My current HP8750 dye printer has a 99.9% diet of 13x19" Premium Plus Satin at @£28 -£30 per box of 25 sheets. Looking around at paper prices for the pigment printers my impression is that the paper costs are higher and so the definite savings I would gain with ink costs would be offset by the increased paper costs (UK by the way).

I hope to be selling some prints shortly and wonder what papers would keep costs to a minimum but still produce a very good looking but durable product?
Thanks.
--
Chris

 

[waveney]

Hi Chris

I've had the B9180 for 9 months and cannot say how much pleasure it has given me to date. I used to get all my prints done at a pro lab and use their prices as a guide to 'value' rather than the cost of media. My costs for A3 prints are about 1/3rd that of the lab for similar quality for gloss and semi-gloss only now I get to do matt media which is a huge bonus. Factor in convenience, savings on trips to the lab/postal costs and the sheer pleasure of getting exactly what I want and I'm quids in so to speak. You, having the 8750 already know this of course.

Value also comes from selling a print which is the very best you can produce, including the cost of paper. So more expensive papers are part of that 'best' formula - there's no getting round it...the heavyweight papers add another dimension that clients respond to and really appreciate. For me there is no compromise - I would hate someone to look at a print I'm trying to sell them and for them to say "Very nice but....".

AFAIK the 8750 is a heavy ink imbiber so the 9180 will come as a nice surprise - it's positively mean by comparison so as you state that offsets increased paper costs.
OK specifics, from personal use:

Omnijet satin costs me approx 70p per A3.It's more of a lustre/soft gloss but colour fidelity is good and will do 'pop' if you are trying to match dye colour though you will not match the high gloss of dye papers.(For me this is a plus - I'm fed up with in-your-face colour)
Olmec pro satin approx £1.10 per A3
Lyson pro satin.......".........."...........

Epson's Watercolor Radiant White 190gsm approx £1.00 per A3+ from 7DayShop.com is very good value for example.

Generally price equates to weight which explains the high prices to some degree tho' some of Hahnemuhl's prices defy this rule well and truly.

My current faves are Permajet Fine Art Fibre gloss approx £2.00 per A3 and Lumijet Classic Velour matt approx £1.50 per A3. Both very heavy but sumptuous quality which give prints to die for from the 9180 in colour and B&W. The Permajet paper gives B&W prints which are like darkroom prints that have come fresh the fixer - only no dry down. No better comparison could be made.

The thing I find with the 9180 is that it rewards experimentation with any media you can find to feed thro' the SMT. I've used tissue paper, blotting paper, cartridge paper, wood veneer, vinyl tile, cotton(sized), silk and plastic sheet - all with distinctive results along with traditional media and OHP film from Pictorico which I float onto perspex sheet for (house)window back illumination.
In other words, there is more than one way to get 'value' from print media.

waveney

 

[CSharr]

Brilliant post, just the kind of info I was hoping for. Some of the papers you mention are actually cheaper than the Premium Plus dye papers so my observations were misguided by looking at too many articles with the word 'Hahnemuhle' it would seem.

It's good to see you are enjoying your B9180 waveney. There are so many negative posts kicking around on the net regarding this printer, which had me swearing I would not touch it with a barge-pole a while back. Some of the stores have just run out of the printer so I'm waiting till they have them back in stock, which hopefully will mean they are latest production models from HP.
Cheers again for your post. I will print it out for future reference.
--
Chris

 

[Chris R-UK]

To add to Waveney's list:

HP Advanced Satin Matte is quite cheap but only available in the UK in 25 sheet A4 packs or A3+. I got some A4 packs for about £6 each which works out at about 24p per sheet. The colours are very accurate with the profile supplied with the printer. This is my "draft" A4 paper.

HP Advanced Gloss is quite good if you want to print on glossy papers, which I hardly ever do. It is available in more sizes than the Satin Matte.

I print some 4x6's on Epson Premium Semigloss which I buy whenever there is a 2-for-1 offer - about 6p per 4x6. Colours are not as accurate as the HP Advanced papers but good enough for 4x6's.

For competition prints I use fotospeed papers from http://www.fotospeed.com

Fotospeed's Pigment Friendly Lustre, a semi-gloss paper, costs 80p per A3 sheet. High White Smooth is an excellent matte paper at £1.20 per A3.

Fotospeed will do free printer profiles for you if you use their paper which is a bonus.
--
Chris R

 

[CSharr]

Cheers Chris, This is looking pretty positive.

I probably won't do too much on glossy media either. I'm not that fussed about doing it now even on the 8750 dye. I prefer the satin. I just saw some prints large and smaller by this guy
http://www.transientlight.co.uk/a_frame.php?nav=1&snID=100

He is a local pro photographer shooting with Velvia film. The glass framed prints I saw were on matt fine art paper using Epson k3 ink and I have to say they were awesome. The lack of distracting reflection from the matt media really added to the quality.
--
Chris

 

[Chris R-UK]

You should be able to get the same quality from the HP. Certainly fotospeed High White Smooth gives outstanding results for me.
--
Chris R

 

[waveney]

I bought mine through Cancom who are an AppleReseller I use. Coupled with the fact that I annually spend a reasonable amount of money with them and the 3 yr extended warranty(a snip at around £35) I reckon to be covered re service and breakdowns. I paid top wack for the 9180 as it had only just been released but it has come down about £75 or so from online shops. The warranty can be purchased from HP after delivery.

I don't know whether this is worth anything but I had mine set up for me by an ex HP pro printing rep who advised letting the printer 'rest' for a week before using. He said this was something they always did with large format machines so that they 'got over' any harsh treatment they had whilst in transit and seeing the state of some packages we have had I can well believe it. Mine has had zero problems and since then I have helped two other new owners who took that advice and they have had zero problems too. At the very least it helps to balance the temperature/humidity change from unheated storage warehouses.
HP UK are a challenge to ones sanity at times.

regards

waveney

 

[professorgb]

Gloss--Moab kokopelli (very soon to be discontinued--being replaced by Colorado gloss, I believe)
Cotton rag--Moab entrada (natural or bright), best for B&W, but pretty dusty

pulp-based matte--Red River polar matte (they ship to the UK and have nice, inexpensive product)
satin--Red River polar satin

All these papers are relatively inexpensive, and they cover a pretty broad range of needs. My favorite would be the polar matte, which has been favorably compared to Hahnemuhle smooth art paper. I also like the polar satin, but I'm a bit leery of any "photo" paper with a gloss surface--they tend to outgas for months, fogging glass. This is much more of a problem with pigment printers, I believe, although my experience with the 8450 (baby brother of the 8750) is that I need to let the print dry for a week before even thinking about framing it.

Last thing--if you print on glossy or satin papers, you'll want to let the photos cure for a day or two on a drying rack/table and then GENTLY wipe the surface of the photo with a soft cotton rag (I use old cotton diapers). This removes a slight residue that will make prints look dull and give them severe gloss differential. (A number of us on this forum have had the same experience with this problem--you might do a quick site search. Maybe someone has the technical explanation.) After the prints have been wiped, they look spectacular.

 

[CSharr]

Gloss--Moab kokopelli (very soon to be discontinued--being replaced
by Colorado gloss, I believe)
Cotton rag--Moab entrada (natural or bright), best for B&W, but
pretty dusty
pulp-based matte--Red River polar matte (they ship to the UK and
have nice, inexpensive product)
satin--Red River polar satin

All these papers are relatively inexpensive, and they cover a
pretty broad range of needs. My favorite would be the polar matte,
which has been favorably compared to Hahnemuhle smooth art paper.
I also like the polar satin, but I'm a bit leery of any "photo"
paper with a gloss surface--they tend to outgas for months, fogging
glass. This is much more of a problem with pigment printers, I
believe, although my experience with the 8450 (baby brother of the
8750) is that I need to let the print dry for a week before even
thinking about framing it.

Last thing--if you print on glossy or satin papers, you'll want to
let the photos cure for a day or two on a drying rack/table and
then GENTLY wipe the surface of the photo with a soft cotton rag (I
use old cotton diapers). This removes a slight residue that will
make prints look dull and give them severe gloss differential. (A
number of us on this forum have had the same experience with this
problem--you might do a quick site search. Maybe someone has the
technical explanation.) After the prints have been wiped, they
look spectacular.

Cheers for the detailed posting,

The Red River line of papers is often mentioned positively on this forum, but I thought it was a US only product. Are they distributing to UK suppliers, or is it a case of ordering direct from Red River? I get the impression that The US has a much larger choice of papers than here in the UK or are most of them available here under different brand names or is it a case of simply knowing where to look? Regarding the buffing with a soft rag for some glossy & satin papers; I have seen this mentioned quite recently with reference to Ilford Smooth Pearl I believe.
Thanks again Prof.
--
Chris

 

[professorgb]

Surf to http://www.redriverpaper.com and check it out. Here's what the website says:

"Where does Red River ship?

• Continental USA
• Alaska, Hawaii, Puerto Rico
• Canada
• United Kingdom
• Australia / New Zealand
• Conintental Europe"

Gloss--Moab kokopelli (very soon to be discontinued--being replaced
by Colorado gloss, I believe)
Cotton rag--Moab entrada (natural or bright), best for B&W, but
pretty dusty
pulp-based matte--Red River polar matte (they ship to the UK and
have nice, inexpensive product)
satin--Red River polar satin

All these papers are relatively inexpensive, and they cover a
pretty broad range of needs. My favorite would be the polar matte,
which has been favorably compared to Hahnemuhle smooth art paper.
I also like the polar satin, but I'm a bit leery of any "photo"
paper with a gloss surface--they tend to outgas for months, fogging
glass. This is much more of a problem with pigment printers, I
believe, although my experience with the 8450 (baby brother of the
8750) is that I need to let the print dry for a week before even
thinking about framing it.

Last thing--if you print on glossy or satin papers, you'll want to
let the photos cure for a day or two on a drying rack/table and
then GENTLY wipe the surface of the photo with a soft cotton rag (I
use old cotton diapers). This removes a slight residue that will
make prints look dull and give them severe gloss differential. (A
number of us on this forum have had the same experience with this
problem--you might do a quick site search. Maybe someone has the
technical explanation.) After the prints have been wiped, they
look spectacular.

Cheers for the detailed posting,
The Red River line of papers is often mentioned positively on this
forum, but I thought it was a US only product. Are they
distributing to UK suppliers, or is it a case of ordering direct
from Red River? I get the impression that The US has a much larger
choice of papers than here in the UK or are most of them available
here under different brand names or is it a case of simply knowing
where to look? Regarding the buffing with a soft rag for some
glossy & satin papers; I have seen this mentioned quite recently
with reference to Ilford Smooth Pearl I believe.
Thanks again Prof.
--
Chris

 

[CSharr]

You should be able to get the same quality from the HP. Certainly
fotospeed High White Smooth gives outstanding results for me.
--
Chris R

Cheers Chris,
I intend to check out Fotospeed and all the other papers mentioned.

I think I remember seeing the Fotospeed brand on the RK Photographic website when I was ordering some Ilford Classic.
--
Chris

 

[CSharr]

Will check it out.
--
Chris

 

[CSharr]

Thanks in part to all the positivity here regarding paper choices I have ordered the printer from
http://www.3lit.co.uk/

The B9180 seems to be new to them according to my recent searches, so hopefully it is off the latest production line direct from HP! Mind you I notice waveney had his for the last 9 months and seemed nothing but joyfull, so maybe it doesn't make much difference.

By the way Chris-uk, I checked out the Fotospeed range of papers and they have a fairly large choice.
I am now greatly looking forward to becoming a member of the 'piggy' clan!
--
Chris

 

[Chris R-UK]

Let me declare a bias - a member of my camera club works for Fotospeed so most members of the club use Fotospeed papers. Almost universally we use Pigment Friendly Lustre for semi-gloss and High White Smooth for matte prints. If you have a really exceptional print, they have a more expensive fine art paper called Platinum.
--
Chris R

 

[F1 Forever]

I visit my local Sam's Club whenever I need paper and buy Ilford Smooth Gloss which is one of Sam's regulars. It seems to look very much like Hp's Advanced Glossy paper. Ilford has an ICC profile for the paper. It is "dry" to the touch out of the printer and looks quite good. In my experience there is very little of what I guess is callee bronzing. It is glossy! So if you have any doubts about the high gloss papers, I'd stay away.

I will be trying Red River's two sided Polar Matte when it comes in this week. I'll see how it works using their profiles. The two-sided was apparently an error made by their producer cause they're selling it for $9.00 per 50 sheets - if they still have any. I thought I might use it for calendars, etc. for next year if it works out.

--
****
http://www.pbase.com/f1forever
'Believe those searching for truth. Doubt those who have found it.

 

[CSharr]

Let me declare a bias - a member of my camera club works for
Fotospeed so most members of the club use Fotospeed papers. Almost
universally we use Pigment Friendly Lustre for semi-gloss and High
White Smooth for matte prints. If you have a really exceptional
print, they have a more expensive fine art paper called Platinum.
--
Chris R

If it works it's good enough for me Chris.

I'm getting rather excited about trying all those wonderful papers. I'm thinking it might be a good idea to try the sample packs that some of the paper companies have, just to get a feel for how they all differ in their qualities etc.

I noticed after I ordered the printer last night that when I checked the 3lit site they listed the B9180 as 'Out of Stock' and today they have it listed again with an inflated price tag. So I'm thinking they must just get 1 unit a time and then replace it as soon as they make a sale. They look to be a dedicated Printer/Plotter(don't know the difference) business so I'm hoping things will go sweetly. Just ordered the HP 3yr Care Pack £92 or so,...bit pricey but after all the trouble some people have had, thought it might be wise.
Happy days.
--
Chris

 

[CSharr]

I visit my local Sam's Club whenever I need paper and buy Ilford
Smooth Gloss which is one of Sam's regulars. It seems to look very
much like Hp's Advanced Glossy paper. Ilford has an ICC profile for
the paper. It is "dry" to the touch out of the printer and looks
quite good. In my experience there is very little of what I guess
is callee bronzing. It is glossy! So if you have any doubts about
the high gloss papers, I'd stay away.

I will be trying Red River's two sided Polar Matte when it comes in
this week. I'll see how it works using their profiles. The
two-sided was apparently an error made by their producer cause
they're selling it for $9.00 per 50 sheets - if they still have
any. I thought I might use it for calendars, etc. for next year if
it works out.

--
****
http://www.pbase.com/f1forever
'Believe those searching for truth. Doubt those who have found it.

Hi ****,

Maybe the 2 sided papers if they are fairly heavy could be used for greetings cards as well ?... where you had to print on both sides?

What are the Ilford Profiles like for the B9180? I tried their profiles for Classic Pearl on my 8750 and they were way out (others reported the same)
--
Chris

 

[burtonburton]

To add to the impressive list: a matt(e) paper from Epson which is great to check your work on before you consider printing it on the real stuff. This 192 g/m2 paper feels a bit thin, but has a nice smooth surface. It is a bit blue-ish white, due to OBA's. I have done several B/W prints on it, using grays inks only, and it is quite nice.

 

[CSharr]

To add to the impressive list: a matt(e) paper from Epson which is
great to check your work on before you consider printing it on the
real stuff. This 192 g/m2 paper feels a bit thin, but has a nice
smooth surface. It is a bit blue-ish white, due to OBA's. I have
done several B/W prints on it, using grays inks only, and it is
quite nice.

Thanks,
An other one for the list. Will check it out.
--
Chris

 

[F1 Forever]

I am quite pleased with the Ilford profiles. I get good matches with my monitor and the output from the Ilford Smooth Gloss. That is the paper that I normally use so far.

However, my Red River Inkjet Matte (2-sided) arrived this afternoon and I just printed a favorite picture of mine and its gorgeous! The matte finish looks great with this paper. The profile that is recommended on the flyer that is packaged with the paper says use the HP Photo Matte profile which is wat I did.

I do, however, see the need to blow the paper off before printing. On the first one I failed to do this and found a few tiny white spots after printing. I ran my finger over the print to check to see how dry it comes out of the printer and found that it seems to be pretty much dry to the touch, although I would recommend letting it stand alone to dry for at least a while. How long I don't know. But I'm happy to just look at it for now.

As for using this paper for Christmas or other greeting cards, I suppose you could cut it and score it for folding. I'll have to try that later - after I print a few more test prints that have given me problems in the past to see how it really looks. Then, the acid test - two sided borderless prints.
--
****
http://www.pbase.com/f1forever
'Believe those searching for truth. Doubt those who have found it.