KEH sales manager attempts deception over $13. The fun of returns.

[Conrad Birdie]

You screwed up, by your own admission. Can you not afford a $15.00
lesson, or do you just want to whine about it?

The money is irrelevant. The return/warranty policy is very clear.
Returns within 14 days are unconditional, no questions asked. This
was not honored. Furthermore, the sales manager insisted that the
policy on the website clearly identified their condition on
returning wrong item orders when it most certainly did not (it did
not mention any sort of distinction in reasons for return within 14
days, because that would be contrary to it being unconditional, no
questions asked).

I screwed up and ordered the wrong item, by my own admission.

They screwed up and misrepresented their policy, then tried to
insist that they did not screw up misrepresenting their policy.
They have admitted nothing.

If you still think this is about whining over lost money, then I
can't help you.

--
Paul,

Respectfully, not trying to flame or argue, please understand that. But, if it was your error, then don't you truly feel you should pay for the shipping costs?

I understand about the return policy being no questions asked, but shipping charges I must respectfully disagree with. I don't really think they should be responsible or even have to refund when you clearly admit the error.

That is just my opinion though.
Conrad 'Bye Bye' Birdie
'Aspire to inspire before you expire'.

 

[Conrad Birdie]

Regardless of your interpretation of their stated policy -

And I think it's a very reasonable interpretation:

"Returns are allowed within 14 days of invoice date and are subject
to the following conditions:

1. NEW items must be in perfect, brand new condition and returned in

manufacturer's original undamaged box. All manufacturer's original
packing materials, accessories and original unused warranty cards
(and rebate forms if applicable) must also be included and in
perfect condition.

[...]

Upon receipt of your returned merchandise all equipment is
thoroughly inspected and tested by our technical department.

Your card credit will be credited for the price of the returned
merchandise and any taxes and original shipping after the
completion of the inspection process."

If that is what it states, then I totally understand his complaint and retract my previous post. He would be entitled to the refund.

I would still not expect the refund of the shipping because it was my error, but if that is their stated policy, he has every right to receive it.

Contrast this with Adorama's policy:

"For the first 14 days of your purchase (First 7 days for video,
audio, and digital equipment), you may return merchandise for a
full money back refund (excluding any shipping charges) or
exchange."

In other words, from KEH I'd expect to get shipping refunded, with
Adorama I would not. Different sellers, different policies.

How long would YOU expect to stay in business if you paid for your
customer's mistakes all the time?

Dunno. Ask Amazon (11 years), Sierra Trading Post (21 years),
Land's End (44 years), or any of a large number of mail/online
sellers who refund shipping one or sometimes both ways.

I think you're selling whatever integrity you might have had for
$12, and posting it for all to see.

I think it's reasonable to ask a seller to honor the terms set
forth on their site, and not lie about it.

--
Seen in a fortune cookie:
Fear is the darkroom where negatives are developed

--
Conrad 'Bye Bye' Birdie
'Aspire to inspire before you expire'.

 

[nickleback]

If that is what it states, then I totally understand his complaint
and retract my previous post. He would be entitled to the refund.

It's a direct quote from the web site. Go to http://www.keh.com , click on help, there is a section with half a dozen Q&A's on returns. The first one gives the conditions, the last one say what will be refunded.

I would still not expect the refund of the shipping because it was
my error, but if that is their stated policy, he has every right to
receive it.

Me too. It's a nice touch, and not all online retailers do this.

But I think the real complaint is the way the store employees responded to his questions of their policy vs. what he received. Which is why I suggested a chargeback. Not for the money (it'll take a while anyway), but because if they won't listen to a customer, they might just listen to their credit card issuer. It would be nice if their stated policy matched reality.

--
Seen in a fortune cookie:
Fear is the darkroom where negatives are developed

 

[David Banner]

I think they should not refund your shipping, it was your fault not theirs. And when reading their original text it does not say they'll refund your shipping.

Get over it dude.

 

[inframan]

Dunno. Ask Amazon (11 years), Sierra Trading Post (21 years),
Land's End (44 years), or any of a large number of mail/online
sellers who refund shipping one or sometimes both ways.

Amazon does not refund shipping when customer changes their mind only for defective or incorrect merchandise.

 

[paultakeda]

I think they should not refund your shipping, it was your fault not
theirs. And when reading their original text it does not say
they'll refund your shipping.

Get over it dude.

http://www.keh.com/onlinestore/faq.aspx#aCreditAccount

What part of "Your card credit will be credited for the price of the returned merchandise and any taxes and original shipping after the completion of the inspection process," did you not get, dude?

 

[paultakeda]

Amazon does not refund shipping when customer changes their mind
only for defective or incorrect merchandise.

http://www.amazon.com/gp/help/customer/display.html?nodeId=15015711

Amazon's policy:

"You may return new, unopened items sold and fulfilled by Amazon.com within 30 days of delivery for a full refund. Items should be returned in their original product packaging. We'll also pay the return shipping costs if the return is a result of our error."

Full refund. This included original taxes and shipping. Amazon will not pay return shipping unless the return is due to their error, but sometimes they'll go ahead and do so anyway. About a month ago, a friend of mine ordered the wrong printer and only realized it when it arrived. Amazon sent her an empty box with prepaid postage on it. This was a friendly gesture not covered by policy and something that only larger stores can probably afford.

But yes, Amazon gives you a full refund within 30 days on unused merchandise, and wrong orders tend to be unused merchandise.

 

[inframan]

Come on, man...
It ain't worth it.
I've been there. So have thousands of others.
Grow UP!
--
I just like making pictures.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/inframan

 

[paultakeda]

Come on, man...
It ain't worth it.
I've been there. So have thousands of others.
Grow UP!

I'm not even sure what you mean by that. Are you saying it's not worth it to expect a company to honor the policy it puts up on its website? Or if it is in error, to admit the error and correct the website?

What's not worth it, the money? I thought I made it clear that it wasn't the money, but the attempt at deception on insisting that the website policy is correct when it clear isn't. The sales rep just had to say, oops, the website is wrong, we'll fix that but you're not getting your money, and that would have been it. Instead he flat out defends the website policy as stated but adds new text in email that contradicts it.

Why is it when someone new reads this thread they immediately fixate on the money when the reason for the post was the behavior of the sales manager in handling my questions about their policy?

And if you think

 

[paultakeda]

Text got lost there. Continued:

And if you think it's not worth it for me to let others know that KEH does not plan on revising their website to accurately represent their policy because they insist it is accurate despite the fact that it is not, well, that's your own choice.

 

[David Banner]

http://www.keh.com/onlinestore/faq.aspx#aCreditAccount

What part of "Your card credit will be credited for the price of
the returned merchandise and any taxes and original shipping after
the completion of the inspection process," did you not get, dude?

I understand it perfectly. You are taking their answer out of context. You take an answer for the question " When will my credit appear on my account?" and you apply it to "What is your return policy?". What they are saying is if they are refunding your original shipping then it will be refunded with the rest blah blah.. but they're not saying every return is refunded their original shipping.

Let it go, you'll feel much better not worrying about this. You're not going to sway people away from KEH. They have a good reputation. One person like you who wants others to pay for his mistakes is not going to change that.

 

[paultakeda]

What they are saying is if they are refunding your
original shipping then it will be refunded with the rest blah
blah.. but they're not saying every return is refunded their
original shipping.

Why are you interpreting the policy when even the KEH sales manager did not bother. He just made a new sentence up. Search for this sentence: "This warranty covers return shipping only if the item is defective and not if the wrong item is purchased."

That's what the sales manager quoted to me as being on the website. It's not there, it's still not there, and his insisting it is there means KEH isn't going to update the policy to reflect reality, and that is deception.

Claiming that the text he provided in email as being verbatim from the website and therefore dismissing my questions as irrelevant is, as I wrote in my first post, the reason I posted.

You don't do that to customers. You tell them politely, "Sorry, sir, the policy is incomplete. We do not refund original shipping for wrong items. We will correct this text on our website and hope that we may be of service to you in the future."

That would have been it. That's all I would have wanted. I'd be a little peeved, but if that's their policy then fine, I know better, and at least I got them to correct their website.

Let it go, you'll feel much better not worrying about this.

I'm not worrying one bit. I don't think about it at all except when I notice a new post on this thread that, yet again, thinks it's about the money.

So for the last time: it's not about the money, it's about honest and polite customer service.

 

[KM Glassman]

I'm not worrying one bit. I don't think about it at all except when I notice a new post on this thread that, yet again, thinks it's about the money.

I've been a happy customer of KEH and it is upsetting to see you besmerch this good company's reputation on the internet over YOUR mistake and a few measly dollars. After reading your diatribe of complaints, I have come to some conclusions about you:
You are cheap.
You are a lawyer.
You are a Republican.
You need a girl friend (or boyfriend), but you can't get one because....
You are a jerk!

What do you say folks? How many did I get right? Now let's end this dreadful thread and all go to bed!

--
G. Lassman

 

[nickleback]

I have come to some conclusions about you:

I know you are referencing the OP and not me, but since I've been on his side on this...

You are cheap.

That's a matter of opinion, but I don't think most people who interact with me think that.

You are a lawyer.

Nope, but half of my neighbors are.

You are a Republican.

Nope. Unaffiliated, social liberal, fiscal conservative. But being fically conservative doesn't mean being cheap, it means not spending more than you have.

You need a girl friend (or boyfriend), but you can't get one

I'll ask my wife to see if she thinks I need a girlfriend.

because....
You are a jerk!

Again, a matter of opinion. I don't think most people think that of me, except hockey forwards who can't get by me.

--
Seen in a fortune cookie:
Fear is the darkroom where negatives are developed

 

[Dewdrop1]

I've read this entire threat and can group posters into several categories:

1. Those who think the OP was talking about money and shouldn't make a mountain out of a mole hill.

2. Those who think he misinterpreted the return policy.

3. Those who agree with him but don't think he should fall on his sword over it.

4. Those who agree with him and sympathize with his irritation.

I fall into category 4. A policy is a policy regardless of how it stacks against the vendor. If a policy states that shipping is refunded and the vendor doesn't actually do that, how can you trust that vendor to honor other terms of his policy, even accepting the return of defective merchandise.

I recently started a thread against Ridata. They have a "lifetime warranty." When my 2GB SD card split into 2 pieces along the seam between the 2 halves, I wrote to them asking for the part to be replaced. At first I was told that all problems with the SD enclosure were due to misuse by the customer. I sent them closeups of the defective card. They then told me that it would cost me $4.50 to repair it (no mention of shipping). Finally, I got tired of arguing and asked them where to send the part. I never got a response to that email and previous emails were answered within one day.

As result of this, I will never buy another Ridata product, even their CD and DVD media. Ridata is no longer a company that I can trust. So I would say that, for the OP, it's a question of trust and honesty. Can he trust this company again? If so, how should the company earn back his trust? I completely sympathize.

Just my 2 cents.

Dave W.

 

[Dewdrop1]

I meant "entire thread" not "entire threat." Sorry, I'm a poor proof reader. I always read what I meant to say and seldom read what is actually there. How do I fix that?

 

[paultakeda]

I've been a happy customer of KEH and it is upsetting to see you
besmerch this good company's reputation on the internet over YOUR
mistake and a few measly dollars. After reading your diatribe of
complaints, I have come to some conclusions about you:

I'm done explaining that it's not the money. It means you didn't read the original post thoroughly. But since it's such a lovely post, I'll go ahead and go through it. I'm feeling saucy this lovely morning and honestly, this one made me smile.

You are cheap.

I try to be frugal, but in all honesty, I think I enjoy life way too much to say that in keep a straight face. On the plus side, I get a lot of reward points from my credit card.

You are a lawyer.

I have friends who are lawyers. Does that count?

You are a Republican.

If I were I would be siding with the company and it's ability to say "the website has this text" when it clearly doesn't and to baldly continue to say that the website has that text. Seriously, that's pretty close to how the current administration conducts policy, no?

You need a girl friend (or boyfriend), but you can't get one

On the minus side, my credit card reward points get converted to Banana Republic gift cards. If I liked BR, this'd be nice. But SHE likes BR, and SHE uses the cards. Still, I'm coming out ahead on this, so I shouldn't say it's a minus.

You are a jerk!

I'm pretty sure more than enough folks have thought that about me enough that you could make a case for it. I'm also pretty sure that can be said of anybody, so there you go.

What do you say folks? How many did I get right?

Hmm. I'd say between 0 and 2, depending on your point of view. I'll give you 2.

 

[paultakeda]

So I would say that, for the OP, it's a question of trust
and honesty. Can he trust this company again? If so, how should
the company earn back his trust?

THAT is exactly the issue.

KEH can earn back my trust in the following ways.

1) A reasonable and polite response: "We are sorry, our return policy excludes original shipping for wrong item orders. The text provided to you in email is indeed our policy and our website is incorrect. We will amend our website policy to reflect this condition. Thank you."

2) A keep the customer happy response: "Hello, yes, you are correct. Our website does not specify a condition on wrong item orders. Our return policy, however, is what we provided to you in email and we are amending our website policy to reflect it. But as our website did not specify this condition at the time of your order we will waive this condition and refund you the original shipping charges. Thank you for your patience and we hope to serve your photography needs in the future."

3) A mega-happy ending: "Hi, the sales manager who handled your issue has been fired for providing you with false information. The text he sent you in email is not our policy. Our policy is as our website states: 14-Day Unconditional, No Questions Asked. Your credit card has been credited and here's a $100 gift certificate for your trouble. Also, all your orders will be shipped next day, gratis, and every Christmas we'll send you a fine selection of cheeses and wines. We love you."

The current ending, by the way, to when I pointed out to the sales manager that what he quoted is not on the website, is non-response. He's decided to ignore me. That's pretty bad customer service. At this point I'd even go for:

4) Curt response: "Our policy is to exclude original shipping on wrong order returns."

At least I'd be getting A response.

 

[moldcore]

So what is a “wrong order item”? Didn’t like it? Too expensive? Found something better somewhere else? Entered the wrong part numbers?

Maybe I missed it, but Paul doesn’t say if he replaced the item with the correct one (looks more and more like he had second thoughts), had he done so maybe they would have waved the shipping on the original.

Having been in business for more than a decade myself, dealing with customers like Paul can be very frustrating. No matter what the problem, it’s never their fault. He admits to ordering the wrong item, yet expects KEH to eat the cost of packaging and shipping it because the return policy doesn’t spell this out. Hmm, using this logic, if I go to my local Ritz Camera store and purchase a camera, take it home, then realize it’s not what I wanted, I should expect to be paid for my gas and time, meals, lodging, and so on. My point is that return policies are always open to debate and it’s really up to each individual store manager to apply them in each individual case.

In the end, the store will probably have to resale the item at a discount or loss because it had been opened and who pays for that lost profit? The size of the store should have no bearing on how we treat situations like this. Amazon may do it but I can guarantee you that they do it grudgingly. The cost of warehousing, packaging, handling, and UPS more then likely exceeded the amount he was charged then add in the cost of handling the return item (someone has to get paid to do this) all eat into the company’s bottom line.

 

[pog]

moldcore wrote:
...

Having been in business for more than a decade myself, dealing with
customers like Paul can be very frustrating. No matter what the
problem, it’s never their fault. He admits to ordering the wrong
item, yet expects KEH to eat the cost of packaging and shipping it
because the return policy doesn’t spell this out.

...

So, asking that a store honor their published policies makes someone frustrating to deal with? Yes, it's a dumb policy to refund shipping like this... but it's KEH's dumb policy. Why on earth shouldn't they honor it? What else, therefore, are they unwilling to honor? They've built a very good reputation over the years... it's amazing how some managers/reps are so quick to jeopardize it all over something I think everyone here will agree is a trivial sum.

A business should be VERY happy to have someone like Paul actually call them on these things. Many people would let it slide and just never come back for repeat business. Who's the big loser then?

Yes, there are unreasonable people plaguing businesses all the time. I'm sure you've had your share in your time, too. I just don't think Paul is one of these people... at least not with respect to this transaction.
--
pog



http://gallery.gopog.net/