I am just beginning to research the difference between these two. What I want is: one camera that with a high enough shutter speed that will allow me to take action shots, have a short delay after the flash and a decent zoom. Is there anything that is a good "happy medium" between the two types? Thanks!
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slr vs. p&s
- Thread starter Lturner6
- Start date
you're in luck as there are some good ones. I'm not up on the best models to recommned, but wanted to jump in and say that it's not so much a shutter speed issues, but rather a focus lag time or lack there of on DSLR's.
P&S cams can pull off good enough shutter speeds, but the time to focus lock and shoot is what kills many of them. DSLR's are just about as fast as you'll ever need. Very rarely if ever do I miss my kids or dogs jumping around with my Canon 20D. However on P&S I often either luck out or have to pre-focus for anticipated action.
You'll find a happy medium. Enjoy the hunt too.
-tim
Columbus, Ohio
http://www.pbase.com/pdqgp
P&S cams can pull off good enough shutter speeds, but the time to focus lock and shoot is what kills many of them. DSLR's are just about as fast as you'll ever need. Very rarely if ever do I miss my kids or dogs jumping around with my Canon 20D. However on P&S I often either luck out or have to pre-focus for anticipated action.
You'll find a happy medium. Enjoy the hunt too.
--
-tim
Columbus, Ohio
http://www.pbase.com/pdqgp
Leejay Wu
Senior Member
1- A pedant might say you're comparing apples to... swimming.
"Point and shoot" is a style of photography, not a type of camera. It would be possible for me to set some reasonable settings on my SLR, hand it off to a complete novice, and have him 'point and shoot' it without worrying about settings. A number of SLRs targeted at the mass market include scene modes to make this easier.
2- An SLR's principal characteristic is that the viewfinder is a TTL (through the lens) optical viewfinder. Specifically, that's through the same single lens used by the imaging sensor, with the particular destination for the light (viewfinder or imaging sensor) chosen by a reflex mirror.
This is in contrast to twin-lens cameras (which remain almost entirely in the film world), rangefinders (fairly scarce in digital, but there IS the Leica M8), cameras with parallax optical viewfinders, EVF cameras, and those without any viewfinder at all (relying on the back-panel LCD).
The usual differences aside from the viewfinder type include --
"Point and shoot" is a style of photography, not a type of camera. It would be possible for me to set some reasonable settings on my SLR, hand it off to a complete novice, and have him 'point and shoot' it without worrying about settings. A number of SLRs targeted at the mass market include scene modes to make this easier.
2- An SLR's principal characteristic is that the viewfinder is a TTL (through the lens) optical viewfinder. Specifically, that's through the same single lens used by the imaging sensor, with the particular destination for the light (viewfinder or imaging sensor) chosen by a reflex mirror.
This is in contrast to twin-lens cameras (which remain almost entirely in the film world), rangefinders (fairly scarce in digital, but there IS the Leica M8), cameras with parallax optical viewfinders, EVF cameras, and those without any viewfinder at all (relying on the back-panel LCD).
The usual differences aside from the viewfinder type include --
- interchangeable lenses this is not strictly required or dependent on an SLR design, but there are at present no mass-market 'EVIL' (electronic viewfinder / interchangeable lens) cameras, within ONE lens system (there may exist adapters to use lenses from other systems, but normally these will be manual focus / manual metering)
- phase-detection autofocus instead of constrast-based off the sensor; this tends to be faster and more accurate, but also is dependent on a fixed, finite set of AF sensors -- in theory, an AF system that uses contrast detection from the imaging sensor could simulate arbitrarily placed AF points, you'd just need an excellent interface or algorithm for placing them
- larger imaging sensor (there is no engineering reason why you can't have a large-sensor EVF camera, and in fact there has been one -- the Sony R1), with larger per-pixel area and greater usability at high ISO
- no video capture (for reasons of sensor design; this isn't really a direct consequence of an SLR design, as you -could- lock the mirror up), and no live preview on the main LCD for the same reason (there are exceptions wrt. live preview, notably Olympus E-330 / E-410 / E-510 and their Panasonic/Leica peers, and the Canon 1D Mk III).
midwestshutterbug
Senior Member
Your post was the second reply.
Hate it when I read through 6-7 replies , only to discover the OP got a terrific answer already and no need to bother with more.
Great Post !
--
Dave Patterson
---------------------
Midwestshutterbug.com
----------------------------------
'When the light and composition are strong, nobody
notices things like resolution or pincushion distortion'
Gary Friedman
Hate it when I read through 6-7 replies , only to discover the OP got a terrific answer already and no need to bother with more.
Great Post !
--
Dave Patterson
---------------------
Midwestshutterbug.com
----------------------------------
'When the light and composition are strong, nobody
notices things like resolution or pincushion distortion'
Gary Friedman
Personally, I think a DSLR is a bad place for beginners to start.
There are LOTS of great compact cameras that will take great pictures and enable a beginner to learn about photography first. In face, many compacts are now available that offer both automatic and manual operation.
DSLRs represent an expensive investment, (since you will want extra lenses... which is the whole point of getting a SLR), and the decision of which system to go with is best made when you know more about your photography needs and preferences.
And there is absolutely no doubt that a DSLR will have better image quality, have more flexibility, offer more creative control, and normally have better optics.
But, would you suggest someone learning to play the violin start off with a Stradivarius?
--
Marty
Panasonic FZ20, Panasonic FZ7, Olympus C7000
There are LOTS of great compact cameras that will take great pictures and enable a beginner to learn about photography first. In face, many compacts are now available that offer both automatic and manual operation.
DSLRs represent an expensive investment, (since you will want extra lenses... which is the whole point of getting a SLR), and the decision of which system to go with is best made when you know more about your photography needs and preferences.
And there is absolutely no doubt that a DSLR will have better image quality, have more flexibility, offer more creative control, and normally have better optics.
But, would you suggest someone learning to play the violin start off with a Stradivarius?
--
Marty
Panasonic FZ20, Panasonic FZ7, Olympus C7000
jaminwilson
Member
The biggest lag is in the shutter button to the time shutter action on p&s cameras. Although it is better than it used to be. A lot of times by the time it takes the picture what you wanted is gone.
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Jamin Wilson - Firehead Fotos
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Jamin Wilson - Firehead Fotos
Robert Deutsch
Forum Pro
Well, it depends on your subject. If it's a landscape, I can pretty well guarantee that it's still going to be there a second later
Dogs and children move pretty fast, so you need the shortest shutter lag you can get. Cats are much slower. People--it depends. For a posed photo, shutter lag is not a problem. For a candid, expressions are fleeting, so having very little shutter lag helps. I have four cameras: a Canon S400, A620, Fuji F31fd, and Canon 5D with several lenses. The S400, which is now several generations old, has very noticeable shutter lag, and it can be frustrating. (But, again, it's not a problem for shooting landscapes, flowers, etc.) The A620 and the F31fd are faster, and the 5D is faster still. The reviews at dpreview have information on the timings for each camera.Bob
KenEis
Senior Member
DSLRs are better learner cameras then P&S because the controls are more accessable (not buried in menu systems). A beginner can learn about photography better by using f stops, shutter speeds, ISO and white balance stuff. Most P&S "protect" the user from all those nasty details..thus you never learn anything. Shooting manually for a while is the best way for a beginner to learn photography.
If one the other hand you don't want to learn or bother with photography but rather just take a few nice photos..then do buy a P&S. I am not making a value judgement here just stating which is a better learning tool. May folks want a picture, but really are not that interested in photography. That's OK too.
--
Ken Eis
If one the other hand you don't want to learn or bother with photography but rather just take a few nice photos..then do buy a P&S. I am not making a value judgement here just stating which is a better learning tool. May folks want a picture, but really are not that interested in photography. That's OK too.
--
Ken Eis
john farrar
Veteran Member
I think that's true about mid-range DSLRs being good for learning on, but many of the entry level ones have dim viewfinders and truly dire layouts which can require far too much menu scrolling and button pushing whereas dedicated dials for shutter and then for aperture are a hundred times nicer to use. Also, remember a DSLR is a P&S when used in automatic mode or a scene mode.
There are still some enthusiast cameras around which are similar to a DSLR in operation only one heck of a lot more pleasant to use because you still have the advantages of a through the lens image in the electronic viewfinder over which numerical data and icons are superimposed in real time. In fact this is one of the reasons why I have a love/hate relationship with DSLRs; you need to check to back plate LCD AFTER you have taken the shot to discover if it has worked optimally or not. With the bridge or 'prosumer' camera you can see the effect of any changes you make before you press the shutter. (Take a look at the intro to my "Back To The Bridge Camera" gallery in the link below.). If you do decide to buy a DSLR be sure to get one which also has a LCD data panel on the top plate, it is not nearly so awkward to make quick changes to buttons and menus as having to hold the camera away from you to see the LCD on the back.
--
John.
Please visit me at:
http://www.pbase.com/johnfr/backtothebridge
http://www.pbase.com/johnfr
There are still some enthusiast cameras around which are similar to a DSLR in operation only one heck of a lot more pleasant to use because you still have the advantages of a through the lens image in the electronic viewfinder over which numerical data and icons are superimposed in real time. In fact this is one of the reasons why I have a love/hate relationship with DSLRs; you need to check to back plate LCD AFTER you have taken the shot to discover if it has worked optimally or not. With the bridge or 'prosumer' camera you can see the effect of any changes you make before you press the shutter. (Take a look at the intro to my "Back To The Bridge Camera" gallery in the link below.). If you do decide to buy a DSLR be sure to get one which also has a LCD data panel on the top plate, it is not nearly so awkward to make quick changes to buttons and menus as having to hold the camera away from you to see the LCD on the back.
--
John.
Please visit me at:
http://www.pbase.com/johnfr/backtothebridge
http://www.pbase.com/johnfr
Good question! Good discussion with some great answers...
To Tim:
97% believe the urban myth that dSLRs have fast shutters. It’s not true. They have SLOW shutters and FAST AF. Cameras with no flopping mirror, have SLOW AF and FAST shutters. When you add the AF lag to the shutter lag, cameras with mirrors win, but not by much! In the past few years, non-mirror cameras have improved a LOT…at least the best ones have. There are still a lot of really slow AF cameras out there! But a blanket statement that non-dSLRs have slow AF is not true anymore. Read the reviews.
ALL cameras can be used in a P&S mode. Point & Shoot is a lifestyle, not a type of camera! Point & Shoot simply means the photographer doesn’t care enough about getting better pix to take the camera out of Automatic Mode…it means nothing more. dSLRs have quite good Automatic Modes and most entry-level dSLR owners use it more than the other modes. Also, implying that I have 2 P&S cameras is an insult! I have never use the Automatic mode on either of them. Ever.
ALWAYS pre-focus, regardless of the camera. To not pre-focus is wrong. That’s the way DCs are intended to be used. That’s why virtually ALL cameras have a half-press detent in the shutter button.
To Lejay:
I strongly agree with you that dSLRs vs P&Ss is a mixed metaphor. But a better counter-analogy would be comparing SUVs to automobiles…or apples to fruit.
And your point about P&S being a style of photography is dead on accurate…and much mis-understood!
All other points were very good, but I’ll disagree with your characterization of phase detection AF as being fast and accurate. dSLRs have a small but persistent problem with AF accuracy. The reason is that there are two sensors involved: the ones that facilitate the AF, located up in the pentaprism roof and the primary sensor that captures the image. These must be ALIGNED relative to each other! You’d think that would be a one-time adjustment, but unfortunately for complex optical reasons, some lenses tend to focus differently. Serious photographers occasionally have to “select” lenses that focus the same in order to get consistent AF with their dSLRs. Prowl the dSLR forums and you will see a few of these discussions. Cameras with contrast AF use the same sensor for both functions; if designed properly, they don’t have an accuracy issue.
To Ken:
The issue of which is the best learner cam, is bit like the issue of whether it’s best to learn to drive a manual shift or auto shift car. There is no correct answer. It depends. You learn different things first with each approach.
To John:
Big cameras tend to have better “layouts” for the photographer, as they have space to put more buttons. The tendency to miniaturize everything results in terrible ergonomics and arcane menus.
I’m an advocate for “good” EVFs. I find having live preview, live histogram, and live over-exposure indication absolutely invaluable! I’d like a dSLR, but I want one w/o a @#$% mirror! I want an EVIL camera!!!
Except I’ll find a better name than “EVIL”… ;-)
--
Charlie Davis
Nikon 5700 & Sony R1
CATS #25
PAS Scribe @ http://www.here-ugo.com/PAS_List.htm
HomePage: http://www.1derful.info
'I brake for pixels...'
To Tim:
97% believe the urban myth that dSLRs have fast shutters. It’s not true. They have SLOW shutters and FAST AF. Cameras with no flopping mirror, have SLOW AF and FAST shutters. When you add the AF lag to the shutter lag, cameras with mirrors win, but not by much! In the past few years, non-mirror cameras have improved a LOT…at least the best ones have. There are still a lot of really slow AF cameras out there! But a blanket statement that non-dSLRs have slow AF is not true anymore. Read the reviews.
ALL cameras can be used in a P&S mode. Point & Shoot is a lifestyle, not a type of camera! Point & Shoot simply means the photographer doesn’t care enough about getting better pix to take the camera out of Automatic Mode…it means nothing more. dSLRs have quite good Automatic Modes and most entry-level dSLR owners use it more than the other modes. Also, implying that I have 2 P&S cameras is an insult! I have never use the Automatic mode on either of them. Ever.
ALWAYS pre-focus, regardless of the camera. To not pre-focus is wrong. That’s the way DCs are intended to be used. That’s why virtually ALL cameras have a half-press detent in the shutter button.
To Lejay:
I strongly agree with you that dSLRs vs P&Ss is a mixed metaphor. But a better counter-analogy would be comparing SUVs to automobiles…or apples to fruit.
And your point about P&S being a style of photography is dead on accurate…and much mis-understood!
All other points were very good, but I’ll disagree with your characterization of phase detection AF as being fast and accurate. dSLRs have a small but persistent problem with AF accuracy. The reason is that there are two sensors involved: the ones that facilitate the AF, located up in the pentaprism roof and the primary sensor that captures the image. These must be ALIGNED relative to each other! You’d think that would be a one-time adjustment, but unfortunately for complex optical reasons, some lenses tend to focus differently. Serious photographers occasionally have to “select” lenses that focus the same in order to get consistent AF with their dSLRs. Prowl the dSLR forums and you will see a few of these discussions. Cameras with contrast AF use the same sensor for both functions; if designed properly, they don’t have an accuracy issue.
To Ken:
The issue of which is the best learner cam, is bit like the issue of whether it’s best to learn to drive a manual shift or auto shift car. There is no correct answer. It depends. You learn different things first with each approach.
To John:
Big cameras tend to have better “layouts” for the photographer, as they have space to put more buttons. The tendency to miniaturize everything results in terrible ergonomics and arcane menus.
I’m an advocate for “good” EVFs. I find having live preview, live histogram, and live over-exposure indication absolutely invaluable! I’d like a dSLR, but I want one w/o a @#$% mirror! I want an EVIL camera!!!
Except I’ll find a better name than “EVIL”… ;-)
--
Charlie Davis
Nikon 5700 & Sony R1
CATS #25
PAS Scribe @ http://www.here-ugo.com/PAS_List.htm
HomePage: http://www.1derful.info
'I brake for pixels...'
Really, if you're planning on shooting action, a DSLR is the only way to go. Even when prefocusing (or manual focusing) on a P&S, it doesn't have the response of a DSLR.
I've shot action with a Nikon Coolpix 950 and Minolta Dimage 7i. Those were both pretty impressive non-SLR cameras in their day, but, for shooting action, those two cameras were jokes compared to my Nikon D70, D100 or D1H. Not only was the shutter response slow (again, we're talking in full manual--exposure and focus) on the non-SLRs, but the smaller sensor produced inferior results. The D1H's 2 MP sensor looks far better than the 7i's 5MP sensor.
I don't know what your final goal is, but if you're shooting for web only or 8x10 or less, a used D1H for less than $500 will be an outstanding choice.
I noticed some people have talked about which camera is superior for learning. A P&S teaches you how to push a button. I'm guessing you already have that skill mastered. A DSLR teaches you how to take photographs.
I learned nothing from Instamatics back in the day. It wasn't until I got a Canon AE-1 in my hands that I actually had any idea what I was doing beyond tripping a shutter.
I've shot action with a Nikon Coolpix 950 and Minolta Dimage 7i. Those were both pretty impressive non-SLR cameras in their day, but, for shooting action, those two cameras were jokes compared to my Nikon D70, D100 or D1H. Not only was the shutter response slow (again, we're talking in full manual--exposure and focus) on the non-SLRs, but the smaller sensor produced inferior results. The D1H's 2 MP sensor looks far better than the 7i's 5MP sensor.
I don't know what your final goal is, but if you're shooting for web only or 8x10 or less, a used D1H for less than $500 will be an outstanding choice.
I noticed some people have talked about which camera is superior for learning. A P&S teaches you how to push a button. I'm guessing you already have that skill mastered. A DSLR teaches you how to take photographs.
I learned nothing from Instamatics back in the day. It wasn't until I got a Canon AE-1 in my hands that I actually had any idea what I was doing beyond tripping a shutter.
David Hughes124436
Veteran Member
I'd get both; most of us have both. Some of us have even more...
Slip the P&S into your pocket and it will be with you to grab the once in a lifetime shot or a more mundane shot you'd miss whilst getting the dSLR out and taking off the lens cap and putting on the lens hood* etc. And these days P&S's are pretty good. My wife grabs shots with her one that would be difficult with an auto SLR in film days.
More to the point, I don't know how much of an eye you have for a picture but that's far more important than any of the mumbo jumbo the marketing people dump on you/us. If you can "see" a picture then you'll get it with a P&S most of the time. Although with children and animals you have to be thinking ahead a lot (same goes for children and animals with a dSLR, btw there's no easy answer to it).
And a lot of P&S cameras come with over rides like EV compensation which can teach you a lot about photography: provided you invest some time and a little cash in a book about it.
Having mastered the P&S, then move on to the dSLR but keep the P&S as you'll still find it usefull.
BTW, as has been pointed out, you can buy a dSLR and set it up as a P&S and no one will notice, least of all you but jump into the menu and controls of a dSLR and it's like jumping in at the deep end of the swimming pool to teach yourself to swim.
Far better to start simply and build on what you have learnt and a P&S, a book and a bit of free software that lets you look at the EXIF will make it easy for you.
Regards, David
Slip the P&S into your pocket and it will be with you to grab the once in a lifetime shot or a more mundane shot you'd miss whilst getting the dSLR out and taking off the lens cap and putting on the lens hood* etc. And these days P&S's are pretty good. My wife grabs shots with her one that would be difficult with an auto SLR in film days.
More to the point, I don't know how much of an eye you have for a picture but that's far more important than any of the mumbo jumbo the marketing people dump on you/us. If you can "see" a picture then you'll get it with a P&S most of the time. Although with children and animals you have to be thinking ahead a lot (same goes for children and animals with a dSLR, btw there's no easy answer to it).
And a lot of P&S cameras come with over rides like EV compensation which can teach you a lot about photography: provided you invest some time and a little cash in a book about it.
Having mastered the P&S, then move on to the dSLR but keep the P&S as you'll still find it usefull.
BTW, as has been pointed out, you can buy a dSLR and set it up as a P&S and no one will notice, least of all you but jump into the menu and controls of a dSLR and it's like jumping in at the deep end of the swimming pool to teach yourself to swim.
Far better to start simply and build on what you have learnt and a P&S, a book and a bit of free software that lets you look at the EXIF will make it easy for you.
Regards, David
- Drop and lose a lenshood and you might discover it costs more to replace than a P&S!
As a blanket statement, that's simply wrong.
You have 2 points here. 1st you conclude that large sensor cameras have higher IQ than small sensor cameras. 2nd you conclude that the early non-SLR cameras that you have experience with were slow.
Let's look at the facts and data:
Model...ShutterLag/TotalLag
950...0.1/0.8
7......0.117/0.266
D70...0.155/0.342
All these figures are available from Imaging-Resource.com. As they show, the D70 is not particularly fast. In fact, the Dimage 7 beats it soundly! Even the 1999 vintage Coolpix 950 had a faster shutter, although the 1-digit precision doesn't help. Back in the 20th century, reviewers didn't have a clue how to measure these timings...Phil didn't even bother!
However, the picture is much different today. Both dSLRs and non-dSLRs are faster today. There are non-dSLRs with shutter lag limes of 0.005 seconds. And there are dSLRs with total lags of 0.100 seconds.
I'll make a blanket statement: Cameras with electronic shutters (and no mirror) can be faster than cameras with mechanical shutters (and mirrors). Notice that I said "CAN". A manufacturer may choose to slow down any camera for marketing reasons.
--
Charlie Davis
Nikon 5700 & Sony R1
CATS #25
PAS Scribe @ http://www.here-ugo.com/PAS_List.htm
HomePage: http://www.1derful.info
'I brake for pixels...'
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