The Hype For New DSLR

[marf]

so i point to 50% of the systems.

--
regards
Martin

 

[AdrianGB]

The most important equation to consider is quality vs cost.

If cropped sensors give acceptable quality for the market, then why go to more expensive FF.

For the FF market, they are prepared to meet the higher cost.

Cropped sensor cameras now compete on cost and features (just like film cameras did)

Simple really.

Now the cropped sensor market has been formed (with specific lens) it will not go away in a hurry unless sensor costs plummet, or some other technological development renders them obsolete.

 

[eossatan]

... ok less take the glass out of the equation and focus on the camera:

(1) a FF is about 1.3 to 1.6 times bigger than a crop sensor
(2) a FF costs about 2 to 3 times more than a crop camera

(3) now here's the real question: is IQ from a FF 2 to 3 times better than a crop sensor?

Technically or microscopically speaking, the pixel density of a FF isn't that much more than a crop, so if IQ has any dependency on pixel density (and I know many will have different opinions, but just bear with my assumption for this sake), then the 'blunt' answer to (3) no!

Since we consumers don't have much control over (1) or (2), what's your opinion on (3)?

The most important equation to consider is quality vs cost.

If cropped sensors give acceptable quality for the market, then why
go to more expensive FF.

For the FF market, they are prepared to meet the higher cost.

Cropped sensor cameras now compete on cost and features (just like
film cameras did)

Simple really.

Now the cropped sensor market has been formed (with specific lens)
it will not go away in a hurry unless sensor costs plummet, or some
other technological development renders them obsolete.

 

[Rriley]

indeed
IF it where simply a matter of slugging a FF sensor in any body
then the difference in price is
$650-90=$460
so on a base camera of $500 saleable
$500+460=$960 saleable

yet what we see is not $960, its $2,800

--
Riley

not all that counts, can be counted

 

[Paul_U]

I think it is quite the contrary. hype is dead. almost everyone already got what they wanted. now it is just a function of money - you can buy anything you may want.

--
Best regards from UPVStudio Photography

 

[Paul_U]

APS against FF has 2 real implications - DOF and viewfinder. All the rest is not quite important.

If you compare D2x to 1Ds for an example - differences are obvious. no matter what Nikon can argue in its defence - 135 format ain't going anywhere. APS format also remains. And as I use D200 I will keep using it in this format (wish Sony could figure out how Canon makes its sensors to cut noise) but for a lot of applications the bigger is still the better.

And it is up to your wallet to justify the degree of bigger-better rule. For some it is 1Ds, for some it is H3D. For some - D200.

The most important equation to consider is quality vs cost.

If cropped sensors give acceptable quality for the market, then why
go to more expensive FF.

For the FF market, they are prepared to meet the higher cost.

Cropped sensor cameras now compete on cost and features (just like
film cameras did)

Simple really.

Now the cropped sensor market has been formed (with specific lens)
it will not go away in a hurry unless sensor costs plummet, or some
other technological development renders them obsolete.

--
Best regards from UPVStudio Photography

 

[rsn48]

Hype is a language of communication that exaggerates, or some times out right lie about a product, feature, or benefit. In sales training, you are taught "hype" talk. In fact some one on TV is very good at hype talk and that is Donald Trump (we won't go into whether you like "the Donald" or not, it isn't important for this illustration). On the Apprentice, when ever he introduced a company he would always say something like, this company is "one of the best" burger companies in North America, or "the best...", or the "largest"... or whatever.

Studies show that 75 % of North America is extroverted. To be an extrovert is to be influenced by what is going on "out there." To be an introvert, one is influenced by what is going on "inside." To an extrovert, the label on the product really does mean something, to the introvert how the product works is more important than the social statement it makes. "Hype" talk is almost personally offensive to introverts; they think how can people be so stupid; to extroverts its important to have the right label. Nikon was "the" label in the seventies when I entered the photographic field, except for Hasselblad and Leica.

I can remember a decade ago a young woman was trying to establish her identity as a serious photographer with me; she told me she has just bought a Hasselblad - her the extrovert using the brand to establish her identity. Me the introvert said - "great, now let's see some of your images." I have been offered summer employment with the Canadian Forces Reserves, I just finished looking a pay scales to see what I would make. I stumbled on a recruiting video that said: "The Canadian Forces attracts the best and brightest!" Heck I don't even believe that most medical schools attract the best and brightest - a pretty bold statement. But of course the hype language is geared to the young guy or gal extrovert who feels its important to be among the "best."

Hype language is part of North American culture so logically it will be applied to photography. I just grabbed the first copy of "Shutterbug" at hand; it is the December 2004 issue. And I turned to the first Canon advert in the mag on page 5. And here is what it says:

"All the features the pros require. And you really, really want." [Talking about the 20D]

And what is important to the pros according to Canon: 1) 8.2 megapixels

2) 5 frames per second 3) 9 point Wide-Area AF 4) Dig'C ll Image processor 5) Hi Speed USB 2.0 Data Transfer 6) 0.2 Second Start Up time
7) Compatible with 50+ EF & EF-S lenses.

If I were a pro, I wouldn't use Canon's software, I wouldn't transfer images using USB, I don't care about 5 frames per second - my subject matter doesn't move fast enough to warrant that benefit. I use centre focus about 99 % of the time, so a 9 point AF system isn't that big a deal. I don't need the camera to start up faster than a Porsche, but I do like the lens compatibility offered, though I'm not a fan of EF-S lenses (except very wide angle zooms). I know to some Pros, some of these features are useful. But the language is hype.

'There are over a thousand great pics just beyound my camera lens and I've yet to find one.'
Inner Discourse

 

[rsn48]

Serendipitously, I stumbled on this thread right after I posted the above on extroversion and introversion. The thread below beautifully illustrates exactly what I have been saying:

http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1018&message=23260371

To BMW boy (bimmerboi), the looks of the camera is all important; it establishes who he is.
--

'There are over a thousand great pics just beyound my camera lens and I've yet to find one.'
Inner Discourse

 

[Paul_U]

I understand but hype is important if it solely moves sales.

Now situation is not as it was back to 30D days. Working pro-s and people who care to know - do know from their own experience what is important and what is not. so itis much more difficult to drive sales by hype alone and that was the point i had saying - No Hype.

so, we look at new 1D mk3 and see 14 bit ADC. and we look at independent reviews showing cleanest ISO3200 shots I've seen so far. It is hype for people who do not know what is it form but for an owner of 500mm lens it means - UAU! I can shoot more non-blurred shots indoors now. and so on and so fourth.

but again, core point here was to discuss the ideas expressed in that Lloyd's article, not to discuss imperfections of modern world.

Serendipitously, I stumbled on this thread right after I posted the
above on extroversion and introversion. The thread below
beautifully illustrates exactly what I have been saying:

--
Best regards from UPVStudio Photography

 

[Paul_U]

Sorry, i've mixed threads in my mind.
Lloyd has nothing to do here. Sorry.
--
Best regards from UPVStudio Photography

 

[AdrianGB]

... ok less take the glass out of the equation and focus on the
camera:

(3) now here's the real question: is IQ from a FF 2 to 3 times
better than a crop sensor?

Since we consumers don't have much control over (1) or (2), what's
your opinion on (3)?

The short answer is No.

The longer answer is, that depends on who you are, and what you do.

Is FF 3 times as good as a crop sensor? To me yes, because it yields benefits for me that justify the extra cost.

Is the canon 85 f1.2 five times better than the f1.8? No, but I am still getting it because of the incremental improvement in performance.

Unfortunately in photography, paying twice as much doesn't usually mean you get twice as much back. Diminishing market utility is the phrase that springs to mind.

 

[AdrianGB]

APS against FF has 2 real implications - DOF and viewfinder. All
the rest is not quite important.

Personally I agree with you, but of course those things are not important to everyone.

Some people are very happy with their cropped sensor DOF and VF, so there is no issue for them.

Others cannot live with FF DSLR, and shoot with Medium Format.

 

[eossatan]

This is like saying:

The short answer is No.

".... I know it's not worth it..."

The longer answer is, that depends on who you are, and what you do.

Is FF 3 times as good as a crop sensor? To me yes, because it
yields benefits for me that justify the extra cost.

"...but I'll force myself to believe that it is because I've spent, or going to spend, that must money on it..."

Unfortunately in photography, paying twice as much doesn't usually
mean you get twice as much back. Diminishing market utility is the
phrase that springs to mind.

"... In the end, it is my perceptual experience that will justify everything!....."

Am I just a poor man lost in a rich man's forum?

 

[Rriley]

i would have thought DoF is a product of the lens
which leaves you with the VF
--
Riley

not all that counts, can be counted