T100 too expensive for such a quality!

[Diana2]

I'm wondering how the sony corp can be so ambitious selling the T100 for such abusive price.

All camera parts came from china and thailand and the lens set are assembled by everbody but any japanese. Filipins and most brazilians are the workers who assembly, verify and dispatch the sony cameras all around.

I used to work at compact cybeshot lens sector at Sony Minokamo EMCS here in Japan. My work was basically to take care of the assembly line. The line have 22 person, in manual function, all the refused lens are re-used again and again since the MTF tests machines can't define the Auto-Focus for the lens set iso easily.

I think expensive because most of the material are re-used. Think of re-used lens...scratches and dirty are very tolerate.

Anyway, the T100 have minors tech problems I hope, since the lens set are made of round lenses instead of the cut round that all T series has before. This shape was a way for keep the camera as slim as possible, but the lenses was very loose into the plastic molds resulting in skew, slant, out of place lenses.



THose lenses are removed from the plastic and lay around 1hour in hot etanol-dietil-eter for removing the glue. THen those lenses are cleaned, one by one, by hand, and then re-used. Scratches and dirty are present all process long.

 

[DavidH]

Very interesting post with no clear (pardon the pun) answer for the T100.

Does the poster or anyone else (Phil or Simon) know about current Quality Control on these 'pricier' products.

Surely, many production line shortcuts surface, that never reach a consumers' knowledge, for fear of derailing the marketing and sale of a product.

Would a DPreview camera review reveal these kinds of potential defects in picture quality or lens life, anyway in their camera testing?

The P200 was one of many with eventual dust intrusion.

 

[baloo_buc]

This is a very strange post. Perhaps he or she was a fired person. We saw that the quality decreased in the last few years but also the prices went down. The manufacturers are lucky that less than 10% observe the flaws.

The P series had a design flaw that made them prone to dust on sensor problems. That's why they stopped the series.
--
Victor
Bucuresti, Romania
http://s106.photobucket.com/albums/m268/victor_petcu/

 

[RamiH]

These are some serious accusations in my opinion...
company secrets, no matter what.
But its always good to know...



Damn, this is shocking!!!

--
Rami.H

http://img51.photobucket.com/albums/v156/rhazer/Canon%2030D/

---Sony F-828---

---Sony T-100---

-----EOS 30D -----

Canon 18-55 (kit lens) Canon 50 1.8 MKII
Sigma 70-300 F4-5.6 APO DG MACRO Sigma 50mm F2.8 DG MACRO
Sigma 30mm F1.4

 

[theranman]

Kudos to the OP for enlightening/divulging the cheapo assembly line procedure. I would imagine it's no different for any other company, but I now more fully understand why the OP believes the price is a ripoff. I don't think that DPreview would ever divulge such assembly line procedures.

Still looking forward to the DPreview of the T100.

 

[wowlfie]

Made in American doesn't mean made in America.

Made in Japan doesn't mean made in Japan.

Made in China doesn't mean made in China.

It simply means that SOME of it is made in those countries.

That's the way it's been for about the last 50 years.

It just doesn't matter where a products bits and pieces come from.

What matters is the OVERALL quality of a product that reaches consumers hands and in general Sony lenses (Carl Zeiss) are excellent as are their cameras and that's all I care about--it's the end result that matters most--I could care less where bits and pieces of a product originate.

If I receive a camera that seems below par I will just return it within my quarantee period and exchange it for another. If a 2nd or 3rd try is no good then I cancel the order. And get a different camera.

Just because you 'buy' a camera doesn't mean your stuck with it.

I doubt any users (except maybe RamiH) would ever notice this 'claimed' cost cutting method as there is no way to verify it.

If I had to guess --this just seems a deliberate attempt of 'Sony Smear' by a disgruntled ex-employee or Sony-hater from Fuji lovers or whatever.

Show me PROVEN results of such lense cutting measures--not claims of poor quality control. And one camera result is NOT a proven result (learn your scientific lessons guys). That's why we have multiple reviews from multiple sources to weigh them all.

Also--in general, Sony lenses are excellent. The H9 uses ED glass made by Carl Zeiss and we KNOW these are good.

This seems a waste of time to post. It's meaningless without valid testing data and results.

 

[sydster]

I just looked my T100 over, I'm so glad I found out what a cheapo filthy scratched up lens it has. It makes it even more a miracle that it takes such beautiful pictures and performs flawlessly. I can't believe these posts that have no basis in fact. How long could Sony stay in business using reject parts. I suppose their electronics and TV's are just as crummy. My 40" Sony LCD sure looks good though. If their quality control is that bad I'm sure it extends into their whole line. Seethe following link
to see some pics through a reject Sony lens....hmmm, not too bad!!

http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/readflat.asp?forum=1009&thread=22932310
--
F717 is enough, whoops, got an H1 and T100.
Maybe that is enough.......for now!!

 

[RamiH]

Umm...what do u mean by this, pardon my thick head..

"I doubt any users (except maybe RamiH) would ever notice this 'claimed' cost cutting method as there is no way to verify it. "

--
Rami.H

http://img51.photobucket.com/albums/v156/rhazer/Canon%2030D/

---Sony F-828---

---Sony T-100---

-----EOS 30D -----

Canon 18-55 (kit lens) Canon 50 1.8 MKII
Sigma 70-300 F4-5.6 APO DG MACRO Sigma 50mm F2.8 DG MACRO
Sigma 30mm F1.4

 

[Diana2]

Mmm, well I'm just wanting to say I will never be thinking about buy a comercial camera like t series, since the assembling process is way too much like handcraft lol

I'm half japanese and worked at sony lens set sector for 2 years, until ask for change to another sector.

I worked there since T5 serie until T20, And was starting to treining at T100 serie assembling line. I can say theres a very nice improvement in this serie but there's still problems with the lenses adjustment for the Auto-focus, performed by the MTF measurent machine. The assembling process is now very modern, very few human errors indeed. Anyway, the T serie are STILL a testing product for a 0 defective product. 1150 lenses sets are assembled every day, every line, but 100 sometimes more sets are defective ones with no aparent reason. Sure, these sets are not assembled in cameras.

I'm not revealing any industrial secret here, just explaining the process used it's preety bad and at least those compact models is still a trying for a defective free production. Since the camera is aimed to non-profissional photographers there's any hard quality control also.

The normal cameras, have very, sometimes any defective production, about less than 0.5% for a very low production (500 sets/day, 24h only). THere's few human error, few re-utilization then.

I'm just saying here also, maybe some cameras have diferent result on tests since the standart and criteria used by sony it's very wide for the T serie. Two T100 can be very diferent each other for sure!

Now, the T100 production is very high, about 1200 sets/day, every line (about 7) those lines work 24h day, day and night. Most of the sony delays in fill the demand is about defective production.

 

[sydster]

I think expensive because most of the material are re-used. Think
of re-used lens...scratches and dirty are very tolerate.

THose lenses are removed from the plastic and lay around 1hour in
hot etanol-dietil-eter for removing the glue. THen those lenses are
cleaned, one by one, by hand, and then re-used. Scratches and dirty
are present all process long.

You said this in your first post, then in your next post you said they didn't re-use the defective lenses and the quality was much improved.. Kinda confusing....eh?

--
F717 is enough, whoops, got an H1 and T100.
Maybe that is enough.......for now!!

 

[Diana2]

They still re-use lenses yes! Only the normal camera model rarely need to re-use lenses cos there's less defective products.

 

[Jared Hunter]

Mmm, well I'm just wanting to say I will never be thinking about
buy a comercial camera like t series, since the assembling process
is way too much like handcraft lol

I'm half japanese and worked at sony lens set sector for 2 years,
until ask for change to another sector.

This is a very interesting post. I don't know if Sony is similar, but here is a tour of the Fuji factory in Japan. The surprising thing is that a many of the staff pictured don't look like ethnic Japanese

http://www.dpreview.com/news/0207/02070504fujifilmfactory.asp

I'm not revealing any industrial secret here, just explaining the
process used it's preety bad and at least those compact models is
still a trying for a defective free production. Since the camera is
aimed to non-profissional photographers there's any hard quality
control also.

I believe the lack of QC is no different from most other makers. For example, I returned my first T-10 because it was blurry in the lower right corner with the right side softening at full zoom. The second one I got performs nicely and is sharp overall. It has been my experience that it is common to have to try a couple of times before getting a good camera from any manufacturer e.g. Canon, Panasonic, Pentax etc.

I wondering if Sony has begun to cut corners with the 2007 T-series models. After using a T-10 than trying the T-100 and T-20, the new models don't seem as solid and appear to use more plastic. For example the top strip between the two halves of the T-100 appears to be plastic. While trying a new T-20 in the shop, I was surprised at how poorly the cover slid to open the lens. Instead of the friction-free teflon-like action of the T10, the T-20 lid at the store was 'dragging' against the case without the feel of a precision mechanism of the older models.

 

[Andi Buchner]

I guess I'm too old to believe in fairy tales ;-)

Diana2 never posted anything before. Just another bashing thread. Like wowlfie said nothing is manufactured nowadays solely in one country.

The described process to re-use lenses manually is way too expensive - even in China ;-)

And even though the T100 is not cheap I never read anything anywhere about lens quality issues - quite the reverse: most users and the first reviewers state that the T100-lens is the best T-series lens.

My Nikon is manufactured in Thailand. No quality issues. It's the quality control.

And in all the T100 threads here and in any other forum I never read anything about quality issues. Did you?

Regards,
Andi
--
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http://www.pbase.com/anbuccos
pbase supporter
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[Jared Hunter]

 

[Diana2]

One or two lenses are nonsenses, but what about one or two thousand of them? Too expensive for sony throw away lots and lots of lenses. One single lens can cost about 2 usd, the T100 serie are even more expensive about 3,5usd and so far. This price doesnt include the transportation.

This is all about industries recycling and all that, it's normal do re-use material/ My only concern about those cameras is how lucky you can be or not. What if someday one of those lenses inside it fall off the mold? You will never know. There's no cheking process for adhesive missing or lacking the curing process.

 

[Diana2]

The newest model are lighter and most of material is cheapest than before models like T5 and even T20 serie.

Although the sony and the fujifilm mentioned is here in japan, the workers are not japanese, most of them are brazilians, chineses, peruvians and filipins. Just a few are japanese.

Right now, the T100 serie production are a bit late. THere's a very bad revision process at last 1 time/week: missing parts inside the camera. Nothing so serious but visible, lacking a seal between two lenses in the Zoom set. That gray round around the lenses we can see easily. that's called shakoban. don't know a translation for that in english. Check if your cam have it lol

Everytime, the sector start to review the components, one by one, sometimes for weeks. Depends how many lotes was notifyed about it. 2000 or a month production, 30.000 or more.

 

[Andi Buchner]

I'm now reading and visiting each and every important forum since years. And I never read anything about lens issues you described. Not about Sony and not about any other manufacturer. Not even about any no-name OEM manufacturer. Did you? Any links? Something to confirm your accusations?

I also found your webblog. Do you really believe working at other companies is so much different? Maybe you had some problems there (and you're also not Japanese like the other Philipine and Brazilian workers), but I never read anything about manufacturing issues. All the Sony issues were conscruction problems like the P-series dust problems and the battery issues.

And even if it all would be true: then they do a great job there at Sony Minokamo EMCS! Quality control semms to work.

Regards,
Andi

--
http://anbucco.zenfolio.com
http://www.pbase.com/anbuccos
pbase supporter
http://picasaweb.google.com/andi.buchner

 

[T. L. Rutter]

The T Series is expensive because it's one of those "gotta haves" for those who want slim and style.

The W series is supposed to be the economy line of the bunch, but I am sure with higher demands that there will be some short cuts.

And I am worried that the H Series may go through the same process, because there is such a huge demand and yet, there's not been any advertising to push this other than their website, and they've truly been low-key at this point.

Can you enlighten us on the build of the H Series?

 

[Diana2]

I'm sorry, the H series is assembled at sony khoda, can't say anything about it. This unit also assembly tv's and the playstations. Most of big tech stuff.

The H series, as well the ordinary camera models are very stable and low production, (about 500 units/day only). There's not so much re-using of lenses also. The lenses set are mostly assembled by machines at the lenses factory sometimes (since it's big) and also the process are far more easy. The testing and calibration machines are very precise also.

Please everybody, don't look down on me for this topic. I was only wanting to expose some facts and also understand some points I miss from my period on that manufacturer area.

 

[LaMesa]

Diana2,

I believe what you say. On the other hand, I would seriously reflect, if talking internals of your former employer is correct and a good idea.

As for the variation of Sony lenses, I once wanted a DSC-S600 badly. It is such an amazing camera. I had to go through 3 examples to find a perfect lens with no blurred image areas. Sony obviously compromises quality on some of their lenses, as do other manufacturers. They know how little the regular point-n-shooter is expecting.
Herbert
--
http://www.pbase.com/herbRD
Sony S600, Olympus C-2020 (IR),Sony H1, WCON-07, TCON-17,