Is Gray Market Stuff Okay?

[cloudripper]

My wife just bought me a Canon Ixy 1000 as a Christmas present from an online seller. She thought she was getting the SD 900 and didn't notice the warranty (90 days labor, 1 year parts) was coming from the seller and not Canon. The manual is a photocopy (they said the camera came from Japan and the original manual was in Japanese). If I return it I lose $18 from the original shipping, another $12 or so to ship it back insured and a $17 restocking fee.

My question: assuming the camera is the same as the SD 900 and appears intact and complete, should I just keep it?

 

[arcticool]

Different people's experiences will varry, but there are some real horror stories around grey market gear. Not only is your warranty invalidated by the manufacturer, meaning that durring your '90 days' Wang's backyard shop is going to attempt to repair you camera, but often times the merchandise is counterfeit and has no real Canon internals whatsoever. A friend of mine got bit on this one on the purchase of an early Digital Rebel that was not a Canon at all! You can forget about the 'one year parts' as they will most certainly state labour charges are higher than the cost of a new camera, maybe even after they've done the 'repair' and may even charge you more, a complete scam where you actually buy a new camera at a huge markup.

If I were you I would review the site and see if they were clear about selling grey market merchandise. If so, I'm afraid you may be out of luck. If not, I would return it and dispute the restocking fee. If you are stuck with the camera I would take some shots right away, compare shot to shot times, startup performace, and picture quality critically with respected review sites. If you find discrepancies, I would return it and call your bank to dispute the transaction if the retailer gives you trouble. Your credit card should protect you from such action. Also if the latter is the case, I would call the BBB and make a complaint. It's free and easy.

Sorry to scare you but you would be surprised how many people get scammed on grey market electronics. Then again, you may have a legit Canon, and have no reliability problems at all. Either way, the grey market is where 90% of counterfeit merchandise is sold so in the future I'd stick with known, rated retailers- the few bucks off just isn't worth the risk.
Good luck,

Jeff

 

[David Hughes124436]

If it wasn't "as ordered" then an e-mail to say you want your money back in full and a copy to the plastic card supplier saying the same might do the trick. On the other hand, a lot of firms make cameras with slightly different specifications for different markets and what you got might be 99% of what your wife ordered. Why not check the specification?

As for repairs etc, they may well pass on repairs to a legit firm and so your in a cleft stick as no one can foretell what will happen. IMO, you get low prices by sacrificing something but what are you losing with Canon, who seem to be OK? After all is said and done you may still have the camera in a few years' time and want something better, even if it still works perfectly.

All this nonsense we read everywhere about a grey market is interesting. As Jeff said, apart from forgeries (and you ought to be able to check that with an e-mail to Canon), "grey" often means from a cheaper source/country and so annoying the suppliers where you live. They then refuse to repair and so on... I don't think for one moment that a firm like Canon have two factories and one turns out good stuff and the other turns out rubbish for the grey market. And they value their reputation too much to let sub-standard stuff through the net.

Look at the people in the UK who would love to import from the USA. Equally look at the people in the USA who'd like to get (say) an Olympus E400.

Just my 2d worth, David

 

[henryp]

All this nonsense we read everywhere about a grey market is
interesting. As Jeff said, apart from forgeries (and you ought to
be able to check that with an e-mail to Canon), "grey" often means
from a cheaper source/country and so annoying the suppliers where
you live. They then refuse to repair and so on... I don't think for
one moment that a firm like Canon have two factories and one turns
out good stuff and the other turns out rubbish for the grey market.
And they value their reputation too much to let sub-standard stuff
through the net.

A forged item is not "grey market." It's a forgery. Presuming that's off the table, "grey market" stuff is made in the same factory from the same raw materiels and design specs at the same time by the same people and is, for all practical purposes, identical. There are name differences and with video, you may find your equip is PAL or SECAM instead of NTSC, but the idea that a "grey market" camera is made of plastic while the "kosher" camera is made of titanium is bologna.

--
Henry Posner
B&H Photo-Video, Inc.

 

[Craig Gillette]

I think that the quality of the merchant is as important (or more so) than the "quality" of the product. A quality merchant is going to have an alternative support system of some sort as well as quality merchandise. But you need to find out what the warranty/repair alternatives offered are that go along with the reduced pricing.

So the OP would need to find out the source. In a general sense, I would have little concern about buying "import" items from B&H and some of the major stores or other quality sources.

You need to evaluate the particulars to see if the savings warrant the trade-offs in support, etc. OTOH, if the "source" begins with weird tales of gross differences in materials to upsell the item or costly alternative warranty or repair contracts, then it's time to bail.

 

[arcticool]

If the camera is a legitimate Canon, it will be the same whether made for sale in Taiwan or in Toledo. I never meant to imply a difference there. I suggested critical photographic test to tell if it actually is a genuine Canon. The real problem with the grey market is, as was the problem with my friend's camera, there is so much counterfeit merchandise which looks extremely close to the real thing. Since the official supply chain is 'broken' this is the preferred method for rip off artists to pass off their junk. A lot of the time the retailer selling to you isn't even aware. And with corruption as omnipresent as it is in Asia, the perpetrators are virtually never prosecuted. For a ten buck discount you sure are rolling the dice.

BTW, good point on the NTSC vs PAL, a discrepancy here is certainly possible.

 

[arcticool]

Generally I would agree with you that when in doubt go with a known/reputable retailer. In this case however, I would still definitely avoid grey market products as the retailer simply doesn't know where the merchandise came from. Grey market gear has no supply chain and therefore no verifiable source.

Maybe cameras from Canon, intended for sale (cheaper) in China got re-routed to your US retailer and you got lucky. However, maybe that camera was actually made in a Chinese factory, specializing in counterfeit goods. A factory by the way, directly across the street from the police headquarters, and owned by the police chief's brother. Out in front of this factory directly on the largest most frequented street in the largest city in China is a storefront selling the counterfeits to local enterprisers who might find their own buyers in Europe and America. Next to the fake Canons and Rolexes in the window are rolls of Polo and Levis lables, for the enterprising Chinaman to open up his own 'Polo' shop, three doors down from the police station. I've lived and travelled extensively in Asia, and I cannot emphasize enough what a large part of the Chinese economy is in counterfeit goods and how much the society simply has no scruples when it comes to stealing and piracy.

The thing to consider when you buy that grey market item is that you have no idea where it came from, and neither does the retailer. Even if it is a real Canon, who knows what its been through to get to you.

 

[henryp]

there is so
much counterfeit merchandise which looks extremely close to the
real thing.

I see phony Rolex watches on almost every street corner in Manhattan but in the decade I've been at B&H I don't recall one single verifiable report of a countrfeit camera. I've seen people order TV sets and receive boxes with bricks inside and during November someone from Missouri reportedly received spaghetti sauce after having ordered a Sony camcorder, but none of that is counterfeit.

--
Henry Posner
B&H Photo-Video, Inc.

 

[arcticool]

there is so
much counterfeit merchandise which looks extremely close to the
real thing.

I see phony Rolex watches on almost every street corner in
Manhattan but in the decade I've been at B&H I don't recall one
single verifiable report of a countrfeit camera. I've seen people
order TV sets and receive boxes with bricks inside and during
November someone from Missouri reportedly received spaghetti sauce
after having ordered a Sony camcorder, but none of that is
counterfeit.

--
Henry Posner
B&H Photo-Video, Inc.

Simply absurd.
Clearly you have a personal stake.

 

[henryp]

Simply absurd.

Okay. I'll bite. Which are the "absurd" bits? The fact is there's lots of counterfeit merchandise out there including Rolex watches, MontBlanc pens, designer hand bags, DVDs, CDs and so on. That said, I've never seen a counterfeit camera and I've never seen or heard of anyone who has and I've never seen a new report of someone being busted for making or selling any. What's "absurd?"

Clearly you have a personal stake.

Of course. B&H sells cameras. That's why I go out of my way (in spite of several interesting conversations with the owner of this site) to include my affiliation in my sig. That said, we clearly identify when a product we're selling is "grey market," and we go to great lengths to know from whom we're purchasing the equipment we sell so we're as confident as can be that nothing we sell is counterfeit or is other than as described.

My "personal stake" doesn't mean I'm wrong.

--
Henry Posner
B&H Photo-Video, Inc.

 

[Craig Gillette]

A quality merchant doesn't sell counterfeit product. It's not worth their time or effort. If you call a schlock house and they begin to tell you it's the"plastic' austronimbian home market version," then hang up. They are going to rip you off, one way or another, or more likely, several ways. Buying from an ephemeral unknown auction source is asking for trouble. Buying a name brand at an outrageously low price from an offshore source is asking for trouble.

B&H, Adorama, and dealers like them don't buy from street corner vendors in West Nowhere to go to the effort to offer some savings or rare product. There are some sources that can't qualify as "approved" dealers that may have the purchasing clout to have added some digital camera type products to their lines. These alternative imports or sources may not qualify for US distributor support. They will tell you it's not an approved dealer source or authorized import. You know going in. It may be a less than optimal purchasing choice but but it's almost certainly not counterfeit.

What has been counterfeited? Some batteries and some types of memory.

 

[cloudripper]

I've returned the camera to wilddigital.com. I appreciate all the responses -- I've definitely learned something here.

After shipping both ways (including insuring it as well as making sure it gets there within the time limit for returns; and they won't refund their shipping charge), plus the 5% restocking fee, I'm out about $70 (assuming we're refunded the $349 -- minus the 5%).

I didn't have a choice. Anytime I handled the camera I worried if it was legit. And if anything would go wrong with it I wouldn't want to go through sending it back to Wild Digital (warranty is through them -- the box said there is no Canon warranty if sold outside Japan).

I've never ilegally downloaded music or software. I've never stolen cable or satellite signals. I won't deal with bad Karma.

So, if anyone knows of a good price on a Canon sd900 from a reputable dealer, let me know.

Thanks.

Edd
Irvine, CA

 

[Jay Turberville]

Simply absurd.

Actually, it is the notion of a counterfeit Digital Rebel that seems absurd to me. Making a DSLR is a complex task. Any company capable of making a counterfeit would surely be well known. The only viable counterfeit DSLR I can imagine would be a mislabeled one. And in that case, it wouldn't be a matter of not being a "genuine" Canon, but would be a fraudulently relabelled Canon. A counterfeit compact digital seems much more plausible. The less complex the product, the easier and more probably that it can be counterfeited. The main problem areas with digital cameras are counterfeit memory cards and batteries.

Clearly you have a personal stake.

Yes. B&H has a stake at maintaining their good reputation. That is a good reason to trust them.

More info on Canon counterfeits.

http://www.canon-europe.com/About_Us/About_Canon/045_Counterfeit/#171574

also

http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/BU0605/S00018.htm

--
Jay Turberville
http://www.jayandwanda.com

 

[arcticool]

I've returned the camera to wilddigital.com. I appreciate all the
responses -- I've definitely learned something here.

After shipping both ways (including insuring it as well as making
sure it gets there within the time limit for returns; and they
won't refund their shipping charge), plus the 5% restocking fee,
I'm out about $70 (assuming we're refunded the $349 -- minus the
5%).

I didn't have a choice. Anytime I handled the camera I worried if
it was legit. And if anything would go wrong with it I wouldn't
want to go through sending it back to Wild Digital (warranty is
through them -- the box said there is no Canon warranty if sold
outside Japan).

I've never ilegally downloaded music or software. I've never
stolen cable or satellite signals. I won't deal with bad Karma.

So, if anyone knows of a good price on a Canon sd900 from a
reputable dealer, let me know.

Thanks.

Edd
Irvine, CA

Good call. Grey market just isn't worth the ten bucks you save.

As to the other posters- I will not get bogged down in a 'yes so' - 'no so' match and suggest anyone seriosly considering grey market to do a google search on 'counterfeit Canon' or 'counterfeit camera'. You may have to dig down a bit below all the recent news of counterfeit sd cards and batteries but you will find the goods.

I have nothing personal at stake while a few others posting here saying counterfeit cameras are not a serious problem do. They can claim they know the source of their cameras, that the producers would need too much sophistication to build a counterfeit dslr, etc. But unless you have done business in Asia, and especially lived there yourself you simply cannot imagine the level of corruption or the sophistication of the criminals. When the government and the police are getting a piece of the pie, companies collude in 'broad daylight' and nobody but nobody dares say a word. Still surprised that when someone gets caught in the act that there is no trial, no conviction, no arrest, and no news? Haha, no offense, but you just don't know Asia...

 

[Craig Gillette]

Nope, you'll come right on back playing your little troll games. I just haven't decided if you are ignorant or a bigot yet. But either way, you aren't worth any more time.

 

[arcticool]

Nope, you'll come right on back playing your little troll games. I
just haven't decided if you are ignorant or a bigot yet. But
either way, you aren't worth any more time.

Calling someone a bigot for pointing out the extreme nature of corruption in Asia is ignorant. Educate yourself a little and realize the truth isn't always 'pretty' before calling names.

 

[David Hughes124436]

Picking up a point or two. I've been involved in fraud investigations and I've come across liars trying to obscure trails and so on but not forgeries. I've also come across a lot of large firms trying to persuade everyone that the stuff sold in France a lot cheaper and the stuff sold in Holland even cheaper are forgeries or something but really they are/were only looking after their own interests. The term "grey market" is a grey term to create a half lie which, like the half brick, can go further and hit more accurately.

As has been said, why set up a factory to duplicate a Nikon when it would cost a fortune to do? People with that sort of money could live a life of luxury off the interest...

Now, stolen stuff, that's a different matter.

Regards, David

 

[David Hughes124436]

An e-mail to the makers might have cleared up a lot of this. I'd be interested to learn what they think.

Regards, David

 

[David Hughes124436]

Look what I found on Google seconds later:

http://www.dpreview.com/news/0609/06091404_canon_sd900.asp

 

[henryp]

Good call. Grey market just isn't worth the ten bucks you save.

Actually, with Canon, absent a rebate it probably is. Canon USA honors warranty repairs on "grey market" cameras as long as the purchase date is established, so there's no in-warranty issue. Unlike Nikon, Canon has never announced they won't handle an out-of-warranty repair, so that's moot too. Most digicams made today which offer a video mode include both NTSC and PAL as a user-selectable option, so that's moot.

Now, before someone suggest I have a vested interest in this, let me remind you that B&H does not sell (and never has sold) "gvrey market" digital still cameras I have no personal or financial interest.

The term "grey market" is a grey term to
create a half lie which, like the half brick, can go further and
hit more accurately.

The term "grey market" is a perhaps-unfortunately alias for what's also called "direct import." It's not a half lie or a quarter lie or an eighth lie. It's a descritpive phrase which the unimformed consider perjorative.

As to the other posters- I will not get bogged down in a 'yes so' -
'no so' match and suggest anyone seriosly considering grey market
to do a google search on 'counterfeit Canon' or 'counterfeit
camera'. You may have to dig down a bit below all the recent news
of counterfeit sd cards and batteries but you will find the goods.

I have no dobt everyone here's aware of counterfeit batteries and memory cards but I repeat -- in 20+ years shooting full time and 10+ years at B&H I have never seen or heard of a counterfeit camera or lens of any value at all. Search away. They ain't there.

The average retail customer has nore to fear from the unscrupulous bait-n-switch scalawag who'll say, "Don't buy this cheap counterfet, but this other higher-priced genuine article," when the entire statement is garbage.

I have nothing personal at stake while a few others posting here
saying counterfeit cameras are not a serious problem do.They can
claim they know the source of their cameras, that the producers
would need too much sophistication to build a counterfeit dslr,
etc. But unless you have done business in Asia, and especially
lived there yourself you simply cannot imagine the level of
corruption or the sophistication of the criminals.

I am pretty confident I know as much or more than anyone else here about the camera business, buying and selling. My stake here is accurate and reliable information. The educated consumer ...

--
Henry Posner
B&H Photo-Video, Inc.