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30D definately has more noise than 20D

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AerialCuriosity said:
Also the display on the 30D will not display properly colors since
all have a yellowish tint to them.

I fly with a lot of newspaper photographers and used their 30D's
and 20D's and it's the same problem with all the 30D's.

I'm dissapointed with the 30D
Click to expand...
You complained about the yellow 3 weeks ago:
http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1019&message=20954655

I don't think the LCD on the back of your camera is what gets printed now is it? :) You said the ACTUAL photos were fine, so why do you keep harping on this non-issue? Maybe if you were a soccer mom who's only way of showing other people pictures was on the back of her camera it might be an issue, but not for a serious photographer like you. :)
 
Just saying that in order to expect such a dramatic headline to be believed perhaps it might be best to show something more than an image with no specifics...in any forum.
--
Member PPA, NAPP, WPPI
 
This is the only intelligent example posted so far. An unbiased opinion by a third party that isn't a "fanboy" and has no compulsion to justify his purchase.

I see most everyone states that the CMOS sensors and filters are identical but no mention of the processor "engine". I'm sure that Canon may have made some internal changes in their manufacturing without shouting it out to the buying public?
--

' You don't have to have the best of everything to get the best out of what you do have'.

 
Spectacular. I wonder what the odds are of getting three "bad" "copies" of a camera body in a row? A million to one? Two million to one?

You ought to go buy yourself a lottery ticket, pronto! The dreaded "bad copy" syndrome! Amazing how often we see this at DPReview!
308shtr said:
I'm on my 3rd 30D body right now and in the process of getting it
boxed up to send back for a 4th copy, I'll keep sending this camera
back until I get a good one.

I agree with you that your 30D may have more noise than your 20D
did, I have found this to be true at 400and above iso also.

I find that my biggest issue with my 30D is with white or very
light birds against dark backgrounds, when I expose for the bird
the shaddows show excessive noise, some to the point where the shot
is useless.

I did not experience this with the 20D, I feel very strongly if you
look at my site you'll see that I know what I'm doing with a camera.

I feel very strongly that there are lot of bad sensors out there
floating around, I also feel that it's fine to be an advacate of a
company and to support it's products but don't be fooled into
thinking that there are not quality escapes in this industry as
well.

Send you camera back to Canon, they will make it right if there is
indeed a problem.

Just my opinion and .02 cents worth, Flame on.

Steve
--
If you would like to view my gallery http://froggy.smugmug.com/
Click to expand...
 
were trying to make entierly.

that it might be somthing is wrong with the camera

or somthing is different about the 30D vs the 20D in terms of exposure and you are underexposing, and therefore have alot of noise.....

that photo does look a but underexposed, and that will create alot of shadow noise

it might also be the sensor has a defect....

if you post somthing like that, and people try to help you out, don't get deffensive. there are afew that didn't help you at all, and a few that did try....make sure to keep the good ones around!

and overall, the 30D and 20D have almost idential noise patterns....so somthing is wrong with either you or your camera.

--
-Machu

Yes, I realize speling is a chalunge for sum of us...I am inkluded in that grup, so pleze foregiv me.

The Beauty of IR

 
The OP can spell when he/she wants to. I don't get it? Why can't they spell when they post to the forum? How do we get helicopter/airplane pilots that can't spell?

As for the topic of the OP, I'm not convinced the OP knows what he/she is doing. We see a sample image without any EXIF. No info on the lens. If they can't post EXIF info or lens info, what do they expect from forum members? Sympathy? (Maybe I should start speeling my wirds rong? )

I looked at the EXIF on the JPEG. F11, 1/1000th, at 32mm. Which lens?
At that shutter speed, at f11, he must've had some high ISO setting.

Add to this the distinct possibility that he's using a cheap piece of glass, I don't feel sorry one bit.

If you want better responses here, you might give us more info.

Good luck.

--

'In 1983, the game of golf had a firm grip on the waist of my boxers and was administering the death wedgie. I had a dose of the atomic yips and after missing 10 of 11 cuts by a single shot, I was ready to quit and apply for a job as a wringer-outer for a one-armed window cleaner.'
  • David Feherty
 
Yes, 20D has less noise. This is confirmed (but not explained) by http://www.digit.no - Norway's highly respected digital photography website:

http://www.digit.no/wip4/test_diverse.epl?id=102910

From the article:

"Several readers report that the new Canon EOS 30D delivers more image noise than the previous model, EOS 20D. They claim that the difference is appearant both with JPEG and RAW. A quick check of the results from previous test indicated that they had a point. Canon informed us that the CMOS sensor in the two cameras are identical. Does this mean that the differences are merely a result of variations from serial production? Or, has Canon changed the production process? Or, was there a series of less perfect sensors just as the EOS 30D reached the assembly lines?"

I skip most of the test, here's the conclusion:

"The test revealed several surprising results. Let me underline the fact that both cameras deliver images with exceptionally little noise, but the EOS 20D undoubtly performed better than the EOS 30D. The differences in JPEG may of course be explained by differences in their processing programming, with less noise reduction in the EOS 30D. (Standard Picture Style in EOS 30D adds +3 sharpness, in EOS 20D, standard setting adds no sharpness). But since there are also visible differences in RAW shots, we believe that Canon has made some hardware changes.

The signal-to-noise ratio is almost the same, yet the EOS 20D shows marginally better values but with JPEG and RAW, especially at ISO 100. RAW shots from EOS 30D, converted in Canon's own DPP software, also show lower values than the EOS 20D, while they are virtually the same when converted in Adobe Camera Raw.

The EOS 20D even show superiour results over EOS 30D in terms of grey scale noise. When RAW shots were converted in DPP, the difference increases dramatically. With Adobe Camera Raw, the results are practically the same for both cameras, equal to the combination of EOS 30D and DPP.

Colour noise is the most annoying form of image noise and this measurement shows the biggest difference between the two camera models. The results for EOS 20D are considerably better than for EOS 30D, both in JPEG and RAW converted with DPP. When converted in Adobe Camera Raw, colour noise is quite appearant from both cameras.

Even our measurements of grain size differs quite a lot. While EOS 20D delivers parallell values for all colour channels, they spread quite severely from the EOS 30D. When converting RAW files in DPP, the grain size is about the same for all colours. With Adobe Camera Raw all results are surprisingly consistent for all colours and ISO speeds. We have no idea why, but it seems that the Camera Raw works in a different fashion than DPP and the camera's processor. Maybe Adobe Camera Raw collects all channels into one grain size before or after performing the rest of the process. We have no answer to that.

When Canon claims that the image sensors, including the low-pass filters, are identical in the EOS 20D and the EOS 30D, it is difficult to find a rational explaination to the differences in image noise performance. The only logical explaination is that Canon has made one og more changes to the sensor, the low-pass filter, or the A/D-conversion. This conclusion is based on the fact that both tested EOS 20D delivered less image noise than the two EOS 30D."

Canon - to my knowledge - has not made any comment to this test.
 
-- The extra noise referred to in the previous post does not explain the noise in the origianl Poster's picture. They are talking about a slight difference and they conclude that both are extremely noise free.

Noise at low ISO (say 400, for example) can be introduced by increasing levels, brightening dark areas in post processing or by your RAW converter.

To avoid noise, use proper exposure. For examples of properly exposed high ISO (say 3200 and 1600 ISO), check the galleries section of this site, then navigate to 30D and view the samples. There are several high ISO shots in the gallery.

Jim Rickards
 
MachuRoberts said:
you are clearly a newbie in this forum, and if you are seriously trying to tel us that a camera with the SAME sensor has MORE noise??? ur kidding.
Click to expand...
If YOU'D been around a bit longer, you might have read some very convincing postings (from John Sheehey, I think?) which made it very clear that if the 30D's metering bias was set differently to that of the 20D (and it is, apparently), then it is ENTIRELY possible for the newer model to generate more noise.

Even with the same sensor.
 
I should add that I still think the 30D is superb, noise-wise, especially as my previous camera was a Nikon D200.
 
I upgraded from the XT to 30D. Found the noise worse then the XT and the LCD had the yellow cast. I had to take my camera in because of Err99 issue. While I was there, I told them about the noise but forgot about the yellow tint.

They had to replace my shutter assembly. The noise level and the yellow tint is a thing of the past. I had the camera back now for about a month now and I am still getting used to it because it is a completely different camera.

So when in doubt, take it in if you can afford to be without your 30D for a while. My trip was well worth it.

Peter
 
That is, when making well-done comparisons, like at least shooting with the same exposure parameters (regardless of metering differences) and the same scene at the same time, with the same lens. Which the OP has failed to do.

I will say, though, that John did find a reason for higher noise levels, but only on the in-between ISO steps (and of these I think only in the +1/3 family, e.g. 120, 250, 500, 1000). But the OP hasn't so far demonstrated much. That pic looks about right what I would get on the 20D. I don't own a 30D, so I won't say anything for or against it, but there's no convincing evidence for the noise levels at full ISO stops to be any different.
Keith Reeder said:
MachuRoberts said:
you are clearly a newbie in this forum, and if you are seriously trying to tel us that a camera with the SAME sensor has MORE noise??? ur kidding.
Click to expand...
If YOU'D been around a bit longer, you might have read some very
convincing postings (from John Sheehey, I think?) which made it
very clear that if the 30D's metering bias was set differently to
that of the 20D (and it is, apparently), then it is ENTIRELY
possible for the newer model to generate more noise.

Even with the same sensor.
Click to expand...
 
What if the metering is a bit different in the 30D such that it tends to underexpose more than the 20D does? Underexposing shots on my 20D can result in very unacceptable noise even at lower ISOs.

Or...

What if some of the other changes made between the 20D and the 30D (such as installing a larger LCD display, etc.,) altered the overall electronic design and layout, and introduced new/different loads on the power system such that there is a higher level of electrical noise riding on the critical power supplies that support the A/D converters and readout amplifiers?

Higher levels of power supply noise could easily result in higher noise in images produced even if the sensor is exactly the same. The sensor is not the only critical part of a sophisticated instrument such as this. Overall circuit layout as well as proper bypassing of critical analog supplies is essential to getting the most from any A/D converter system.

Maybe a well placed bypass cap or two would clear up the extra noise.

I've read about how certain Canon lenses are well known for creating some kind of "banding" in photos. This is because of the "noisy load" that they present to the power system of the camera. Again, a well placed bypass cap or two might clear that up as well.

Anyhow, don't be so sure that just because the 30D uses the same CMOS sensor as the 20D does that this guarantees that the results will be the same.

I've seen some excellent A/D converters produce awful results simply because the circuit board layout was bad and/or proper attention to lead positioning, supply bypassing, ground layout, or adequate isolation between analog and digital supplies was not observed.

The 30D is a new design overall and is different than the 20D. Anything is possible.

But if it was me, I'd try some shots with a bit higher exposure just to be sure that it's not a metering issue. Underexposure causes my 20D shots to be very noisy too. Higher exposure gives me very clean shots. It's worth a try.

--
Jim H.
 
The shutter assembly has nothing to do with noise. I said, while I was there I mentioned the noise issue and they did a software adjustment as well.
Dietmar Fichter said:
Dietmar Fichter said:
They had to replace my shutter assembly. The noise level and the yellow tint is a thing of the past.
Click to expand...
This does not compute. What does the shutter assembly to do with
the noise level of the CCD imaging device?

Dietmar
Click to expand...
 
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