vista install fair report

[linuxworks]

today I went to the mtn view microsoft campus to attend their 'vista install fair'.

you bring your xp box with you, they give you a dvd and you connect up to their screen/keyboard/network and do the install.

it took about 4 hours (my box is an amd64 x2 system with 2gb ram). there were MANY reboots during the process.

you first install an audit cd and do some kind of pre-install qualification. it then shows you which things won't run under vista.

here's the show-stopper: my monaco optix xr pro 'puck' is not vista supported! I wonder if there will even BE a follow-on driver that is vista certified. so I lose my screen puck if I go to vista ;(

nero oem is not supported, either! that's the only thing that writes to lightscribe discs (that I have). so that's a show-stopper for me also.

my cisco vpn software (secure tunnel to work) also is not working.

even MS synctoy is not certified!

and my epson scanner - not certified.

I completed the install and the system did run but without some major things that I need, vista is useless to me.

ok, so there was at least free food there:



and there's a LOUSY pano shot of the outside of the building where the fair was held:



very lousy pano. I know it has distortion. it was a quick grab shot (2 of them), only

it was an interesting afternoon. it was well staffed, there were a lot of 'young' microsoft people there, even ones who had helped write the upgrade scripts. but when I ran into stopper issues - they actually had very little to say. I asked why such a mainstream app like nero is STILL flagged as 'not vista ready'. they had no real reply other than 'its the vendors fault'. sigh.

so I can't login to work with this (no vpn support), I can't calibrate my screen, I can't burn cd/dvd's - I'm not at all satisfied with this 'nearly released' bit of software.

its good that I had backed up my system first. this is completely unusable for me, in its current state.

fwiw..

--
Bryan (pics only: http://www.flickr.com/photos/linux-works )
(pics and more: http://www.netstuff.org ) ~

 

[DiverDown]

You can't blame microsoft because other hardware/software vendors don't have their apps/drivers ready for an OS that isn't even ready.

This happened when XP first came out. I had the RC and betas and a lot of software, especially software that interacts with hardware, such as CD burning software, didn't work until after XP was shipping retail. And it will happen with the OS beyon Vista.

If you want Vista, wait a few months after it ships. That is when just about everything else will be caught up.

 

[linuxworks]

You can't blame microsoft because other hardware/software vendors
don't have their apps/drivers ready for an OS that isn't even ready.

its shipping to businesses SOON.

vendors had the choice to 'get onboard' a really long time ago. so I can blame the vendors.

MS also didn't HAVE to break older apps (read: current apps). they chose to. if it was unix that broke very current apps, I'd gripe too. there is no excuse for that - this will be seen as a stopper by many who plan to upgrade, I'm sure.

This happened when XP first came out. I had the RC and betas and a
lot of software, especially software that interacts with hardware,
such as CD burning software, didn't work until after XP was
shipping retail. And it will happen with the OS beyon Vista.

I know that things will get better over time. but to be fair, vista was a LONG[horn] time in the making. I just cannot understand why some very mainstream things (nero) don't work TODAY. the api's were frozen a long time ago!

If you want Vista, wait a few months after it ships. That is when
just about everything else will be caught up.

I'm on the list (I get a free ultimate copy when it hits retail). but given my experience with this public beta, I'm not even going to break the shrinkwrap seal.

it took years for xp to really get stable and have full apps/drivers support. I wonder how long it will be for vista to be 'as compatible'. I wonder..

hey, I did give it a fair chance - you gotta gimme that

--
Bryan (pics only: http://www.flickr.com/photos/linux-works )
(pics and more: http://www.netstuff.org ) ~

 

[ianR]

You can't blame microsoft because other hardware/software vendors
don't have their apps/drivers ready for an OS that isn't even ready.

its shipping to businesses SOON.

vendors had the choice to 'get onboard' a really long time ago. so
I can blame the vendors.

MS also didn't HAVE to break older apps (read: current apps). they
chose to. if it was unix that broke very current apps, I'd gripe
too. there is no excuse for that - this will be seen as a stopper
by many who plan to upgrade, I'm sure.

This happened when XP first came out. I had the RC and betas and a
lot of software, especially software that interacts with hardware,
such as CD burning software, didn't work until after XP was
shipping retail. And it will happen with the OS beyon Vista.

I know that things will get better over time. but to be fair,
vista was a LONG[horn] time in the making. I just cannot
understand why some very mainstream things (nero) don't work TODAY.
the api's were frozen a long time ago!

If you want Vista, wait a few months after it ships. That is when
just about everything else will be caught up.

I'm on the list (I get a free ultimate copy when it hits retail).
but given my experience with this public beta, I'm not even going
to break the shrinkwrap seal.

it took years for xp to really get stable and have full
apps/drivers support. I wonder how long it will be for vista to be
'as compatible'. I wonder..

hey, I did give it a fair chance - you gotta gimme that

--
Bryan (pics only: http://www.flickr.com/photos/linux-works )
(pics and more: http://www.netstuff.org ) ~

You make some very sound arguments there.

It's frustrating, I'm desperately in need of a new computer and the debate is whether to buy now with a stable XP or wait for Vista which supposedly has much better security.
Each time I feel like waiting, something reminds me what new OS are like.

They have had a long time to get this right and there shouldn't be much more to do in the next 3 months to launch. Really, it should be ready by now as they should be training people, prparing OEM and printing copies, so it' doesn't look very promising.

And I do blame Microsoft. I was working for a company that wanted Microsoft verification on a product of theirs and they could not get anything at all out of MS for just over 9 months.

Companies wanting to get compliance or just produce drivers simply have to wait, and as we all know, it isn't open source and there are loads of undocumented things so they really are stuck. They have to waiit for the OS to ship then do it by trial and error and then still have uncertified drivers.
I think I'll go with XP pro for now and maybe upgrade later.
Thanks for the review. Very valuable to me at least.
Ian

 

[tigger183234]

MS also didn't HAVE to break older apps (read: current apps). they
chose to. if it was unix that broke very current apps, I'd gripe
too. there is no excuse for that - this will be seen as a stopper
by many who plan to upgrade, I'm sure.

All the programs that don't work are doing quite low level stuff (like Nero, which I think wants to access the DVD-burner on a very low level) which they aren't allowed anymore due to higher security restrictions.

That is the problem with higher security: It will most of the time break older stuff. Stuff that is doing things in a way that can get the system unstable.

 

[linuxworks]

It's frustrating, I'm desperately in need of a new computer and the
debate is whether to buy now with a stable XP or wait for Vista
which supposedly has much better security.

xp has been debugged as well as it ever will be - I consider xp fairly mature. its not rock solid but its very mature, in MS terms. vista is a trainwreck - I would wait for its equiv of 'sp2' before jumping onboard.

now, if this was TWO years ago, I'd expect such lack of support (on my x-rite optix puck and nero, etc). but a few months before vista ships - whoa! - major wake-up call.

its a known fact - vista will eat up much more of your resources and give you almost nothing useful back for its stolen cpu/memory. you are throwing more HP (horsepower) but getting questionable value back - I'd put my cpu/mem towards xp or heck, even win2k (which is even more lean on your resources than xp).

vista is not any more secure - UNTIL it proves itself out in the wild. I will have a wait and see attitude. if vista really does lock down the security holes better, I'd happily pay the 'cpu/memory tax' for that. but it has to prove itself and so far, its way too early for that.

They have had a long time to get this right and there shouldn't be
much more to do in the next 3 months to launch.

also given how agressive the feature set was and how pared down it is, now! they've had YEARS to get vista ready for prime time. now, I'd expect OLD stuff like a 5+ yr old scsi card to not work (I didn't even TRY with that - I knew xp didn't support my perfectly good buslogic 958 card (it was THE card of choice - even over adaptec stuff - back when scsi3 was all the rage). now, I have to use unix for those cards. unix NEVER removes old hardware support. never. but windows, in each generation, REMOVES support for perfectly FINE hardware. so my scsi card won't work and that means my nikon ls2000 film scanner won't work. it was a 'hack' to get that 1998 era scanner to work with xp. I know it has zero chance of working with vista. that was a $1000 scanner in its day and I paid close to that! if I have to boot unix to run things like that - why would I pay $400 for vista only to NOT be able to run perfectly good/working hardware?

so I knew that old stuff was going to be 'aged out' but come on - my monaco optix puck is less than a year old! I think monaco (the company) did some kind of reorg (xrite?) and so I don't even KNOW if I'll ever get a vista driver from them. $300 out the window. thanks MS. "oh just re-buy your hardware". yeah, right. THAT will certainly work with all your customers (sigh).

I think I'll go with XP pro for now and maybe upgrade later.
Thanks for the review. Very valuable to me at least.
Ian

sure. yes, go with xp or even win2k.

I really did want to like vista. it was 'free' to me and I do have enough cpu/ram to run this. I actually didn't mind trying to help them improve this whole thing. I gave quite a bit of good feedback to them during the install, too. but I have to be direct - its NOT ready for prime time. too many stoppers for me. no emulation layer or VM or 'sandbox' to run older things in. that is 100% unacceptable to me.

I feel sorry for those that DO buy new hardware, beyond a certain date, and don't HAVE the choice not to take vista. I think it will be forced on every laptop user (etc) beyond a certain date. and sure, the hardware you have on you will work - but if you dare try to buy something even just a few months old - you may be in for a real wake-up call when you try to plug it in.

--
Bryan (pics only: http://www.flickr.com/photos/linux-works )
(pics and more: http://www.netstuff.org ) ~

 

[linuxworks]

for nero, the MS guys said it was a 'filter layer' that was broken.

(what's that?)

its some kind of data abstraction layer. almost like an aspi layer.

so yes, it abstracts hardware - but either nero is calling apis in a very 'wrong way' (and have been, for years!) - or MS just broke some stuff and didn't CARE that a major tier-1 app won't work anymore.

it was amazing - they all acted like 'well, just run OUR cd burning app then!'. ok, smart guys - you have lightscribe ability? (crickets chirping in the background). hello, mcfly - anyone home? you guys support lightscribe? so I can really de-install nero? (again, silence).

"well, I never ran nero" was their response.

uhh, try again MS. not acceptable. when you buy a cd burner from newegg (say) - 9 times out of 10 it comes with nero oem and that is what MOST people use to burn. either that or roxio (I think europe tends to get that adaptec 'stuff' that is now known as roxio). but nero is THE #1 burning app - I know that since almost every burner I've bought from newegg in the last 5 yrs has come with nero!

its actually a very good burner program and seems to not cause problems. roxio was a nightmare last time I tried it and that ez-creator from adaptec (same older program) was not any better. (I wonder if roxio is broken by vista, as well?)

I do remember when linux 'broke' cdrecord (the program). linux went from using an atapi layer to convert scsi commands into atapi (ide) commands - a so-called 'scsi-emulation' layer. we all used that emulation stuff to burn cd's and life was good in linux 2.4. in 2.6 they broke that and said we'd have to refer to the actual low level ide devices ( dev/hdc instead of dev/sg). but it was a few lines of change and we could all do that ourselves! a simple 'ln -s' in dev and we were set to go! a simple work-around and it took all of a minute to 'fix' the system so we could burn again.

unix can do this and still stay stable and secure. MS can't? huh??

MS also didn't HAVE to break older apps (read: current apps). they
chose to. if it was unix that broke very current apps, I'd gripe
too. there is no excuse for that - this will be seen as a stopper
by many who plan to upgrade, I'm sure.

All the programs that don't work are doing quite low level stuff
(like Nero, which I think wants to access the DVD-burner on a very
low level) which they aren't allowed anymore due to higher security
restrictions.

That is the problem with higher security: It will most of the time
break older stuff. Stuff that is doing things in a way that can get
the system unstable.

--
Bryan (pics only: http://www.flickr.com/photos/linux-works )
(pics and more: http://www.netstuff.org ) ~

 

[ianR]

Thanks for the reply. I really confirms what I've been thinking and I do believe it's the right thing to do. I'm going to buy just before/after Christmas when XP will still be available and there may be some cheap Christmas deals about.

Most burners in Europe do come with the terrible Roxio EasyCD creator. Roxio also bought up the excellent WinonCD and promptly killed it to destroy competition even though it was a far superior piece of software.
Ian

 

[DiverDown]

You can't blame microsoft because other hardware/software vendors
don't have their apps/drivers ready for an OS that isn't even ready.

its shipping to businesses SOON.

vendors had the choice to 'get onboard' a really long time ago. so
I can blame the vendors.

MS also didn't HAVE to break older apps (read: current apps). they
chose to. if it was unix that broke very current apps, I'd gripe
too. there is no excuse for that - this will be seen as a stopper
by many who plan to upgrade, I'm sure.

Well...to let you know where I stand on the issue...I now have a Mac on my home desk instead of a Windows system.

This happened when XP first came out. I had the RC and betas and a
lot of software, especially software that interacts with hardware,
such as CD burning software, didn't work until after XP was
shipping retail. And it will happen with the OS beyon Vista.

I know that things will get better over time. but to be fair,
vista was a LONG[horn] time in the making. I just cannot
understand why some very mainstream things (nero) don't work TODAY.
the api's were frozen a long time ago!

the (small) conspiracy-theorist in me things there is a reason for this....forced obsolescence.

...snip...

hey, I did give it a fair chance - you gotta gimme that

Yes. After thinking about it more...the difference between RC1 (I don't have access to RC2) and the retail version won't be much, so what thrid-party stuff is broken now will remain broken. And yeah, I was a little "annoyed" at having to buy new CD burning software and such. Especially when they change the GUI.

 

[Wildpicture]

I don't have access to RC2

You can still download it from Microsoft's site here:
http://download.windowsvista.com/preview/rc2/en/download.htm

--
Regards,
Hans

http://www.wildpicture.com

 

[Barry Fitzgerald]

Lets be blunt here...until th64 bit version has full support across the board..for large numbers of hardware...everything from soundcards, scanners, printers....mobo drivers...everything...

Vista 32bit is a waste of space....

I am sitting on an X2 4200 dual core cpu dying to be unleashed into 64bit mode...and giving me a subtantial performance boost...and thats not happening...and it wont be for a while..ditto with pc's I have already built...most of which in the last 18 months have been 64bit....

I dumped office 2003, now I use open office...I dumped a whole load of other ms software..(though some is still good..autoroute...digital image suite....not bad)..

All I need now is a decent linux distro that supports USB modems for ADSL..and I am off...!
--

 

[W Fenn]

I have built enough of my own boxes with full legal copies of XP to have all I need for anything I will build in the future. At this point I just typically upgrade a new MB/processor etc into an old case and dump a new install onto the existing HD's for a new box. Vista will have many problems and I will wait to jump on the bandwagon until forced to by a new hardware or software requirement. If I should buy a new laptop will be the question as I am thinking of one now and have to decide whether to buy sooner with XP or later with Vista. I can always dump Vista from a new laptop and install an extra XP I have laying around. I just set up a donated old Celeron 600 laptop for my 9 year old and didn't have the original XP Pro disks so I simply dumped Ubuntu onto it and it runs fine. Not a photo processing box at all so my PS isn't required. GIMP is there in case my boy wants to play with some photos.

All is not well in the Vista camp but who really cares?

Regards,
W Fenn
http://www.fennfoto.com

 

[linuxworks]

All I need now is a decent linux distro that supports USB modems
for ADSL..and I am off...!

too bad you don't have a regular dsl-> ether modem. then you don't need that nonsense usb stuff.

I run my dsl modem into my freebsd box - but it DOES dump regular ethernet on my lan and so there is no 'driver' needed. dsl modems are easy enough to find - you should not have to be forced to use usb for a networking stack when you have a perfectly good enet connection!

--
Bryan (pics only: http://www.flickr.com/photos/linux-works )
(pics and more: http://www.netstuff.org ) ~