Why not update the SD9 & 10 cameras!

[Anthony_R]

Upgrade them to do JPEGs as well, and sell them at a lower cost (call them the SD9s and SD10s)...

I was waiting so excitedly FOR WEEKS for the SD14, and now I am so majorly depressed that it's $1999.99 (body only), as reported at Amazon.com.

I absolutely can't afford it!

But I also can't find a legitimate store (Amazon, J&R, B&H, Ritz, etc.) selling a new SD9 or SD10 anymore. As Sigma convinces more and more people of the great advantages of the Foveon chip, but then find many of those people can't afford the cost of the SD14, Sigma needs to keep producing updated SD9 and 10 cameras at lower price points to pull in new buyers who can't afford the SD14.

If only I could find a NEW SD10 (with lens) at around the price of a Nikon D50+lens or even a D70s, I'd consider it. But as of RIGHT NOW, I just might as well buy a Nikon D50 and just wait a year or two for the SD14 to come down in price to around $1,200 or less.

How can a one-camera (SD14) manufacturer like Sigma hope to compete against the multi-DSLR models from Nikon and Canon?

 

[miketuthill]

Perhaps they don't wish to compete for the same market as Canon and Nikon.

My personal observation is that, on average, Sigma users seem to be more passionate about producing good images than using gadgetry.

I could be wrong though.

You could do what some of us have done and pick up a good used SD10. I managed to find 2 of them (sold one to a high-end Canon user who's high-end Canon is now gathering dust) and although there are some weak aspects I'm not sorry I made an investment that amounted to around the same price as a good P&S. Now lenses are another story....

Upgrade them to do JPEGs as well, and sell them at a lower cost
(call them the SD9s and SD10s)...

I was waiting so excitedly FOR WEEKS for the SD14, and now I am so
majorly depressed that it's $1999.99 (body only), as reported at
Amazon.com.

I absolutely can't afford it!

But I also can't find a legitimate store (Amazon, J&R, B&H, Ritz,
etc.) selling a new SD9 or SD10 anymore. As Sigma convinces more
and more people of the great advantages of the Foveon chip, but
then find many of those people can't afford the cost of the SD14,
Sigma needs to keep producing updated SD9 and 10 cameras at lower
price points to pull in new buyers who can't afford the SD14.

If only I could find a NEW SD10 (with lens) at around the price of
a Nikon D50+lens or even a D70s, I'd consider it. But as of RIGHT
NOW, I just might as well buy a Nikon D50 and just wait a year or
two for the SD14 to come down in price to around $1,200 or less.

How can a one-camera (SD14) manufacturer like Sigma hope to compete
against the multi-DSLR models from Nikon and Canon?

 

[Peter Spader]

Anthony;

First of all Amazon's price will not be the last word on the price of the Sigma SD14.

Secondly Sigma is very busy getting the SD14 and RD1 out the door.

Thirdly, why go back to an earlier Foveon sensor when they have the new one. The RD1 will be an one entry route to the Foveon sensor camera for those who cannot afford the SD14. sigmas committment to the best image quality possible makes this unlikely.

Fourth, I doubt this will be the last new camera we see from Foveon/Sigma.

Fifth. We may eventuially see upgrades (software/firmware) to the present SD10/9 just as we saw upgrades to the SD9 when the SD10 comes out (unless the SD14 is so different improvements cannot be ported over to the SD10/9, which is possible) but given how busy Sigma is, this is iffy.

Sixth, I expect some people who upgrade to the SD14 will sell their old SD10/9s, which are still great cameras (and you can get JPEGs from SPP and other conversion software very easily). So that is another way to go.

Pete

 

[Anthony_R]

Anthony;

First of all Amazon's price will not be the last word on the price
of the Sigma SD14.

Peter, I hope you're right.

Secondly Sigma is very busy getting the SD14 and RD1 out the door.

Thirdly, why go back to an earlier Foveon sensor when they have the
new one. The RD1 will be an one entry route to the Foveon sensor
camera for those who cannot afford the SD14. sigmas committment to
the best image quality possible makes this unlikely.

I don't think it has to do with earlier vs. newer. Nikon still makes and sells the older D50 and D70s even though they now make the D80, D200, et. al. Same with the Canon line, they make a range of DSLRs with older and newer sensors at different price points to capture a wide range of potential buyers. If Sigma stops producing the SD9 & 10 (which they have), and put all of their hopes on the SD14 (and RD1, which isn't in the same category, so it's not relevant to my needs), then they may not survive. But I want them to survive, because I desperately want to own a Foveon DSLR, but a new one with warranty, and affordable.

I don't think it's fair that as more people learn about Foveon, they can't get a model closer to what they can afford. If I were at Sigma, I would have put out an upgraded, lower-priced SD10 at the same time as they introduced the SD14. After all, as others have pointed out to me in a different thread, the SD10 can still compete most favorably with the Nikon D200 at large print sizes (16x24, etc.), and with other new DSLRs with larger megapixels.

Fourth, I doubt this will be the last new camera we see from
Foveon/Sigma.

But will it be in the same 3-year interval? I hope not.

Sixth, I expect some people who upgrade to the SD14 will sell their
old SD10/9s, which are still great cameras (and you can get JPEGs
from SPP and other conversion software very easily). So that is
another way to go.

Yes, I expect that might happen, though if I owned one, I would never want to sell it, but would keep it as a backup. Also, I wouldn't want to buy it used, as I'd expect it was really used vigorously. I'm sure the SD10 owner took great care of it, but the owner would still have taken a zillion shots. (I would have!)

I want a virgin Foveon.

 

[Just Looking]

How can a one-camera (SD14) manufacturer like Sigma hope to compete
against the multi-DSLR models from Nikon and Canon?

By making really great pictures at a moderate price? Might work...

j

 

[WHNewell]

Anthony;

First of all Amazon's price will not be the last word on the price
of the Sigma SD14.

Agreed

Peter, I hope you're right.

Secondly Sigma is very busy getting the SD14 and RD1 out the door.

Thirdly, why go back to an earlier Foveon sensor when they have the
new one. The RD1 will be an one entry route to the Foveon sensor
camera for those who cannot afford the SD14. sigmas committment to
the best image quality possible makes this unlikely.

One other issue which Sigma addressed in SD14 is a dedicated image processor. A dedicated processor allows a manufacturer to produce cameras with newer more dense sensors within quicker design to production envelopes. The SD9/10 were assembled with an off the shelf strong arm processor making them expensive to build because of their circuitry. It is because of their "True" processor engine I'd expect the US street price to be closer to $1600. The Amazon price is not credible at this time and should be disregarded.

I don't think it has to do with earlier vs. newer. Nikon still
makes and sells the older D50 and D70s even though they now make
the D80, D200, et. al. Same with the Canon line, they make a range
of DSLRs with older and newer sensors at different price points to
capture a wide range of potential buyers. If Sigma stops producing
the SD9 & 10 (which they have), and put all of their hopes on the
SD14 (and RD1, which isn't in the same category, so it's not
relevant to my needs), then they may not survive. But I want them
to survive, because I desperately want to own a Foveon DSLR, but a
new one with warranty, and affordable.

The SD9/10 are old technology and expensive to build in today's environment. They were essentially first generation cameras. The SD10 actually could have been called the SD9e (or i). By the time it was released the controversy over what counted as a pixel was in full bloom and I'd suspect the designation was chosen because they wanted in some way to exploit the 10.2 mp specification.

I don't think it's fair that as more people learn about Foveon,
they can't get a model closer to what they can afford. If I were at
Sigma, I would have put out an upgraded, lower-priced SD10 at the
same time as they introduced the SD14. After all, as others have
pointed out to me in a different thread, the SD10 can still compete
most favorably with the Nikon D200 at large print sizes (16x24,
etc.), and with other new DSLRs with larger megapixels.

The SD9 & SD10 can both print much larger than 16x24 without loss of sharpness when printed by someone who knows what they're doing.

Fourth, I doubt this will be the last new camera we see from
Foveon/Sigma.

But will it be in the same 3-year interval? I hope not.

The 3 year interval was due more to Foveon R&D to production I believe. I would have preferred seeing 1.3 or 1.5 crop factor instead of another 1.7.

Sixth, I expect some people who upgrade to the SD14 will sell their
old SD10/9s, which are still great cameras (and you can get JPEGs
from SPP and other conversion software very easily). So that is
another way to go.

I wouldn't be surprised to see a lot of SD9/10's on Ebay or in local wantads perhaps even before December. I have little doubt the SD14 will be a milestone amongst Digital SLR's once the word get's out on it's capabilities.

Yes, I expect that might happen, though if I owned one, I would
never want to sell it, but would keep it as a backup. Also, I
wouldn't want to buy it used, as I'd expect it was really used
vigorously. I'm sure the SD10 owner took great care of it, but the
owner would still have taken a zillion shots. (I would have!)

I want a virgin Foveon.

I understand the sentiments you have toward buying new vs. used. However both the SD9 & SD10 seem to be going strong even with some pretty high shutter counts. There are only a few problems with high service cameras I've heard of. If you purchase through some of the online shops you may also be able to purchase an aftermarket warranty with it.
--



http://www.pbase.com/wally_newell

Wally

 

[spalbird]

I don't think it has to do with earlier vs. newer. Nikon still
makes and sells the older D50 and D70s even though they now make
the D80, D200, et. al. Same with the Canon line, they make a range
of DSLRs with older and newer sensors at different price points to
capture a wide range of potential buyers.

Hi Anthony,

the cost to build the SD10 are much higher than the price around 500 Euros here in Germany. As long Sigma doesn't modernize the electronics they pay for each SD10 at that price sold. There is almost no demand for the SD10. Here in a Media Markt the SD10 is hanging around for 499 Euros from the beginning of this year!

I also think that Sigma has to offer their DSLRs at a competetive price or - if the SD14 is real competetive to a D200 they should produce an entry level DSLR as well to increase their customer base.

Now at the end of Photokina we still don't know much about the performance of the SD14 which is a real disappointment.

If you cant spend the money for the SD14 I would recommend buying a used SD10 and get better lenses than the kit lens for it. This is much better than buying the SD14 with a kit lens. Still you can upgrade to the SD14 if you need the performance some years later. If you are in low light or action photography there are better cameras around than the SD10.

Regards

Wolfgang

 

[spalbird]

The 3 year interval was due more to Foveon R&D to production I
believe. I would have preferred seeing 1.3 or 1.5 crop factor
instead of another 1.7.

1.7 => better for telephoto and macro photography
1.5 => better for wide angle photography
1.3 => better for the good 50mm lenses and you get wider angles BUT
you cannot use some of Sigma's best EX DC lenses like the
30mm, 10-20mm and the 50-150mm. The DC lenses are smaller
and less weighty, the FF lenses tend to be heavy and expensive.

I would vote for 1.5, others like 1.7 for macro photography ( with 1:1
macro 1.7 more magnification than at FF or more DOF at same magnification)

I really would like a bigger view finder - but that is another story.

regards

wolfgang

 

[Fredrik Swartz]

I think that they shuld take the Foveon sensor to APS size (1.5 crop factor). Preferably with maintained pixel pitch, as this would increase the number of photosites with 34%.

Result, the SD18 with 6x3Mpixels. This step would firmly place Sigma in the high end and professional market. The image sensor would likely be 1,38^2=1,9 times as expensive and the camera also slower unless the camera processing hardware also is upgraded.
--
F.Swartz

 

[LMC54]

I think that they shuld take the Foveon sensor to APS size (1.5
crop factor). Preferably with maintained pixel pitch, as this would
increase the number of photosites with 34%.

Result, the SD18 with 6x3Mpixels. This step would firmly place
Sigma in the high end and professional market. The image sensor
would likely be 1,38^2=1,9 times as expensive and the camera also
slower unless the camera processing hardware also is upgraded.
--
F.Swartz

They will get there. First you have to find a processor fast enough to handle all that data. And I'll be right there to buy it.
regards,
Larry

--
http://www.fredmiranda.com/hosting/showgallery.php?ppuser=235&cat=500
http://www.pbase.com/lmc54/sd10

 

[JLK]

Turn the 1.7 crop chip on it's side and epoxy two of them together (not literally). This would yield something around 1.3 or so and be an SD30 (nearly). You've still got to fight the buffer and throughput issues of the RAW, and you'll be leaving DC lens users in a quandry---but the camera might really sell...

And they could announce it in a Canon mount. For 3X the price... (new meaning to x3...)



--
Jim

 

[Fredrik Swartz]

The image handling time for the camera wuld increase linear. Why not use a subset/crop of the sensor for high speed (sport) photo like in the high end Nikon D2xs 5 - 8fps (July 2006 RRP: £3499.99).
--
F.Swartz

 

[Anthony_R]

The SD9/10 are old technology and expensive to build in today's
environment. They were essentially first generation cameras.

"old" and "first generation"; sounds like an outmoded camera, yet you say later on:

The SD9 & SD10 can both print much larger than 16x24 without loss
of sharpness when printed by someone who knows what they're doing.

That's sounds pretty good for an "old, first-generation" camera! I just don't accept that the SD10 is too ancient and unworthy of being revised with JPEG capability to make it more marketable.

I thought the point is not about features but about IQ. That's how they're marketing the SD14. All I'm saying is that if Sigma expects the SD14 to sell in the U.S. for between $1600-2000 without a lens, then they are not going to achieve success, and the Foveon chip will become a member of the "Whatever happened to..." club.

But if you insist the SD10 is a dead technology that can't be revived because it is "old" and "first-generation" and "too expensive" to make in today's environment, it still doesn't alter my main point that Sigma should have released a second, D50-type-priced Foveon DSLR to lure those who can't afford the SD14. The DR1 just isn't good enough to satisfy those who want a DSLR like the SD14. And it doesn't have a zoom lens, so it can't compete in the marketplace, imo. Sigma needs to make an affordable (ie $500-999.99) DSLR in addition to their flagship SD14.

(I keep mentioning JPEG capability, but I personally would never use JPEG, always and only RAW. I'm just asking for it so they can market it better.)

I wouldn't be surprised to see a lot of SD9/10's on Ebay or in
local wantads perhaps even before December. I have little doubt the
SD14 will be a milestone amongst Digital SLR's once the word get's
out on it's capabilities.

I understand the sentiments you have toward buying new vs. used.
However both the SD9 & SD10 seem to be going strong even with some
pretty high shutter counts. There are only a few problems with high
service cameras I've heard of. If you purchase through some of the
online shops you may also be able to purchase an aftermarket
warranty with it.

Thanks for your comments, I really appreciate it, and maybe I will find a used SD10 for, say $500-600.

 

[Anthony_R]

How can a one-camera (SD14) manufacturer like Sigma hope to compete
against the multi-DSLR models from Nikon and Canon?

By making really great pictures at a moderate price? Might work...

j

It's the "moderate price" that I wish they had addressed, they've already got the "great pictures" capability nailed. I just can't afford a DSLR without lens that is priced over $1200, and based on the sales of the Nikon D50 and Canon Digital Rebels, I'd say I'm in a good-sized market.

How about if Sigma adopts the philosophy of ink-jet manufacturers: make a cheaper printer and make your money selling ink. If Sigma makes a good but affordable Foveon DSLR with a unique lens mount that only Sigma lenses will work on, they can make up the low-profit margin of the DSLR with the sale of their lenses.

I'm just throwing out ideas for Sigma to consider so they can make a DSLR I can afford!!!!

Anthony

 

[spalbird]

Yeah, everybody wants this SD14 PPL with the filled pocked will get it first, we will have to wait for some time. What is the problem?

regards

wolfgang

 

[misha]

Upgrade them to do JPEGs as well, and sell them at a lower cost
(call them the SD9s and SD10s)...

I was waiting so excitedly FOR WEEKS for the SD14, and now I am so
majorly depressed that it's $1999.99 (body only), as reported at
Amazon.com.

Don't believe the Amazon price - they very often quote ridiculous prices for new cameras/lenses before they start shipping, and then cut them in line with the market price. I think they quoted $9,999 for Canon 30D - seriously
--
Misha

 

[SandyF]

"old" and "first generation"; sounds like an outmoded camera, yet
you say later on:

it's generally not the Foveon sensor which has gathered some complaints about its specifications, but rather buffers, write speeds, shutter-related issues, focus maybe, ie electronic components that aren't the sensor component. So upgrading, re-designing with new electronic components, you'll essentially have a new DSLR, not a SD9/10 "innards" -- which in a sense is the SD14.
....

That's sounds pretty good for an "old, first-generation" camera! I
just don't accept that the SD10 is too ancient and unworthy of
being revised with JPEG capability to make it more marketable.

see comments in threads about other processor changes; from the Japanese article as well as the SD14 spec sheet it sounds as though the processor components have been significantly upgraded

I thought the point is not about features but about IQ. That's how
they're marketing the SD14. All I'm saying is that if Sigma expects
the SD14 to sell in the U.S. for between $1600-2000 without a lens,
then they are not going to achieve success, and the Foveon chip
will become a member of the "Whatever happened to..." club.

I see filling the lower-price NON-DSLR product category = the role of the Sigma DP1. Note you'll have that 14MP Foveon sensor in the DP1

But if you insist the SD10 is a dead technology that can't be
revived because it is "old" and "first-generation" and "too
expensive" to make in today's environment, it still doesn't alter
my main point that Sigma should have released a second,
D50-type-priced Foveon DSLR to lure those who can't afford the
SD14.

Let's Sigma get these two products out the door, then see what other products complement the camera line.
The DR1 just isn't good enough to satisfy those who want a

DSLR like the SD14. And it doesn't have a zoom lens, so it can't
compete in the marketplace, imo. Sigma needs to make an affordable
(ie $500-999.99) DSLR in addition to their flagship SD14.

again, first SD14 available then DP1 and then other products can be produced

I wouldn't be surprised to see a lot of SD9/10's on Ebay or in
local wantads perhaps even before December. I have little doubt the
SD14 will be a milestone amongst Digital SLR's once the word get's
out on it's capabilities.

Threads here suggest that many SD10 users will keep their SD10 as backup cameras. I will.

If you don't want to buy a SD14 (when available) or DP1 when available probably next year, per posts on threads, yes a used SD10 is an option. Buy the camera, get some EX lenses, don't bother to collect the cheaper lenses, generally go EX, then you'll be set to later upgrade to SD14 or some future camera, all the while taking photos with the SD10.

I should have started with a SD10 + 50mm EX, instead I thought I needed to cover lots of ranges: my 18-50mmDC, 70-300 nonAPO just live in my cam bag, generally don't use them. What I find great lenses for me are 10-20EX, 50EX, 28-70EX, 105mmEX, also lugging around that70-200EXnow too (one big lens for me....)
Best regards, Sandy
[email protected]
http://www.pbase.com/sandyfleischman

 

[Anthony_R]

Don't believe the Amazon price - they very often quote ridiculous
prices for new cameras/lenses before they start shipping, and then
cut them in line with the market price. I think they quoted $9,999
for Canon 30D - seriously
--
Misha

Really (for the 30D)? Wow, that makes me feel a little better, thanks.