Photokina first impressions...

[PhotoTraveler]

I would like to hear if they said much about the ZA's. I was expecting/hoping some more formal info, and some news on other ZAs.

I see in some shots we now get to see the Giant hood for the one.

Curious if anyone looked at the numbers, see if it looks like they are in production, or were they still at 000010.

I also want to hear how the focus ring was. Does it feel like a real MF lens. Or does it feel like junk like say the 100-300 APO D.

 

[tapir]

But - you have not yet seen any reports on the noise levels of the
Canon 400D.

In Phil's D80 review you can see pretty detailed noise comparo between all 3 cams. To my eye Canon wins noise/detail but by a small margin over 2nd place D80.

--
http://www.pbase.com/klopus

 

[Mark VB]

Expectations and hope are two different things. I guess I really
did not expect much out of Sony. I was hoping for more, just I was
hoping for news about Nikon long telephoto VR lenses, and perhaps
something from Canon about a new EOS 1 camera, all of which could
help clarify my decision making process about switching, and where
to go. Instead, it appears I get nothing, from anybody.

I share that! In many ways very disappointing. Speaking of
Roadmaps, neither Nikon nor Canon gave any indications of what
their directions were for their mid to higher end stuff.

No, but then they already have pretty good product in the market available for purchase and use. The D200 is about a year old, the 30D less than that. The EOS 1D series and Nikon D2X are getting closer to replacement (notwithstanding the recent minor upgrade of the D2X, which probably means nothing will happen to that model for at least another year - sort of like what Nikon did with the D70 and the S version), but are still good products. We, on the other hand, have no such product, don't know if we will, and if we will when or what it might look like (or cost). Moreover, one knows that Canon and Nikon will be active in the market, so it's not a question of if but when.

Pentax comes out with a A100 clone and I truly aplogize if that
offends but that is how it strikes me. IBID Canon and Nikon
...granted there will be differences in performance because of
better firmware etc

I generally agree, not that it really matters to me. Cameras at the entry level tend to be quite similar in specifications and features (there's only so much you can do at that price point). Of all the new 10 MP entry level bodies, the Canon is to me the least impressive. The D80 and Pentax K10D seem like better options, and in various ways superior to the A100, which is a decent camera for what it is (and one I would choose over the Canon without question).

But, what I was not expecting, was the information in David's
report that to me indicates Sony does not understand the higher end
market segment. The comments on the SSM feature are quite damning
in my book (also the noise "question" though less so). Thus, while
I really was not expecting much, if anything, in the way of future
product, I was not expecting comments that indicate Sony does not
understand the market in which I am a customer (e.g.,
higher-end/professional level equipment).

It is these comments more than the lack of new product announements
(or development projects), that has me more convinced that
switching sooner rather than waiting until next year to decide may
be my better course.

Well here is where we part company...the comment I found most
interesting was that Sony intends to compete with Canon on all
levels. I did not read so much as you did into the comments on the
SSM stuff. Yes it was disappointing to me on the lack of David K
support. OTOH I think it is important to put where we are with
Sony in contsxt
2005 announced a DLSR based on A mount
Jan 2006 took over KM Digital stuff
June 2006 Annouced the a100 which they had previoulsy indicated
twas low end item. Also annouced an initial lens lineup of 20 lens
with 3 CZ lenses on the horizon

A reported statement that Sony intends to compete with Canon is less meaningful to me (and sounds similar to Minolta and KM "promises" to further develop its system that never materialized), particularly when all evidence thus far indicates that Sony does not understand the higher-end segment of the market. It does not yet have the product, and what few lenses it has (or has announced) are not generally price competitive nor are they likely competitive in AF performance (except the SSM lenses). One can debate how far Sony has come in the time since summer of 2005 when it announced the joint venture with KM to develop a camera. I have heard that Sony at the time intended to focus on the entry level, leaving it to KM to provide the higher end bodies. But, obviously that changed in January when KM announced it was folding. Keppler reported elsewhere that in late 2005 KM officials told him they were working on a higher end camera and that he should wait until the spring 2006 to see what they were developing. While that obviously neer happened, KM clearly was well on its way with that project. Who knows what Sony has done with it.

[To be continued]
--
Mark Van Bergh

 

[Mark VB]

[Continuation]

The 135 F 1.8 fascinates me being a low light level sort of guy. I
mean that translates into a~200mm 1.8 equivalent in body with A/S.
If this is going to turn into a system with high performance CZ
lenses then that strikes me that Sony does get it. We can debate
all we want about constitutes pro and pro features on a camera but
to a pro, high performance opticallly is a must. Not everyone needs
the quiet of an HSM lens and I have yet to see anything that says
an HSM lens is optically better or focuses sigificantly faster than
its equivalent body driven.

SSM/USM/SW/HSM is irrelevant to the optical quality of a lens. But, it undeniably provides superior AF performance, Generally faster focus, obviously quieter, better able to track focus, and more flexibility in having manual focus available all the time without having to flip a switch or hit a button. I have played around with many of Canon's USM lenses, and recently shot with a D200 (as noted in an earlier post). There is a significant difference in AF performance (just read some of the posts from those who have already switched). Compare almost any of Minolta's G lenses and their AF performance pales in comparison. The complaints about the slow AF performance of Minolta's 28-70/2.8 G lens are well known. The Canon or Nikon equivalent lenses don't suffer such a problem. Even the "HS" versions of Minolta's longer telephotos don't generally compare too well in terms of AF performance to the competition (optics is a different story). Optical quality is certainly an important part of the equation, but whatever differences there are between the Sony/CZ lenses (even assuming they are better) and the Canon L lenses and Nikon's pro glass, will be pretty small while the difference in AF performance (without SSM) is likely to be more significant.

Sony said in Jul7 two DLSRs in 2007. Well since Nikon et al didn't
give me anything of a roadmap, I may be better off with the Company
that wants "to compete on all levels"

We know Canon and Nikon want to compete on all levels because they already do. Sony does not, and we only have a few words from it on which to depend. Moreover, it won't be able to compete if it doesn't understand the market in which it says it wants to compete. Nor would I think that one would be better off when you don't know what Sony really means when it says it wants to compete on all levels. We might take it one way, but that may not be how Sony means it.

And, how long will it take before such products hit the market and what are folks to do in the meantime? I cannot continue to suffer with the inconsistencies of the 7D's flash system. (I spent several days working on the post-processing of images from a Bat Mitzvah I photographed - I can't and don't want to continue to have to do that; another photographer for whom I sometimes shoot weddings has basically given me until the new year to resolve the flash exposure problems - he does not want to spend long hours on his computer post processing inconsistently exposed photographs, and I can't blame him.) Maybe given enough time Sony will figure out the market, bring out the right product, and provide some kind of track record or reason for more advanced photographers to chose it over Canon or Nikon in the higher-end products, but that is likely to be a long time from now.

I'm not about to switch to either Canon or Nikon at this time based
on what I've seen in the mid to high range. They haven't given me a
roadmap either.

They have product. They don't need as much of a roadmap. Now, if you don't like the product, that's different (both system's cameras have flaws from my perspective, and Nikon's lack of VR lenses is another concern, just as is Canon's reportedly less reliable flash system). I can buy mid to high range Canon or Nikon gear. I can't say the same for Sony (athough I already have many of Minolta's lenses in that category, I would slowly like to upgrade them, like I did when I got the 70-200/2.8 SSM lens to replace my 80-200/2.8 HS lens). My 85/1.4 lens, while optically excellent, focuses way to slowly to be usable for fast moving action at a wedding (even dancing gives it problems in tracking focus). Only time will tell if the CZ 85/1.4, which also has mechanical focusing, not SSM, is much better in this department. I could go on (and have), but you get the picture.

--
Mark Van Bergh

 

[JulienHG]

Hey, sounds like what I have said for a long time. SSM isn't needed
for the cheaper stuff. Like sony, I don't get why so many people
want this. Canon EOS mount was designed for in-lens motors. But I
don't think all of them are super fast or anything special. To me
saving SSM for the G line makes the most sense. Add the cost to the
lenses where cost is less of an issue since people are already
willing to pay if they are going G. I would have followed up with
a question of more G's coming back with SSM. Knowing if the Big Gs
are coming back is a big issue for me and probably others too.

I totaly agree with you Phototraveler. SSM is definitely not something that add anything relevant to normal lenses. I might see the interest only for G lenses. My interest is also to see big ones G lenses coming back... like a 400 4.5 G, which is almost impossible to find used! or a good 300 4 G as well.

You can't have this technology everywhere, and for everyday photographers, what the meaning to have it in every lenses. I don't think many pros are shooting with Minolta nowadays... therefore the range of lenses should be adapted to the consumer targer: newbe to serious amateur. And they made the good choices so far. Just a bit slow maybe! ;-)

--
http://superjuju29.deviantart.com

 

[Ari Aikomus]

Hi,

Thanks again for excellent & quick reports - but did you saw any
sign for Ownuser Battery Grip (for KM 5D/7D, A100) ?

http://www.ownuser.com.tw/e-FBH1.htm

I checked the Chinese product hall and found all the replacement
batteries etc - very good stuff there - but no sign of this grip.
Photokina is huge and I was only there for a full day. So it is
probably there, and I just missed it.

David

--

• Ari Aikomus -

 

[PhotoTraveler]

My deep hope is the 4.5/400 G is the first G to return that we haven't seen yet.

That is a lens that very much needs to come back.

 

[Gil Knutson]

a new version of the 100-300mm APO (D) with SSM.

I couldn't understand why they dropped the original 100-300 APO (D)
from the lineup in the first place, it's a very good lens at a
reasonable price.

Whoever is in charge of making those decisions, obviously is in need
of major bit surgery! ...removal of the head from the rectum!!!



--
Gil
Sardis, BC
Canada

 

[KEITH-C]

Providing that there was not too heavy a premium on having 5fps it would be useful on occasions. This summer I was shooting some chaffinches feeding on a rock & continuous shooting got me some nice photos.

Shooting fast moving action such as surfers/tennis players would also use this facility & these are the kind of shots that many amateurs would like to get right. A choice from a stream of shots enables that decisive moment to be captured.

Keith-C

 

[Gil Knutson]

But exactly "how big" is the old KM user base, how much of sales is
to new DSLR owners how had never owned one before. Just because it
uses the old mount doesn't mean they have to pander to certain
whims of a group of users.

I was thinking the same thing. The old Minolta users probably number
in the thousands... and dwindling. The NEW Sony users... who will
mostly be newbies... may number in the tens or hundreds of thousands.
What the old fuddy-duddies think is basically unimportant.

I hear many... myself included... on this forum whining and moaning
about how poorly Sony is handling the new development. Sony just
has to look at the bottom line... they ARE selling their cameras
in great numbers (now, where we really know that from still has NOT
been expalined to me). The way Sony looks at it, they want to get
the base set... people with camersa, period!... and THEN when that
goal is reached, they can focus on producing things all those NEW
users want or wish for. Our input is so trivial, it is pathetic. Its the
same old, same old!!! Complaining about what Sony IS doing is as
effective as piddling into the wind... like a hurricane!

I have almost decided that I will go the Sony way... for now. I have
a couple of flashes and a couple of lenses... which I will add to with
a Sigma, because Sony is so stupid that they don't know what I
want. Perhaps, once it is released, I may really lust for the 16-80,
but for now the 17-70 f:2.8-4.5 will serve me well. I have most of
the basics covered. I retire in 14 months and will spend a lot of time
photographing things I never had the time for before... and not have
to pay the processing costs that my film used to cost me.

I just wish that Minolta had been able to get their digital camera
shoe-horned into a Maxxum 5 body and sell it so successfully that
they would not feel compelled to bail! )

--
Gil
Sardis, BC
Canada

 

[KEITH-C]

Yes Tim when so many people complain that they want a clearer idea of what Sony propose for the future are you saying that their expectations are all wrong. Whatever happened to that old dictum ' The customer is always right ' ?

With the other manufacturers we have a pretty good idea , from past releases & looking at their range, of what they will do next. Sony's plans are more uncertain & in view of their past marketing ,which is usually aimed at a mass market consisting of loyal buyers, photographers understandably want more information.

It may not be appropriate to give exact specifications but a little more information would help to keep many from defecting to alternative camps. Hopefully when they have cashed in on Christmas sales of the Alpha then they will be a little more forthcoming. If the silence continues beyond that then they will appear to be uninterested in living up to their grand mission.
Keith-C