My SD700 Ixus 800 IS is going back

[packy]

It puzzles me how the SD700 lobby consistently misses or avoids the
main point and the key reason for the issue I experienced - no
[manual] control over shutter speed. This is just silly.

Then why did you but the bloody thing!! Surely you knew it had no manual controls before you bought it...so I guess you're the one who is silly.

Packy - I am still waiting for a convincing SD700 low light example
created with your steady hands.

Your tapped man!......I gave you a handheld shot at 1/13s in total nightfall (hello!..lowlight!) with moving traffic from a camera that has no IS (which in case you might not understand is harder to do than having IS) and you are not convinced......well then go play with you casio and see can ye do better, I'd put my house on it that you won't though. I be damned if i'm going mucking about for someone who ain't got a clue and especially for someone who have continuously claimed that they got blurry images form a SD700, but yet under constant demand, won't produce one single photograph. Why??..........we all know it's more to do with the operator than the camera and the photos would prove that, but you won't produce them so basically go waste someone elses time in the casio forum. BTW how many cameras is that you have handed back, because in a post on the casio forum you said youv'e handed back quite a few.....Surely you should take a look at your methods of how to research to get the proper camera...because yours ain't working too well!
***************************************************************
Packy

http://homepage.eircom.net/~vmax ; for my pic stuff

 

[Cipher]

It puzzles me how the SD700 lobby consistently misses or avoids the
main point and the key reason for the issue I experienced - no
[manual] control over shutter speed. This is just silly.

Ummm...didn't you notice that the SD700is has no "S" mode on the dial? If you want a camera where you can control the shutter speed or the aperture, look for the following on the mode dial.

A = Aperture priority
S = Shutter priority

It's not silly to not have control over shutter speed. Many, if not most, p&s cameras don't have this because they're aimed for people who don't want to learn or use these modes. You should do more research on the features of a camera you purchase it. Then you won't have to come here saying that the camera is a piece of junk.

 

[packy]

Incorrect.....according to you the camera selected ISO400 and f2.8.
That's nearly the best possible usable combination that the camera
automatics allowed or that you could have selected even if their
was manual controls.

Packy - I never mentioned F2.8 and it was me who set the ISO to 400.

First, you don't have to set the camera's ISO to 400 if you don't want to, it can be set on auto and it will go to ISO400 automatically. Second, you didn't have to mention f2.8. I KNOW it was at f2.8....why??.....well if you knew your stuff (this is not just for the SD700) then you would know if the camera goes beyond decent handholding speeds it will automatically use the fastest possible shutter speed and the widest aperture available which is f2.8 on manual (program) auto. If you are on FULL AUTO, it won't even attempt this, it will use the flash straight away. The camera will NEVER EVER select anything higher than f2.8 for 1/4s and 1/6s exposures with the SD700, unless you are in the night scene mode which it will select a low ISO and different aperture, knowing the user will be using a tripod which it recommends in the manual. The more we talk, the more your lack of knowledge of how a camera actually functions, shows up big time.

I grasp it quite well, Packy. The best and optimum combination that
the camera allowed in my situation created unusable blurry
pictures. Not noisy or under exposed - COMPLETELY UNUSABLE!
I can not see how can you not grasp this after so many replies.
I hoped that I would be able to shoot with faster
(usable) shutter speed in the given conditions.

Then as I said before you would either need (a) more light or (b) a faster lens than f2.8 which is very rare in compacts, and which is why I mentioned an f1.8 on a dslr, or (c) a higher ISO. Given that the SD is about best at ISO400 and is EQUAL to if not better than any other compact out there except probably three, the F10/11/30....backs up my statement which I have said time and again to you here, that if you couldn't get usable photos from the SD700 in the conditions you were in (which is not surprising as most shots were 1/4s and 1/6s), you wouldn't have gotten them from any other camera either at this present time except with a camera with a reasonable clean ISO1600 which would have given you more shutter speed which would be the Fuji's F10/11/30 or a dslr. If you do, I will take my hat off to you. It has nothing to go with manual controls. If an exposure is 1/4s and you could manually adjust the SS to 1/32s to handhold, you would be under exposing by THREE STOPS and would be rubbish even if you tried to pull the photo in PP. What you need is more light reaching the sensor, be it from a higher sensitivity sensor, faster glass to let more light in, or an external light source on the subject. Your concept of just manually forcing the SS that YOU WANT, not what the CAMERA WANTS, is going to yield chronic results even after pulling them in PP due to noise and lost color and probably detail as well.

THIS IS THE LAST EFFORT TO GET THROUGH TO YOU. Here is a demo. Here is the only church shots I have at ISO400 with the Fuji E900. Leave aside the camera model, what I want to demonstate is that even with a shutter speed of 1/34s in SHOT ONE, it still couldn't stop the movement of the priest and it turned out blurry. In SHOT TWO, the SS was a bit higher and the people more static so the result was very acceptable. But nothing like I could have got with a dslr with the right glass. So if you think that you could have walked away with shots that according to you were mostly with 1/4s and 1/6s....then that was proposterous and a total lack of photograpic knowledge on your behalf to expect that with ANY COMPACT.

If you can't grasp this then forget it, live in your ignorance. It dosen't matter what camera, what controls etc etc...if the light and the speed ain't there then that's it, you are goosed. As I said only three compacts todate might buy you more shutter speed with acceptable results. They are the F10/11/30. Other than that maybe the FujiS9000 bridge camera. But the way to go is a DSLRs. Here are lowlight D50 shots which would blow any compact. SHOT THREE/FOUR was at 1/6s HANDHELD with VR lens at ISO1600 with no noise reduction.
Lesson over...digest!









*****************************************
Packy

http://homepage.eircom.net/~vmax ; for my pic stuff

 

[packy]

It puzzles me how the SD700 lobby consistently misses or avoids the
main point and the key reason for the issue I experienced - no
[manual] control over shutter speed. This is just silly.

Ummm...didn't you notice that the SD700is has no "S" mode on the
dial? If you want a camera where you can control the shutter speed
or the aperture, look for the following on the mode dial.

Well.... in a church which only gave 1/4s and 1/6s exposures at ISO400 at f2.8, he calls "reasonably lit". My outdoor nightshot would have been 1/26s at ISO400 and was better lit than his church shots LOL!!.....so maybe there is a wee problem in the lamps department.

*****************************************
Packy

http://homepage.eircom.net/~vmax ; for my pic stuff

 

[gail]

It's not silly to not have control over shutter speed. Many, if
not most, p&s cameras don't have this because they're aimed for
people who don't want to learn or use these modes.

Packy and you are right on about this, particularly when talking about an ultra compact digital camera. This is one of the most interesting and informative things I've read on the subject and was the final bit of info I needed when deciding to buy the SD700:

http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1018&message=17900263

Now, if the SD700 was my only digital camera and/or I wanted manual control, I would NOT have bought it. With rare exception, I can get almost every type of shot I want, including control of depth of field. It just takes some time and practice learning to use it correctly. It's a simple as that.

--
gail ~ http://www.pbase.com/gailb
My digital camera BLOGs: Canon SD700, S2 & A510; Panasonic FZ3, Nikon 5400
http://www.digicamhelp.com/digital-camera-blogs/index.htm

 

[Rob Bernhard]

But the images were exposed for the light, therefore an increase in shutter speed would simply give you vastly underexposed images.

 

[Nickolai]

BTW how many cameras is that you have handed back, because in a
post on the casio forum you said youv'e handed back quite a
few.....

If this is really of interest to you here goes:
Sony DSC-V1 - had it from new for 18 months and sold (poor battery life)

Casio P600 - had it from new for 9 month and sold (not sharp enough, poor colour rendering)
Casio P700 - had it for 5 days - severe NR artefacts and wobbly lens + see above

Casio Z750 - had it for a week - poor auto white balance, questionable reliabilty at the time, liked it otherwise.

Casio Z850 - poor video - going to have another attempt with it after the firmware fix

Sony P200 - had it for five days - liked it - was scared by the dust issue and general poor reliability record. A bit too much NR for my tastes

Sony N1 - 3 days - no gain on the touchscreen - can't see what you shooting in low light, way to expensive

Canon SD550 - liked it the most for sharp pictures and good colours - did not see so much red-eye and did not try it in low light w/o flash (no IS - no exagerrated expectations...) Did not keep it as it was rapidly dropping in price - still on my list
Canon SD700 - three days - see my first post on this thread

Currently keeping:

Sony F828 - I have no major regrets about this camera, love the lens and the colours. Less noisy sensor and IS would definetely help it though.

Currently borrowed
Sony V3

Hope we can close now.

PS I would find your last tutorial useful for newbies, if only it was not a tad intimidating. Good luck with your educational efforts though, with time you will get better.

 

[Jacom]

You've certainly had a few camera and returned them in the last year. From the list I see several cameras which I have used quite recently the Canons and Casios amongst them. All produced slightly different but good pictures. Red Eye is easily corrected in software but you unless you have hundreds of picture to process it isn't really a problem.

If can't find a camera to satisfy you from the ones tried then I sugest you go for something just a little more expensive like DSLR a Nikon D50 or Canon 350 for instance. You will still get a certain amount of red eye and problems with subject movement due to low shutter speed but that happens on all cameras.

 

[gail]

If can't find a camera to satisfy you from the ones tried then I
sugest you go for something just a little more expensive like DSLR
a Nikon D50 or Canon 350 for instance.

One can always take up a new hobby.

--
gail ~ http://www.pbase.com/gailb
My digital camera BLOGs: Canon SD700, S2 & A510; Panasonic FZ3, Nikon 5400
http://www.digicamhelp.com/digital-camera-blogs/index.htm

 

[packy]

BTW how many cameras is that you have handed back, because in a
post on the casio forum you said youv'e handed back quite a
few.....

If this is really of interest to you here goes:
Sony DSC-V1 - had it from new for 18 months and sold (poor battery
life)
Casio P600 - had it from new for 9 month and sold (not sharp
enough, poor colour rendering)
Casio P700 - had it for 5 days - severe NR artefacts and wobbly
lens + see above
Casio Z750 - had it for a week - poor auto white balance,
questionable reliabilty at the time, liked it otherwise.
Casio Z850 - poor video - going to have another attempt with it
after the firmware fix
Sony P200 - had it for five days - liked it - was scared by the
dust issue and general poor reliability record. A bit too much NR
for my tastes
Sony N1 - 3 days - no gain on the touchscreen - can't see what you
shooting in low light, way to expensive
Canon SD550 - liked it the most for sharp pictures and good colours

• did not see so much red-eye and did not try it in low light w/o

flash (no IS - no exagerrated expectations...) Did not keep it as
it was rapidly dropping in price - still on my list
Canon SD700 - three days - see my first post on this thread

And the winner iiissssss....the Casio Z750 which lasted seven whole days!!

Currently keeping:
Sony F828 - I have no major regrets about this camera, love the
lens and the colours. Less noisy sensor and IS would definetely
help it though.

hmmm....so you prefer a noiser camera with no IS, to a less noiser camera with IS....and don't forget a coating to get rid of CA and something to adjust the barrell distortions as well. Hell there's more quirks here than all the rejected ones above put together...I amazed you still have that dinosaur!...and to think you rejected a camera above over ONE THING... poor AWB. I guess it's too difficult for a pro to use the preset WB.

PS I would find your last tutorial useful for newbies, if only it
was not a tad intimidating. Good luck with your educational efforts
though, with time you will get better.

PS.......and let you keep on trying cameras...in time you will get better too..LOL!! ...and to think of the three possible candidates you mentioned in a previous post that you said would have done the job along with the F30 over the SD700......you sent them all back!! LOL!!

"As far as non-existance of other compacts beyond F30 that would do a better job - how about Sony P200, Casio Z750 and Z850? I am sure there are more."

A big thank you for the entertainment you provided over the last few days.....best of luck to you and the camera shops in your quest for your ideal camera!

**************************************************************
Packy

http://homepage.eircom.net/~vmax ; for my pic stuff

 

[packy]

If can't find a camera to satisfy you from the ones tried then I
sugest you go for something just a little more expensive like DSLR
a Nikon D50 or Canon 350 for instance.

One can always take up a new hobby.

......like selling them?....he's an expert by now!

**************************************************************
Packy

http://homepage.eircom.net/~vmax ; for my pic stuff

 

[Nickolai]

A big thank you for the entertainment you provided over the last
few days.....best of luck to you and the camera shops in your quest
for your ideal camera!

Well Packy, thank you too! You were the most persistent of all SD700 defenders, but your tactics were wrong...

Instead of providing proof that any of my statements were wrong or grossly exaggerated you kept going about what potentially a poor photographer I was and how (from your point of view) wrong I were the choices I made with my cameras.

As far as calling the F828 a dinosaur - well why would not you start a thread in a Sony forum and ask them to compare it to Canon Pro 1?

This all was big fun.

 

[*K]

The super-human tolerance & reserve shown by gail, Packy et al in the face of this sub-human, atavistic troll, Nick-O-Lie has been amazing! Congratulations to you all.

Lets all hope it acts like this in real life & cops one square where it deserves!
K
C A N O N S D 7 0 0 / I X U S 8 0 0
Formerly S D 3 0 0 / I X U S 4 0, F u j i S 6 0 2 Z. F u j i M X 1 7 0 0

 

[gail]

--
gail ~ http://www.pbase.com/gailb
My digital camera BLOGs: Canon SD700, S2 & A510; Panasonic FZ3, Nikon 5400
http://www.digicamhelp.com/digital-camera-blogs/index.htm

 

[Koosla]

Packy - I am still waiting for a convincing SD700 low light example
created with your steady hands.

And how should you know that it wasn't done with a tripod? Somehow, at this point I don't think that you'd trust Packy's proof -or anyone else's, for that matter. As a matter of fact, I've been able to take sharp pictures with the SD700 with as low as a 1 second shutter speed, hand-held of course; it was a test, so I deleted them (and I already can hear the "how convenient!" coming), but even if I took them again, would you actually accept them?

As a matter of fact, would you indeed care at all? If you've already returned the camera, or if you're mindset to do so no matter what, why should you care any longer whether the camera is as bad as you claim?

 

[eyeu]

There should be a new forum..something like "trolls who just want to argue" about anything!! Any suggestions? Exhausted? I am.


--
http://www.eyeu.smugmug.com

 

[packy]

Packy - I am still waiting for a convincing SD700 low light example
created with your steady hands.

And how should you know that it wasn't done with a tripod? Somehow,
at this point I don't think that you'd trust Packy's proof -or
anyone else's, for that matter. As a matter of fact, I've been able
to take sharp pictures with the SD700 with as low as a 1 second
shutter speed, hand-held of course; it was a test, so I deleted
them (and I already can hear the "how convenient!" coming), but
even if I took them again, would you actually accept them?

As a matter of fact, would you indeed care at all? If you've
already returned the camera, or if you're mindset to do so no
matter what, why should you care any longer whether the camera is
as bad as you claim?

Koosla...take no notice of this clown....I posted about five handheld extreme lowlight shots already from different cams and three of them were more difficult to handhold than with the SD700 because I had no IS and I still got acceptable results to say the least. And I also have a whole website of stuff at his disposal too. Yet this clown fails to shows us ONE PHOTO of his unacceptable results form the SD700....Yeah people got it right I guess...he is nothing but a troll.

*****************************************
Packy

http://homepage.eircom.net/~vmax ; for my pic stuff

 

[Koosla]

Koosla...take no notice of this clown....I posted about five
handheld extreme lowlight shots already from different cams and
three of them were more difficult to handhold than with the SD700
because I had no IS and I still got acceptable results to say the
least. And I also have a whole website of stuff at his disposal
too. Yet this clown fails to shows us ONE PHOTO of his unacceptable
results form the SD700....Yeah people got it right I guess...he is
nothing but a troll.

Maybe. But it never hurts to cut his every possible way of excusing himself out of reasoning his claims. So now he either accepts reasonable evidence to the contrary, or he pretty much conclusively proves to be the troll some of you already think he is.

The funny -or sad- thing is, nobody is actually claiming the SD700 to be a miracle camera; this thread has been only the last one in which all its real limitations have been but widely acknowledged: it's not a DSLR, it's not a Sony R1, it's not even a Fuji F30 in many aspects.

I, personally, only want to state that it IS a good camera which, properly used, can hold its own against many other, more specifically low-light oriented ones.

 

[gail]

Yes, special thanks to Packy, who I've come to respect very much for what he shares in these forums. He knows his stuff and backs up his experiences with images. I enjoy his posts because I learn from him.

The only reason I personally get involved in these types of threads is because I feel sorry for those who may be mislead by them. Some of us still attempt to offer balance.

As has been pointed out over, and over, and over again by many of us who own and like the SD700, it has its limitations and is not for everyone. But it does not deserve some of the drivel that I've seen too often regurgitated in these forums.

Now with the price of the SD700 dropping, the naysayers have one less thing to complain about.

--
gail ~ http://www.pbase.com/gailb
My digital camera BLOGs: Canon SD700, S2 & A510; Panasonic FZ3, Nikon 5400
http://www.digicamhelp.com/digital-camera-blogs/index.htm

 

[packy]

Well Packy, thank you too! You were the most persistent of all
SD700 defenders, but your tactics were wrong...

I have no particular interest really in defending the SD700. I would have defended ANY CAMERA from your stupidy in assessment that you should have got excellent weddings photos at exposures of 1/4 and 1/6s.

Instead of providing proof that any of my statements were wrong or
grossly exaggerated you kept going about what potentially a poor
photographer I was and how (from your point of view) wrong I were
the choices I made with my cameras.

Yes and No....NO....I never said you were a poor photographer unless I would have seen your work.....which incidently you still haven't done so and I presume you have chickened out. YES....What I said was that you lacked photographic knowledge as to understanding the problems you faced in your wedding shots or understanding (not just the SD) the cameras limitiations. I also came to the conclusion that maybe you are lacking maybe even more in some departments based on:

(1) Not knowing how EV compersation even works on a camera...come on man...do I need to continue here! This is camera basics...like baby stuff...... Here's a quote from you ["Are you saying, that if I moved the exposure compensation to -2 the camera would increase the shutter speed? Are you sure? If that's the case than not all is lost."].........jeez......give me a break dude...what did ye expect to happen if you moved it to -2??......the camera start to play a little melody or something??
(2) You thinking you should have got excellent photos at 1/4s

(3) The absurd notion that even if you had manual control, that you could have set the SS at 1/30s for a 1/4s exposure and everything would be dandy...which is utter rubbish and I should have given up after this.

(4) That if the camera had a "steady shot" it would allow you to underexposed which is again utter rubbish which you should do a google search...Sony introduced the "steady shot" feature in their cameras like the T30 and in steady shot the ISO is boosted to ISO1000 to TRY to get an acceptable SS. Unfortunately this is cr*p!....only the F30 would have acceptable high ISO at the moment for this. Yet again not knowing the camera didn't have this feature before you purchased just goes to show you hadn't a clue from the outset in what you where buying.

(5) Telling spoofs...you responded to a poster that ["The Casio P600 "I OWN" would blow the Ixus 800 out of the water"]...and in a post to me you said you SOLD IT (which=you don't own it=spoof). And second spoof is you sold it because it wasn't sharp and had poor color which for a camera means it was BASICALLY CR*P!!....which i would agree too as I owned one once, so it couldn't blow bubbles let alone the SD700 out of the water!!

(6) Your inability to pick a camera or knowing it's quirks before buying. Sending back nearly half a dozen cameras for little quirks and selling the rest tells me that either, all the camera companies are producing rubbish cameras at the moment or maybe it's something more deep rooted with you!....judging by the good reviews all the cameras are getting these days, and in experiencing and getting excellent results myself from these modern day cameras, then I'd say it's more deep rooted.

(8) You used the SD at a wedding without even understanding it...real bright!!.....but if you read the manual like you said here ["If I read all 150 pages of the manual I may have figured out where the battery indicator was and achieved somewhat better results, but this was not my point."].......so after a small read of the manual you would have gotten better results, eh?.... so what's your point then? That the SD700 should have known you haven't read the manual and made special adjustments especially for you.....imagine what you would get if you read a book on common sense!!

(9) You said that ["As far as non-existance of other compacts beyond F30 that would do a better job - how about Sony P200, Casio Z750 and Z850"]......here you had three cameras that you said where better than the SD700 for the job....yet you BOUGHT ALL THREE and sent them ALL BACK....Doh!....Enuff said!

(10) And finally I'll save the best for last because I thought this was a cracker!! you said "It puzzles me how the SD700 lobby consistently misses or avoids the main point and the key reason for the issue I experienced - no [manual] control over shutter speed. This is just silly."

....so the key issue for your problems was that the SD was missing MANUAL SHUTTER SPEED.....now ain't that just silly indeed....that you couldn't spot or know that the SD700 had no manual controls before you even bought it!!LOL....you really know your stuff man!!...I wouldn't like you to go shopping for me...good god!! Still though, can't see this a problem as ANY CAMERA in program auto would select the BEST shutter and aperture that the cameras can deliver for proper exposure.

As far as calling the F828 a dinosaur - well why would not you
start a thread in a Sony forum and ask them to compare it to Canon
Pro 1?

Don't think I'd get much response....this is 2006 ye know!!..... people have moved out of the dark ages and have moved on to smaller and better things!

*****************************************
Packy

http://homepage.eircom.net/~vmax ; for my pic stuff