Mixing SB-800 with older Nikon Flash (SB-28) wireless. What and how?

LongTimeNikonUser

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If the SB-800 is the master and the SB-28 is the slave, what kinds of control can I use? Nikon is totally silent on this topic, best as I can figure out. I guess they want you to replace all your older units with SB-800s.

With cables?

Wireless?

And what about using an old but still good Vivitar 285? No, I haven't measured the trigger voltage but the unit must be 15 years old, or more, but still works OK.

Reading the Nikon manual for the SB-800 is a great way for me to bring on a strong migraine attack!

--
LongTimeNikonUser
 
I use currently SB-26 units along with SB-800's. Your options are limited.

It'll have to be without TTL because the iTTL fires those several annoying preflashes that make people blink, or half-blink when used in master/remote style (a single SB-800 emits only one preflash that is hardly detectable)and will trigger any optical slave in sight before the actual exposure happens. Consequence is the remote old units may or may not have time to fire at the moment of exposure, when the "real" flash is emitted by the SB-800. And more, as the remotes fire along with the single or numerous preflashes, they fool the exposure because they fire at "real" power while the preflashes are firing at reduced power just for calculations. Mumbo-jumbo just like Nikon's flash manuals

iTTL advanced lighting system, whatever it's called, is an amazing system, agreed, but the multiple preflashes of the ALSystem are a real pain. That's only my opinion. I prefer to use my own judgment instead of letting the camera decide for me and expose every file with slight variations, when I do multiple speedlights set-ups.. I use iTTL only for cocktail-type pictures (I would if I did marriages too): it really does a fantastic job in constantly changing situations.

There are several strategies: you can use old flashes for background and effect, and use the SB-800's in master/remote to light the subject. First establish subject light using the SB-800's, lock the exposure by using FV (flash value): this has the effect of cancelling all preflashes, and for all practical purposes, the SB-800's become manual flashes of only one power setting: distance must be kept constant if one SB-800 is mounted on the camera. . Only then, turn on the old units and balance them with the locked FV SB-800 iTTL system. They can be set to auto or manual. Too much trouble IMHO. BTW, if you turn off the camera, FV is lost...

But you'll do fine if you avoid the iTTL preflashes. You can shoot manual flash or auto flash. First cancel preflashes on the SB-800's by choosing manual or auto A setting ON THE FLASH (not AA...it uses preflashes).

The rest is pretty easy: you can use all-manual, all auto A, or a mixture of both. Radio trigger, depending on system, probably will have the same limitations.

In short, whether you go all-SB-800, and use the most advanced system to date, with mentioned issues on people, or whether you accept some limitations and put those old units to good use. I have no problem going all-manual, as long as there are no extreme variations in ambient light when outside (passing clouds).
Hope this is comprehensible.
--
Jean Bernier

All photographs are only more or less credible illusions
 
jean bernier wrote:
(lots of good stuff snipped...)
In short, whether you go all-SB-800, and use the most advanced
system to date, with mentioned issues on people, or whether you
accept some limitations and put those old units to good use. I
have no problem going all-manual, as long as there are no extreme
variations in ambient light when outside (passing clouds).
Hope this is comprehensible.
My sincere thanks to both you gentlemen.

The OP's situation is very much the same as mine. Thanks for posting your question.

And thanks for the award winning response from Jean B -- very clear, very helpful.

[Now, where's that PRINT button........ :-) ]
--
Regards,
Baz
 
Thanks for the warm applause ...(LOL). You can see I'm not a big fan of the "Advanced Wireless System" or "Creative Lighting System" of Nikon's. (the two appellations can be read on the same page 15 of the manual: go figure !)

Not that it does'nt work: I've played a lot with it, adding several hundreds frames to my camera's counter, but it does not seem to integrate well with my style of work. Check these:

1) It's auto exposure. When I take the time to install stands and several speedlights, it's for an important shot and I want to have complete control of the exposure. I could use the AWS and after correcting what the camera decides using the camera or the flash controls, I'd lock the exposure using FV, and remember to keep the camera on at all time. Kind of moot. Only if the ambient light is prominent and unstable, do I have an advantage in using auto exposure.

2) If you reframe, by walking or by using a zoom, a TTL exposure system will redo calculations: uneven exposure frame to frame. If regular auto-exposure flash is used, exposure will be stable as long as you don't walk with a flash mounted to camera, while zooming will have no influence.

3) AWS uses at least three preflashes. Lag time is important: maybe the first preflash happens ¼ sec before exposure wich gives time to people to react and blink. All optical slaves will react to preflashes and fire prematurely. Even if the master is set to no-flash, or manual, it still emits preflashes. In short, this system resists mixing up with traditional flashes. As mentioned before, a single SB-800 fires only one quick preflash that can't be distinguished from the "real" flash. A radio-based system would have been sooooo much better.

4) AWS saves you some walking. If set-ups are complicated, speedlights outside behind a window, up a stair or up a long boom, etc, I can see an advantage. Also, if you're shooting a group and at the last minute decide to adjust one speedlight, you can do it from the tripod position, and people can enjoy seeing you typing away on the flash panel. Meanwhile, if they're just a few feet away, I'll walk. I'm not yet in a wheelchair.

Old units such as the SB-26 and others have almost everything in terms of features: zoom head, manual adjustments, auto exposure, tilting heads, built-in slaves, exposure corrections, etc...it's sad to let them go just because they are not iTTL compatible.
--
Jean Bernier

All photographs are only more or less credible illusions
 
jean bernier wrote:
(amongst more usage details)
Old units such as the SB-26 and others have almost everything in
terms of features: zoom head, manual adjustments, auto exposure,
tilting heads, built-in slaves, exposure corrections, etc...it's
sad to let them go just because they are not iTTL compatible.
Yes I know what you mean... in fact, I'm still waving the flag on behalf of Vivitar 285s...

http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1025&message=18366322
--
Regards,
Baz
 
Jean,

Thank you very much for your reply. I've snipped most of what you wrote, except the parts where I have a question.

I should start out by saying that I don't do too many groups of people, so the pre-flashes aren't an issue, as such. However, if I do want to mix SB-800s with older flashes, then the pre-flash is definitely an issue.

I'm trying to decide to go all SB-800, which means selling my SB-28 for whatever little I can get for it, OR, buying say 2 more SB-28s or SB-80DX or similar. For the cost of one SB-800, I can buy two SB-80DXs and have lots of money left. The nice thing about the SB-80DX isi the built-in SU-4.

I do a lot of photography "on location" but in situations where I often have to work quickly. In effect, look at the scene, drop some slaves where I think I need them, and GO!
set-ups.. I use iTTL only for cocktail-type pictures (I would if I
did marriages too): it really does a fantastic job in constantly
changing situations.
As I mentioned above, a lot of my flash work is in constantly changing situations or where I need to work quickly.
There are several strategies: you can use old flashes for
background and effect, and use the SB-800's in master/remote to
That is the heart of my question.
light the subject. First establish subject light using the
SB-800's, lock the exposure by using FV (flash value): this has
the effect of cancelling all preflashes, and for all practical
purposes, the SB-800's become manual flashes of only one power
setting: distance must be kept constant if one SB-800 is mounted
on the camera. . Only then, turn on the old units and balance
them with the locked FV SB-800 iTTL system. They can be set to
If I set them on auto, what happens as each flash tries to meter its own light, plus whatever light comes from the other flash?

Also, if I want to use the older flash to light up a background, (and let's say the Guide Number is the same for all units, just to keep things simple), is there some sort of "rule of thumb" I should use? That is, should each flash simply fire to get a "normal exposure" or should I dial back the background flash(es) to do only half-normal, perhaps?

I'm ignoring issues like fill-flash in daylight. My question is concerned mostly with indoor situations where the ambient light will be pretty low.
auto or manual. Too much trouble IMHO. BTW, if you turn off the
camera, FV is lost...
If I am going to do this, it has to be simple. In my typical situation, there isn't too much time for playing around, test shots, etc.
The rest is pretty easy: you can use all-manual, all auto A, or a
mixture of both.
My question, I think I have already said, is what rules of thumb should Ii use for choosing auto or manual?
In short, whether you go all-SB-800, and use the most advanced
system to date, with mentioned issues on people, or whether you
accept some limitations and put those old units to good use. I
I certainly want to. I can probably get some money on ebay for the SB-28, because it is in very good condition, but the Vivitar 285, well that has no real resale value.
--
Jean Bernier
Again, like the others, let me thank you very much for your clear explanations. Better than anything Nikon has written.

--
LongTimeNikonUser
 
Thanks for following up. Writing on this subject helps me reflect on my technique, refresh notions, and keep a clear mind. Might help some people as well.

snip: If I set them on auto, what happens as each flash tries to meter its own light, plus whatever light comes from the other flash?

That's what they'l do on auto, for sure. I was suggesting using them for backgroung and effect, such as rim lights, because you may like to use the Advanced Wireless System for main subject lighting, and the old flashes for the other "subject" wich is background. Because those areas are not or only dimlit lit by the front SB-800's subject lights, auto flashes will try to maintain a normal exposure for background by filling in whatever is required to complete the exposure. They should have very little influence on the subject front lighting.

snip: Also, if I want to use the older flash to light up a background, (and let's say the Guide Number is the same for all units, just to keep things simple), is there some sort of "rule of thumb" I should use? That is, should each flash simply fire to get a "normal exposure" or should I dial back the background flash(es) to do only half-normal, perhaps?

No rules. You may want to overexpose the background a little, so as to get a white seamless really white, than the auto flashes would be set so as to overexpose, with plus corrections or lower iso setting. Or you may want to make the background look a little subdued by underexposing it a little, by the way of a minus correction or higher iso setting, or in a more interesting way, lighting it selectively by using zoom heads and highlighting small areas in it.

If I am going to do this, it has to be simple. In my typical situation, there isn't too much time for playing around, test shots, etc.

Mixing systems is a little challenging at first, but once you have studied it, it helps to have a few basic strategies ready.

Example: a really quick group shot in a large conference room. My plan is to start with an iso of 200, two SB-26 at manual ½ pwr aimed at the white ceiling and a camera-mounted flash (any model) set at autoA for a normal exposure, so that I can move around and maintain correct exposure whithout much readjusting. This will produce an acceptable shot of a lighted group in a lighted room.

snip: The rest is pretty easy: you can use all-manual, all auto A, or a
mixture of both.
My question, I think I have already said, is what rules of thumb should Ii use for choosing auto or manual?

Do test shots in your house and a few typical locations and have scenarios ready for what works the best.
Chance favours the prepared mind.

Studio photographers like me, when they venture outside, will tend to use small flashes just like they're used to do with the strobes: all manual.

Automation, even the most sophisticated systems, require attention almost as much as when going manual. Even with iTTL multi-flashes systems, you still normally have to evaluate test shots, and type corrections on the master flash, instead of simply walking to each of the units. You may obtain the same excellent results maybe a little faster. Maybe. If there is zero time for even one test shot, then the automation may be Godsent! Automation really shines when in a social event you take a quick shot, then turn around 180° and take another shot of a completely different subject. In studio-type shooting on location, I only use it if prominent, recordable ambient light is constantly changing, or I have a flash mounted on the camera with me or the subject constantly changing distance.

There are "digital" slave triggers that will fire the mounted speedlight on a selected firing: these may be set to trigger on the third, fourth firing, therefore old units fire at the taking moment only. This takes care of the preflashes. These I have'nt a chance to study, but they seem to be an expensive solution. I'd would'nt bother.

Good luck.
JB

--
Jean Bernier

All photographs are only more or less credible illusions
 
Hope I'm not adding to confusion for some persons. These are only my personal opinion on mixing the old and the new systems. All the time, I'm assuming we're talking about using the iTTL recent cameras that are not compatible with the older TTL flashes.

I think the wireless system promises a lot, but in actual use, does not contribute so much. Some will swear by it, fine. But may I repeat, I fail to see how it may be a better approach than an all-manual approach in a studio type shooting on location (when optimal results are your target). 99% of studio photographers use manual strobes. Once they're set, they're set. They do not inter-influence, so as to create chaos. Therefore, old speedlights are perfectly fine for the job, they should not be laid to rest.

I usually avoid putting a flash on-camera, but instead on a stand if time allows, preferably with radio trigger, so I can move freely whithout altering the balance, just like in the studio.

I may add, with iTTL advanced wireless, no FV locked, the numerous preflashes are a waste of battery (and output) power: each and every shot uses several preflashes, because remotes are constantly "reminded" the setting chosen on the master, and each shot is reevaluated, wich may be detrimental, or may be useful, depending.

Note that in the days of old, when I started, flashes did not have zoom-tilting heads, auto exposure, TTL, repeat modes, beeping sounds, illuminated LCD panels, built-in slaves, sometimes even power and correction settings, certainly not wireless communication...must have some influence on my opinions.

If there is a valuable advice I gave, it's having proven basic scenarios for your typical shooting situations, and when it's well digested notions, then you can easily break those self-imposed rules and start the creative process.
--
Jean Bernier

All photographs are only more or less credible illusions
 
jean bernier wrote:
snipped
and each shot is
reevaluated, wich may be detrimental, or may be useful, depending.
That's what I thought. I can't see constant reevaluation leading to much consistency. Pulling them all into line in PP is a drag, if all shots in a set need slightly different treatment.
Note that in the days of old, when I started, flashes did not have
zoom-tilting heads, auto exposure, TTL, repeat modes, beeping
sounds, illuminated LCD panels, built-in slaves, sometimes even
power and correction settings, certainly not wireless
communication...must have some influence on my opinions.
I come from that same era. :-)
If there is a valuable advice I gave, it's having proven basic
scenarios for your typical shooting situations, and when it's well
digested notions, then you can easily break those self-imposed
rules and start the creative process.
Thanks Jean, for a most valuable overview. I hope it has been as useful to the OP as it has been to me.
--
Regards,
Baz
 
I'm using a Nikon D70 with an SB-600. I have found that recently I prefer using the SB-600 wirelessly off camera but in manual mode and controling the power from the camera menu in wireless Manual Mode.

Are there any of the older flashes that I can use in full manual mode that will trigger with the preflash from the D70? I'm thinking an SB-28 or SB-80 maybe? What is the diffrence between the two? Does either have an SU-4 mode so I could set the power on that flash and then have it trigger with the D70/SB-600 wirelessly? If so I could get a couple of them and have a portable lighting setup for relativly little. Thanks for any replies.

Chris Sweet
 
I'm using a Nikon D70 with an SB-600. I have found that recently I
prefer using the SB-600 wirelessly off camera but in manual mode
and controling the power from the camera menu in wireless Manual
Mode.

Are there any of the older flashes that I can use in full manual
mode that will trigger with the preflash from the D70?
All ordinary (and older) flashes that have a slave trigger built-in or added-on will fire when the D-70 emits preflashes: that is, BEFORE exposure. That's the heart of the problem. You have to find a way to cancel preflashes. Probably by using the built-in flash in manual.

The D-70 manual can be helpfull on this, although Nikon usually hires people who know how to write in cryptic language to write manuals. Seriously, translaters and writers are unfortunately not technical people, so they often lack the technical knowledge. I know a girl, graduate from the Sorbonne in Paris, who currently translates submarine manuals !!! She's doing her best, but does not have a clue what's she's writing about. !!!

I'm thinking
an SB-28 or SB-80 maybe? What is the diffrence between the two?
I'll leave this to others
Does either have an SU-4 mode so I could set the power on that
flash and then have it trigger with the D70/SB-600 wirelessly?
I have none of the equipment you're talking about, so I'm not an authority on these, but fact is, there is most certainly a way you can use any old fashioned flashes in manual configuration, even a potato masher that is 30 years old. SU-4 is not a priority. You can buy cheap optical slaves that do the same job as the SU-4 feature. And you do not need a master SU-4 unit to trigger a remote SU-4 unit: it will fire as soon as it sees any flash burst, just like any ordinary slave trigger. I sometimes use an SU-4 SB-800 in the studio that I hide somewhere in the set, and it is triggered by the studio strobes, and emits a confirmation beep wich is neat. If you use SU-4, I recommend SU-4 manual. SU-4 auto is very finicky: it'll fire non-stop, till it reaches full power when it sees it's own lighting ! Far from great design IMHO.
If
so I could get a couple of them and have a portable lighting setup
for relativly little.
You certainly can, but you'll probably lose TTL, wich may or may not be important to you.
Thanks for any replies.
Chris Sweet
--
Jean Bernier

All photographs are only more or less credible illusions
 
If I set the D70 to commander mode but Manual not TTL I wonder if it still uses preflashes? I know that the light emmited in commander mode is not supposed to contribute to the exposure but it in fact does ever so slightly so it might be able to trigger optical slaves if they are manually set indivdually on the flash itself.

Can anyone offer clarification on any of this? Which older Nikon flashes have an optical slave ability built in?

Chris
 
Commander mode: the flash always emit preflashes because it constantly sends orders to remotes, even if it does not contribute itself.

I was suggesting using just regular plain ordinary manual flash from your built-in, if it has manual flash capability, as the triggering source.

Not the master/remote or commander-mode variety. All off-camera flashes can then be slaved or SU-4-manually triggered.
--
Jean Bernier

All photographs are only more or less credible illusions
 
Jean,

Thanks for the clarification. I guess in that case it won't be a great solution for me. The sb-600 does not have built in optical slave ability so I would need to buy an optical slave shoe for it and possibly for the other flashes as well. It will probably add up to the cost of another SB-600.

Looks like I might just be better off with another sb-600 or maybe a SB-800. Still no way to make them output different power with a D70 as the commander. Thanks for taking the time to go through this for me.

Chris
 
Now I understand your original question: you were trying to remote-control older flashes with the D-70 built-in flash as a commander or master. No luck. The old flashes can't be remotely adjusted and will fire prematurely anyway. And if preflashes are cancelled, they will fire on correct time in manual setting, or autoA setting only: you have to walk to them one by one and adjust.

An extra SB-600 will set you up. A SB-800 has it's own master/remote controller, many more features, but I guess if you mount it on the camera, the built-in flash will have to stay unused.

For those who still are interested in building an all-manual lighting system, similar to using studio strobes, but portable and small, I might suggest buying several old units of only one model: it'll make things much simpler.

I'm not sure, but one site lists the SB-26 of 1995 ( I use several regularly, along with SB-800's), were the first Nikon Speedlight with a built-in slave. Use the slave switch in "s" position preferably. Later models may or may not have a slave, depending.
--
Jean Bernier

All photographs are only more or less credible illusions
 
I don't mind walking around and setting them manually but how can I get them to trip and still have my SB-600 trip as well?

If I have the commander D70 set to say 1/4 power manual that is what the SB-600 will do. If I FV lock that in will that get rid of the pre flashes? Then I can change the SB-600 power level from the camera and walk over to the other flash units?

Thanks agian for helping me work this out.

Chris
 
I don't mind walking around and setting them manually but how can I
get them to trip and still have my SB-600 trip as well?
Mixing the old system with the new is really mind boggling if the advanced wireless is used. Your SB-600 will not fire if you attempt to trigger it with other than a master or commander unit. An SB-800 will, if set to SU-4 wich is a little more than a simple slave trigger. The SB-600 does'nt have SU-4, I'm being told. But you could get one inexpensive slave trigger to mount it on: then it would be downgraded to the old system. I assume the SB-600 has an ordinary manual flash setting built-in, with 1/2, 1/4, 1/8, 1/16 th , and so on adjustments.
If I have the commander D70 set to say 1/4 power manual that is
what the SB-600 will do.
Let's be clear: the SB-600 is not in regular manual mode. It is in remote manual mode, wich means it is reminded on every shot, through preflashes, that it must fire at ¼ power manual.
If I FV lock that in will that get rid of
the pre flashes?
Yes. You must get rid of the preflashes because old units would otherwise fool the measurements by firing along with the preflashes, and if they're set to full power, would'nt even record on the shot a fraction of a second late, when the "real" firing occurs, cause they'll be busy recycling.

Then I can change the SB-600 power level from the
Too late. It's locked at ¼ power manual in your example.

I suggest going all-manual, or a mixture of manual units and regular autoA units: camera onboard flash at manual (no commander or master mode) if that's available. SB-600 at manual or autoA, if available, triggered by external slave. Old units at manual, or autoA, using internal or external slaves.

Or you can buy extra SB-600's if money is not a problem. Sad, but this thread was originally about using old and cheaper units, I hate to come up with this solution !
Hope this helps. Imagine trying this with film...

and walk over to the other flash units?
Thanks agian for helping me work this out.

Chris
--
Jean Bernier

All photographs are only more or less credible illusions
 
Thanks for following up. Writing on this subject helps me reflect
on my technique, refresh notions, and keep a clear mind. Might
help some people as well.

snip: If I set them on auto, what happens as each flash tries to
meter its own light, plus whatever light comes from the other flash?

That's what they'l do on auto, for sure. I was suggesting using
them for backgroung and effect, such as rim lights, because you may
like to use the Advanced Wireless System for main subject lighting,
and the old flashes for the other "subject" wich is background.
Because those areas are not or only dimlit lit by the front
SB-800's subject lights, auto flashes will try to maintain a normal
exposure for background by filling in whatever is required to
complete the exposure. They should have very little influence on
the subject front lighting.
Jean,

What you suggest above won't work. In order to mix older, non iTTL flashes with an SB-800 with wireless triggering, you have to turn off the CLS (iTTL) features on the SB-800 completely, and set it to purely manual. Otherwise the the preflashes from the SB-800 will trigger the other (auto) lights.

It IS possible to use an on-camera SB-800 or SB-600 in iTTL and other flashes on manual or auto, but you have to hard-wire all the remote flashes with PC sync cables. This works because the on-camera SB-800 fires its preflashes, determines the exposure, then fires it's main flash and triggers the sync connection at the right moment. When the other flashes are hard wired, they ignore the preflashes.

This last is only of questionable usefulness, since the iTTL metering doesn't allow for the extra light from the other flashes. One situation where I DO find this setup useful is in 2 flash handhled maco photography. I connect one flash with an SC-17 cable, and operate it in TTL mode. I connect another SB-28 with a sync cable, and set its power manually. I dial in about -1EV on the TTL flash, so by itself it will under-expose the picture. I then manually adjust the other flash until it adds the needed light for a proper exposure. This is useful because for handheld macro work, very small changes in flash-to-subject distance have a large effect on the exposure. The TTL flash adjusts for these changes.

Duncan C
--
dpreview and PBase supporter.



http://www.pbase.com/duncanc
 
Thanks for following up. Writing on this subject helps me reflect
on my technique, refresh notions, and keep a clear mind. Might
help some people as well.

snip: If I set them on auto, what happens as each flash tries to
meter its own light, plus whatever light comes from the other flash?

That's what they'l do on auto, for sure. I was suggesting using
them for backgroung and effect, such as rim lights, because you may
like to use the Advanced Wireless System for main subject lighting,
and the old flashes for the other "subject" wich is background.
Because those areas are not or only dimlit lit by the front
SB-800's subject lights, auto flashes will try to maintain a normal
exposure for background by filling in whatever is required to
complete the exposure. They should have very little influence on
the subject front lighting.
Jean,

What you suggest above won't work. In order to mix older, non iTTL
flashes with an SB-800 with wireless triggering, you have to turn
off the CLS (iTTL) features on the SB-800 completely, and set it to
purely manual. Otherwise the the preflashes from the SB-800 will
trigger the other (auto) lights.
No. I was suggesting using the iTTL for subject, then locking the advanced wireless by using FV. This cancels preflashes. Then complete the lighting by turning on the old units in order to light the background. IMHO that's too much trouble. I go all manual.
It IS possible to use an on-camera SB-800 or SB-600 in iTTL and
other flashes on manual or auto, but you have to hard-wire all the
remote flashes with PC sync cables. This works because the
on-camera SB-800 fires its preflashes, determines the exposure,
then fires it's main flash and triggers the sync connection at the
right moment. When the other flashes are hard wired, they ignore
the preflashes.
Correct. The pc outlet is only conductive at the moment of exposure. But we're trying to go wireless.
This last is only of questionable usefulness, since the iTTL
metering doesn't allow for the extra light from the other flashes.
One situation where I DO find this setup useful is in 2 flash
handhled maco photography. I connect one flash with an SC-17 cable,
and operate it in TTL mode. I connect another SB-28 with a sync
cable, and set its power manually. I dial in about -1EV on the TTL
flash, so by itself it will under-expose the picture. I then
manually adjust the other flash until it adds the needed light for
a proper exposure. This is useful because for handheld macro work,
very small changes in flash-to-subject distance have a large effect
on the exposure. The TTL flash adjusts for these changes.
Nice variation.

Cheers, it's Saturday JB
Duncan C
--
dpreview and PBase supporter.



http://www.pbase.com/duncanc
--
Jean Bernier

All photographs are only more or less credible illusions
 

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