Scanning 100 year old glass negatives

[Duncan Budd]

Anyone out there scanned any 100 year old 7"x5" glass negatives recently? Any hints and tips you could pass on?

I have been offered 50 family glass negs taken between approx 1890 and 1910. I'd like to digitise them for posterity as well as either make my own inkjet prints or take them to a pro shop for printing.

Can I just (gently) place them on my Epson flatbed? Or is this likely to damage either them or (less impoartantly) the scanner? They were described to me as being approx 2mm thick. I assume I would want them "image side down" for best quality?

All help gratefully accepted.

(Apparently one photo is a portrait taken in 1895 of a lady celebrating her 100th birthday. I wonder how many negatives still exist of humans born in the 18th Century? )

--
Regards,
Duncan

 

[stephenmelvin]

Anyone out there scanned any 100 year old 7"x5" glass negatives
recently? Any hints and tips you could pass on?

I had a big pile at one time, but this was at a time that all I could do with them was contact print them. This was around 1992 or so. But I handled them enough to gather how delicate they were.

I have been offered 50 family glass negs taken between approx 1890
and 1910. I'd like to digitise them for posterity as well as either
make my own inkjet prints or take them to a pro shop for printing.

Can I just (gently) place them on my Epson flatbed? Or is this
likely to damage either them or (less impoartantly) the scanner?

Does the flatbed have a transparency lid? I'm assuming that it does. This will probably work pretty well.

They were described to me as being approx 2mm thick. I assume I
would want them "image side down" for best quality?

They're probably a bit thicker than 2mm, but that's okay. And yes, face down. A couple of issues to be aware of. First off, these old negs could very well have stuff on them after so many years. I mean little pieces of sand or grit. So be extra careful when placing and removing them. You may consider putting something under one edge to help with lifting them, so you don't wind up sliding them across the glass.

You can clean the base (glass) side like any other piece of glass. I wouldn't try to clean the emulsion side, other than gently blowing or brushing off debris.

Another potential issue is Newton's rings. This can happen when placing negs on a flatbed scanner. I don't know whether a glass negative will suffer from Newton's rings. It's possible that it won't, and I suspect it won't. But it's something to look for.

http://www.fas.harvard.edu/~scdiroff/lds/LightOptics/NewtonsRings/NewtonsRings.html

If you're really concerned about damaging the negs, you might consider laying down a piece of transparent acetate (or something similar) on the scanner. This will really help protect the negs, and help you lift them back up. But it increases the odds of Newton's rings.

I highly recommend scanning in 16 bit mode, if your scanner software supports it. Negatives hold a ton of information, and a mere 256 grayscale levels won't be enough to play with.

Your other option to consider is using a macro lens and a light box to copy the negs with your dSLR (assuming you have one). I'm not sure there's any advantage to doing it this way, but it may give you a way to protect your negs better, as most light boxes have a plastic surface.

 

[Caoedhen]

I don't know if a scanner will work or not, depending on the negatives. The few that I have seen were very dark, and needed a backlight to really see them well. Most scanners can't backlight the object on the platen.

I copied them by placing them in a window, backlit with indirect sunlight. The colors were slightly off, but other than that it worked well. Of course the colors were slightly faded anyway... so the camera copied what was there.
--
Crime Scene Photography

 

[Theresa K]

the vast majority of flatbed scanners sold today have a light in the lid for transparencies. If yours does and you handle them carefully, it should work fine. I will say that the scanner software I have used results in pretty soft images, I have had to sharpen my scans quite a bit to get them to make good images.
--
Theresa Kelly
http://theresak.smugmug.com/
Oly E-3OO + some other stuff

Constructive criticism always welcome!

 

[Caoedhen]

Yes, some of the scanners do have light lids, for things like 35mm negatives. I do believe the original poster mentioned 5x7 glass. A bit larger than 35mm negatives, wouldn't you agree?

It actually is true. Imagine that!

--
Crime Scene Photography

 

[sangio]

Most flatbed scanners with film scanning capability, will have film holders for 35 mm, 120 and 4x5 negatives/transparencies.

My Epson 4990 will scan film up to 8x10 inches if it's placed directly on the glass plate. So scanning a 5x7 glass negative is certainly possible.

The only problem may be getting the scanner to focus on the emulsion. The film holders rasie the film above the glass plate and that's where the focus is set. You may have to use some thick paper, with the appropriate cutout window, to raise the glass negative above the scanners glass plate for proper focus.

cheers...sangio

 

[JR_Sprawls]

In addition to all the good information above, you should be aware that glass negs are often very contrasty and dense by today's standards. If it can handle the contrast a flat-bed scanner with transparency lid can give excellent results. Modern scanners work well with color negs or transparencies in which the image is made up of transparent dyes, but in older black and white negatives the image is made up of grains of silver metal, which can be virtually opaque to the scanner light source.

A few tips:

-- Watch the file sizes -- they can get huge at the higher resolution settings.

-- If you can't get good results in the negative scanning mode try scanning them as transparencies, the convert to positive in the computer.

-- Consider some type of paper frame or mask to prevent direct contact with the scanner glass. This will help protect both the negs and your scanner and also prevent Newton's rings. The loss in sharpness should be tiny, essentially zero in the final prints.

If you can't get good scans, try shooting copies with you camera, using a lightbox or even a window as someone suggested. The diffuse light from a box or window will often penetrate the silver negatives better than the light in the scanner.

--
J.R.

Somewhere south
of Amarillo

 

[Duncan Budd]

My thanks to everyone who replied and for all the excellent info. I will read my scanner manual (!) to see if it has a transparency light. I do have a DSLR and will also try that method.

I should receive the negs in about a month. (We're not trusting them to any 3rd party delivery agent, so we have to wait until we can arrange to meet and hand them over, and the current owner lives nearly 400 miles away).

I will post some results back here when I have them.

--
Regards,
Duncan

 

[Mr Fri]

I can feel your excitement. What a cool project.

I work at a photomask company where we make 6"x6"x1/4" glass negatives for the semiconductor industry. Our images are exposed with either a laser beam or an electron beam rather than focused white light. Our version is pretty much the same as 100 years ago except the metal is chrome and the lines are much, much, smaller. One thing we have in common is that the contrast with metal photomasks is very high. We need that in semiconductors to keep lines small. In 100 year old photography I think it was just the metallic chemistry available at the time.

I can give you a few suggestions:

1) Treat them like fine china about to crumble. You want to preserve anything that's left on the plate and not damage it any more than it may have been in the last 100 years. This means try new ideas slowly. And don't even think of cleaning off either the glass or absorber side without knowing what you're doing. I know from work it's very easy to touch a plate and make it scrap from a seemingly small mark on the surface. Perhaps you could talk to someone at a museum who restores this type of negative. I visited the Albert & Victoria museum in London a few years ago and they had a great display showing different types of photographic printing over the years. I'm sure someone there could tell you how to clean and print with them.

2) You could start taking images by holding it up to a window and taking a photo of it. I had good results with this method once using an x-ray negative. It was a cloudy day and the light was bright but not direct. This would give you something to play with in digital form and to print out for the family while you talk to museums about how to get a better quality print.

Go slowly and enjoy each step of the project the project.

Cheers

 

[Duncan Budd]

... now I just need to find time to digitise them! I'll post back when I have something worth showing.

--
Regards,
Duncan

 

[AusPhil]

Just about to venture down this road, so I thought I'd give this old thread a bump for some updates.

Intending on using Vue Scan & an Epson V800 Scanner.
6 1/2 x 4 1/2", which I believe might be "Half Plate" size.

Mostly interested in how to handle the contrast range of these old plates.

I recall from my film days using 5 different contrast grade papers & wonder how that's best dealt with digitally, preferably at the time of scanning as time for post processing is prohibitive.

Cheers.

 

[D Cox]

I scanned a few 10x8 inch glass negs on my Epson V750, with no problems. I put the negs face down on the glass and used the area guide (a flimsy plastic frame that comes with the scanner).

Provided the scanner glass is clean and you lower the neg gently into place there should be no problem with scratches.

 

[D Cox]

Just about to venture down this road, so I thought I'd give this old thread a bump for some updates.

Intending on using Vue Scan & an Epson V800 Scanner.
6 1/2 x 4 1/2", which I believe might be "Half Plate" size.

Mostly interested in how to handle the contrast range of these old plates.

Scan in 16-bit as suggested above, and adjust contrast in Photoshop.

I recall from my film days using 5 different contrast grade papers & wonder how that's best dealt with digitally, preferably at the time of scanning as time for post processing is prohibitive.

How many do you have to scan ?

The main thing will be to keep the original TIF files that come from the scanner, so that you can adjust contrast and spot out dust marks on the few negs that will be printed or shown on the web while leaving the whole set as an archive. The archive can be dipped into any time when some particular image is wanted.

One thing that speeds up rough processing is to use Adobe Camera Raw. You can view the images in Adobe Bridge, select maybe a dozen similar negs, click the Iris icon, and adjust them simultaneously in ACR. See Martin Evening's excellent books on Photoshop for details.

 

[JulesJ]

My thanks to everyone who replied and for all the excellent info. I will read my scanner manual (!) to see if it has a transparency light. I do have a DSLR and will also try that method.

I should receive the negs in about a month. (We're not trusting them to any 3rd party delivery agent, so we have to wait until we can arrange to meet and hand them over, and the current owner lives nearly 400 miles away).

I will post some results back here when I have them.

--
Regards,
Duncan

What is your scanner (make and Model). I have done exactly what you are enquiring about. I scanned about 80 of the quarter plate glass negs that my grandfather took on his Sanderson Hand Camera in the early 1900s. I* have an Epson V700 but any scanner that is able to scan negs or transparences should work. I cut out a mask that was a millimeter or two under the size of the plates and sat each on that which was on the glass of the scanner thus avoiding scratching the glass. it worked fine.

Here is an example.








Circa 1908 Gardener

 

[AusPhil]

Scan in 16-bit as suggested above, and adjust contrast in Photoshop.

Would prefer to avoid the time required in Photoshop if possible

How many do you have to scan ?

About 200 at a guess.

The main thing will be to keep the original TIF files that come from the scanner, so that you can adjust contrast and spot out dust marks on the few negs that will be printed or shown on the web while leaving the whole set as an archive. The archive can be dipped into any time when some particular image is wanted.

So you recommend scanning to TIFF in VueScan, not jpeg?

One thing that speeds up rough processing is to use Adobe Camera Raw. You can view the images in Adobe Bridge, select maybe a dozen similar negs, click the Iris icon, and adjust them simultaneously in ACR. See Martin Evening's excellent books on Photoshop for details.

 

[AusPhil]

What is your scanner (make and Model).

I have a Canon CS880F which I've done the 1/4 plates with.
Ordered an Epson V800 today to deal with the 1/2 plate?
4 1/2 x 6 1/2 at a guess.

Here is an example.

Great Result.
What level of dust removal did you use?
And what scanner?

 

[JulesJ]

What is your scanner (make and Model).

I have a Canon CS880F which I've done the 1/4 plates with.
Ordered an Epson V800 today to deal with the 1/2 plate?
4 1/2 x 6 1/2 at a guess.

Here is an example.

Great Result.
What level of dust removal did you use?
And what scanner?

I don't use any dust removal at the scan level. Just makes sure each glass plate is blow dusted, and the same for the glass of the scanner and then levels and curves.

Then into Photoshop and spot the few bits of dust/repair and levels and curves again if needed. I don't think i spotted the file that I loaded here at all (yet)!

I am not a fan of auto dust removal and can do a better job in PS.

--
Phil
Canon 7DII, 50D, G12, T-90, T-70, A-1

 

[JulesJ]

Just about to venture down this road, so I thought I'd give this old thread a bump for some updates.

Intending on using Vue Scan & an Epson V800 Scanner.
6 1/2 x 4 1/2", which I believe might be "Half Plate" size.

Mostly interested in how to handle the contrast range of these old plates.

Well you just play with levels and curves until it looks how you want it to look!

I recall from my film days using 5 different contrast grade papers & wonder how that's best dealt with digitally, preferably at the time of scanning as time for post processing is prohibitive.

Cheers.

--
Phil
Canon 7DII, 50D, G12, T-90, T-70, A-1

 

[JulesJ]

Scan in 16-bit as suggested above, and adjust contrast in Photoshop.

Would prefer to avoid the time required in Photoshop if possible

How many do you have to scan ?

About 200 at a guess.

The main thing will be to keep the original TIF files that come from the scanner, so that you can adjust contrast and spot out dust marks on the few negs that will be printed or shown on the web while leaving the whole set as an archive. The archive can be dipped into any time when some particular image is wanted.

So you recommend scanning to TIFF in VueScan, not jpeg?

jpgs are only for mailing or web. Always use tif or psd. That's my rule and I've always stuck to it.

One thing that speeds up rough processing is to use Adobe Camera Raw. You can view the images in Adobe Bridge, select maybe a dozen similar negs, click the Iris icon, and adjust them simultaneously in ACR. See Martin Evening's excellent books on Photoshop for details.

--
Phil
Canon 7DII, 50D, G12, T-90, T-70, A-1

 

[Aneemal33]

My thanks to everyone who replied and for all the excellent info. I will read my scanner manual (!) to see if it has a transparency light. I do have a DSLR and will also try that method.

I should receive the negs in about a month. (We're not trusting them to any 3rd party delivery agent, so we have to wait until we can arrange to meet and hand them over, and the current owner lives nearly 400 miles away).

I will post some results back here when I have them.

--
Regards,
Duncan

What is your scanner (make and Model). I have done exactly what you are enquiring about. I scanned about 80 of the quarter plate glass negs that my grandfather took on his Sanderson Hand Camera in the early 1900s. I* have an Epson V700 but any scanner that is able to scan negs or transparences should work. I cut out a mask that was a millimeter or two under the size of the plates and sat each on that which was on the glass of the scanner thus avoiding scratching the glass. it worked fine.

Here is an example.

0 Circa 1908 Gardener

Hi! I am new to this forum but think it will be a great resource as I embark on my new "project".

Our family owned and operated a photography business from 1907 through 2009. In that time the business accumulate thousands of negatives - many of which are 8X10 and glass plate. I am not in possession of these and am beginning the task of digitizing them.

I have an Epson V700 which I bought for the task and so far have had good success. I took an 11x14 photo matt with an 8x10 opening and altered it to work as a film holder for the negatives - both glass plate and celluloid. so far it has worked very well.

I looked into wet mounting , etc... but frankly the sheer volume of the collection does not afford the time needed to use this method. I need to get a decent scan for archiving and preservation and I need to get it done before I am too old to lift the negatives. (I'm 52).

I will post some of the resulting scans as I go along if anyone is interested. I do appreciate all the advise on this forum. It has been a great help to allow me to tweak some settings, etc. For example, I have just started the project and was scanning to a jpeg. I will now continue using a tif format for the raw scans. Storage is not a concern since you can buy a multi terabyte hard drive now for under $100. That will hold a lot of images. I also plan to periodically dump batches on to DVD or the like as back ups.

Many of the negatives were taken using the camera pictured below. It was used until the shop was closed in 2009.




Eastman Kodak Century Camera