i dont understand the edge softness on FF

It's always been there, but people printed 12x18 off their 35mm once in a blue moon. Now everyone goes to 100% in Photoshop on nearly every "keeper" and sees the emperor's new clothes.

The angle-of-incidence-makes-it-soft BS is just that, BS. On an SLR the angle of incidence maxes out at about 28mm--they have to stop getting closer to miss the mirror--past that the lenses just keep getting more and more retrofocus. Which does mean softer corners, but blame it on retrofocus SLR designs, not digital.

With individual microlenses you're not going to have resolution killing problems anyway. What you will get is vignetting, but that's not related to softness. Even here it's not all the sensors fault, wide lenses naturally have some falloff.

The absolute worst case out there for angle of incidence---the 12mm Voigtlander on the Epson RD-1--hasn't been reported as having sharpness issues in the corners. It does have a problem with vignetting, but this is a lens that needed a center filter on FF anyway. Taking it digital only made the issue worse.

It's not like you need to "design for digital" to get sharp wide corners on FF--my Leica 19/2.8 has glorious corners. You just have to care about it when you design the lens. Canon/Nikon/etc. couldn't afford the luxury of fixing something no one would notice when designing $400 wide primes (and I'm pretty sure ALL their wide primes are pre-digital designs). Leica and Contax, working with 5-7 times the money (and no AF) could afford the extra elements and tighter tolerances necessary to get it right.

Retrofocus ultrawides? This is just a hard, hard, hard thing to do. Canon's $1700 14/2.8 is mediocre, and is better than most of the competition, on film or digital. Leica's 15/2.8 appears to be the sole standout, but for $7k, yeah, you'd expect they did whatever they had to to get it right. It's worth noting that Leica teamed with Schneider to do the 15/2.8 because they were very dissatisfied with the 15/3.5 they were sourcing from Zeiss, and even that was both much better and much more expensive than the Canon. But take away the retrofocus requirement, and my Voigtlander 12mm for $500 is wider and at least as sharp in the corners. The 16/8 Contax Hologon for the G2 is miles ahead.
 
Awesome resolution corner/centre , from 2.8 all the way to 16. You would'nt say FF has to be soft at the corner. That costs a bundle, and the noise performance is lousy, but that's another story. Anyway if are not satisfied with Canon's 17-40 2.8, Sigma & Tamron could be the alternative. Let's wait for the tests, instead of hasty conclusions.
 
Dear friend, I don't know your experience, but what I mean and tested directly is that also a FF 16mp DSII doesn't reach my expectations for landscape photos particularly at the borders, sure not much better than a 20D and not so to justify the extra cost.

my personal test http://www.pbase.com/plspezza/tests

Show me your full size landscape 12 or 16mp shot at the borders stating the contrary!

For the tele 1.6x factor: do you really think that a 8mp crop from a 16mp file gives you the same sharpness of a native 8mp? try it for yourself.. and think with your one and half functioning brain if anybody agrees with you that a larger pixel has the same noise of a little one

--
Pier Luigi
http://www.pbase.com \plspezza
I own both Nikon & Canon
 
Awesome resolution corner/centre , from 2.8 all the way to 16. You
would'nt say FF has to be soft at the corner. That costs a bundle,
and the noise performance is lousy, but that's another story.
Anyway if are not satisfied with Canon's 17-40 2.8, Sigma & Tamron
could be the alternative. Let's wait for the tests, instead of
hasty conclusions.
What does a 90mm on 1.37x have to do with wides on FF?

The DMR is 1.37x, not FF, and nobody is complaining about tele designs anyway. My Canon 135/2--roughly the same field of view as 90 on 1.37.--has great corner sharpness.
 
and give you 1.6x for teles!
Wrong again, as has been accepted by anyone with at least half a
functioning brain.
How is it wrong? Greater pixel density=greater reach for a given lens and required final pixel count.

Now, if you have the same pixel density between a crop sensor and an FF sensor, then, yeah, cropping the FF would be exactly the same as shooting the smaller sensor, but most FF vs. crop comparisons this isn't the case, especially the one that matters most, 1dsII vs. D2X.
 
You must be right. I checked more carefully and couldn't find any technical linking and explanation of indicent angle and corner softness but only vignetting. Don't know where I got that piece of mis-info from. My apology...

I believe you. The corner softness must be there with the lenses from the beginning, be it film or sensor. Just that we're much more critical than before. Indeed most good classic lenses I tried on DSLR performed very well (none were really wide- such as 28mm though).
It's always been there, but people printed 12x18 off their 35mm
once in a blue moon. Now everyone goes to 100% in Photoshop on
nearly every "keeper" and sees the emperor's new clothes.

The angle-of-incidence-makes-it-soft BS is just that, BS. On an SLR
the angle of incidence maxes out at about 28mm--they have to stop
getting closer to miss the mirror--past that the lenses just keep
getting more and more retrofocus. Which does mean softer corners,
but blame it on retrofocus SLR designs, not digital.

With individual microlenses you're not going to have resolution
killing problems anyway. What you will get is vignetting, but
that's not related to softness. Even here it's not all the sensors
fault, wide lenses naturally have some falloff.

The absolute worst case out there for angle of incidence---the 12mm
Voigtlander on the Epson RD-1--hasn't been reported as having
sharpness issues in the corners. It does have a problem with
vignetting, but this is a lens that needed a center filter on FF
anyway. Taking it digital only made the issue worse.

It's not like you need to "design for digital" to get sharp wide
corners on FF--my Leica 19/2.8 has glorious corners. You just have
to care about it when you design the lens. Canon/Nikon/etc.
couldn't afford the luxury of fixing something no one would notice
when designing $400 wide primes (and I'm pretty sure ALL their wide
primes are pre-digital designs). Leica and Contax, working with 5-7
times the money (and no AF) could afford the extra elements and
tighter tolerances necessary to get it right.

Retrofocus ultrawides? This is just a hard, hard, hard thing to do.
Canon's $1700 14/2.8 is mediocre, and is better than most of the
competition, on film or digital. Leica's 15/2.8 appears to be the
sole standout, but for $7k, yeah, you'd expect they did whatever
they had to to get it right. It's worth noting that Leica teamed
with Schneider to do the 15/2.8 because they were very dissatisfied
with the 15/3.5 they were sourcing from Zeiss, and even that was
both much better and much more expensive than the Canon. But take
away the retrofocus requirement, and my Voigtlander 12mm for $500
is wider and at least as sharp in the corners. The 16/8 Contax
Hologon for the G2 is miles ahead.
 
The Leica back is FF. I agreed the 90mm is not wa, but their 28-90 tested out well too, just not that awesome. And again, the noise is pitiful.
 
Generally speaking, there's an inverse relationship between photography skill and obsession with technical minutia. The posters who complain loudest are the ones who’d benefit most from just getting out and taking pictures (and then scrutinizing their results for artistic merit rather than equipment deficiencies).

Gary Hart
http://www.eloquentimages.com
 
First, Pier writes...:
I agree: APS sensors are better for wide
and give you 1.6x for teles!
the only lack is more noise (relatively)
...to which I responded "wrong, wrong and wrong" with some additional comments.

Now, Pier writes...
...what I mean and
tested directly is that also a FF 16mp DSII doesn't reach my
expectations for landscape photos particularly at the borders...
It appears that you can't defend your original misguided statements so you've abandoned them and have veered off in a new direction. Unfortunately, I don't have the time or desire to try and figure out what you really "mean" with each new post, so now you and your expectations are on your own.
 
and give you 1.6x for teles!
Wrong again, as has been accepted by anyone with at least half a
functioning brain.
How is it wrong? Greater pixel density=greater reach for a given
lens and required final pixel count.

Now, if you have the same pixel density between a crop sensor and
an FF sensor, then, yeah, cropping the FF would be exactly the same
as shooting the smaller sensor, but most FF vs. crop comparisons
this isn't the case, especially the one that matters most, 1dsII
vs. D2X.
Blah blah blah. The original (mistaken) statement was that APS sensors "give you 1.6x for teles!"

They do not. Here's a quote from Nikon;

“Note: Picture angle approximately 1.5x lens focal length. Lens’ angle of view does not change; lens’ perspective and reproduction ratio at a given distance and aperture is identical to when the lens is used on a 35mm SLR; the difference in viewing is a result of the smaller dimensions of the CCD compared to that of 35mm film. In effect, the image is cropped according to the CCD format.”

You'll notice, if you can read, that in the end the "effect" is that "the image is cropped." There is no increased reach ("reproduction ratio at a given distance and aperture is identical to when the lens is used on a 35mm SLR).
How is it wrong?
THAT is how it's wrong, and no amount of misguided verbal gymnastics and pixel peeping ("required final pixel count"? Ludicrous.) will make it right.

Now, if you want to dispute the point further, take it up with Nikon as I don't argue with dogs, children, or pixel-peeping free-lunch extra-reachers.
 
With reference to prints from 35mm negatives, elay612 wrote;
And Steven Noyes wrote;
No you hadn't
Maybe dominique will explain to the class how he takes an image with a 3:2 aspect ratio and turns it into an 8x10 without distortion and without cropping at least two of the corners.
 
..besserwisser.

of cours your almighty quote is technically perfect, but in REAl life I dare to state that APS sized sensor gives you a 1.5 teleconverter "effect" in field of view, which in ANY PRACTICAL SENSE is a good thing if you are shooting something that reguires "reach". (birds, sports, etc...). I don´t so it is negative for me, (I'd prefer FF) but many find it useful and practical.

juuso
--
http://www.pbase.com/juuso
 
probably because with 35mm most people had 6x4 or 7x5 prints, now
with digital people zoom in to 100% on their monitor looking for
imperfections which have always been there but never noticed.
This is it. Well said. Enough already. Its a bad sample for a couple of other reasons and Canon shouldn't have put this sample up because all the pixel peepers are just going to jump all over it. The Landscape Style Mode on the 5 D is for the JPEG crowd who want stuff that looks like P&S right out of the camera. I got this from a Canon rep who was delivering the new brochures on the 5D to my local camera store yesterday. Sure, the 17-40 won't stand up to the kind of scrutiny it will get on this forum. Few lenses will. Do you think that that Canon has suddenly forgotten how to make sensors? I don't think so.

By the way, just for fun, the rep also said that the 5D was for wedding photographers! The 1DMk2 is for sports and the 1DSM2 is for the Hasselblad crowd. Now you know! Deep thinking, eh?
Cheers,
--
Wendell
http://www.wendellworld.com/PhotoGallery/WendellRiderPhotography.html
 
...your English is better than my Dutch.
..besserwisser.
I'm offended (I think)
of cours your almighty quote is technically perfect, but in REAl
life I dare to state that APS sized sensor gives you a 1.5
teleconverter "effect" in field of view, which in ANY PRACTICAL
SENSE is a good thing if you are shooting something that reguires
"reach". (birds, sports, etc...). I don´t so it is negative for me.
Same old baloney. Some goofball shoots off his mouth with wrongheaded nonsense, someone else (me, in this case) corrects him, and then the goofball gets all huffy and says something like "of cours your almighty quote is technically perfect, but in REAl life..."
...many find it useful and practical.
In "REAl life" I know "many" who "find it useful and practical" to think of the Earth as flat. That doesn't make it so.

Thank you for admitting that my response was "technically perfect". The "1.5 teleconverter effect" exists only in the feeble minds of the gullible few who keep falling for the same old sucker bait.
 
suits you, fine. But to stomp your feet like that over something this obvious makes you appear as a person of very little people skills.

Juuso,

(it's Finnish, by the way)
--
http://www.pbase.com/juuso
 
Wrong, Leica back has 1.37 crop factor.
Jarek
The Leica back is FF. I agreed the 90mm is not wa, but their 28-90
tested out well too, just not that awesome. And again, the noise is
pitiful.
 

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