Will there ever be a true "PRO-sumer" ???

[Fish Chris]

I was reading though Fuji's press release for the S9K and I see where even Fuji will only go so far as to call this camera, an "Advanced Amateur Model ".....

Where in the heck did the term "pro-sumer" come from anyway ? I mean, I would think that this should stand for "proffessional consumer".... No ? So who makes this proffessional consumer camera ? I sure haven't found it.

So, is there anyone here who thinks there would not be a market for a true, high end, fixed lens camera ? One with a nice "BIG" sensor, like the ones found in a DSLR ? With super low noise ? With IS ? With pro glass ? with a 15X zoom ?

I hear a "lot" of proffessionals who although they might own several pro-level SLR's, still carry a fixed lens camera as well. It seems to me that there should be enough guys like this (and a few guys like myself) who would pay $1000 or maybe even a little more, for a true "proffessional fixed lens camera".

Anyway, as it stands, most guys will tell you that if you want to take a technically "close to perfect" shot, you need to use an SLR...... and with where the technology stands at the moment, I think those guys would mostly be right (as much as I hate to say it..... as I would way rather use a fixed lens camera) but will it really always have to be this way ???

Your thoughts,
Thank you,
Fish

--

You don't have to be a great photographer. Just put yourself in the right spots, at the right times, and take a lot of shots. Some will enevitably turn out great !

 

[stefaan]

What is beyond me is why people who own 35mm lenses (like me) are eager and willing to switch to new 'digital' lenses (when there actually is no such thing).
I am reluctant to make the move to a D-SLR because of this fact alone.
This is insane marketing logic.
Also, a PRO-sumer should be (35mm-like) full frame sized.

The small sensors (even APS-C sized IMO) take away a BIG advantage of digital photography: VERY high ISO pics of great quality.

To me anything smaller than even APS sized can hardly be called PRO-sumer (DSLR or not).

My opinion: I might as well skip this technological phase and go for a small- sensor S9500 or similar, while waiting for a true D-SLR.

 

[tdkd13]

Responses in text for clarity:

I was reading though Fuji's press release for the S9K and I see
where even Fuji will only go so far as to call this camera, an
"Advanced Amateur Model ".....

Where in the heck did the term "pro-sumer" come from anyway ? I
mean, I would think that this should stand for "proffessional
consumer".... No ? So who makes this proffessional consumer camera
? I sure haven't found it.

I believe the term was coined by enthusiasts much like you and me. I don't recall any camera company using the term.

So, is there anyone here who thinks there would not be a market for
a true, high end, fixed lens camera ? One with a nice "BIG" sensor,
like the ones found in a DSLR ? With super low noise ? With IS ?
With pro glass ? with a 15X zoom ?

Here is where physics places limitations on what is possible, the larger the sensor, the larger the hunk of glass called a lens must be to focus across the entire sensor, and you want a 15X zoom range so now you are looking at about 6-8 lbs of glass, and a foot or so long as a fixed lens, (meaning it DOESNT come off ever) How many places are you going to tote that thing around. Now if you want that lens to be fast enough to be usable in more than ultra sunny conditions you are now looking at even more glass and it will be about the size of a volleyball on the far end. Probably cost about $4,000 as well or more.

I hear a "lot" of proffessionals who although they might own
several pro-level SLR's, still carry a fixed lens camera as well.
It seems to me that there should be enough guys like this (and a
few guys like myself) who would pay $1000 or maybe even a little
more, for a true "proffessional fixed lens camera".

Why the insistance on it being a fixed lens? I mean what you are describing is that you want a DSLR that you dont have to change lenses on, why not simply buy a DSLR and the lens you want and epoxy that mutha on there, that should do it.
Man its nice when it all works out nice like this huh.

Take care Fish, Ted

Anyway, as it stands, most guys will tell you that if you want to
take a technically "close to perfect" shot, you need to use an
SLR...... and with where the technology stands at the moment, I
think those guys would mostly be right (as much as I hate to say
it..... as I would way rather use a fixed lens camera) but will it
really always have to be this way ???

Your thoughts,
Thank you,
Fish

--
You don't have to be a great photographer. Just put yourself in the
right spots, at the right times, and take a lot of shots. Some will
enevitably turn out great !

 

[tdkd13]

Again, responses in text:

What is beyond me is why people who own 35mm lenses (like me) are
eager and willing to switch to new 'digital' lenses (when there
actually is no such thing).

You probably already know this but what they are now calling "digital" lenses are simply lenses not capable of filling a 36mm x 24mm focal plane. These lenses are gaining in poularity simply because they are smaller, lighter and cheaper than full frame lenses. That said

I am reluctant to make the move to a D-SLR because of this fact alone.
This is insane marketing logic.
Also, a PRO-sumer should be (35mm-like) full frame sized.
The small sensors (even APS-C sized IMO) take away a BIG advantage
of digital photography: VERY high ISO pics of great quality.
To me anything smaller than even APS sized can hardly be called
PRO-sumer (DSLR or not).

That leaves you with only a few options, Canon 1DS at $7,000 without lens or the Kodac DCS SLR/c or DCS SLR/n at about $4500 body only. There you have your true D-SLR's no need to wait now is there
Take care, Ted

My opinion: I might as well skip this technological phase and go
for a small- sensor S9500 or similar, while waiting for a true
D-SLR.

 

[Fish Chris]

I'm not sure I understand..... There are several 12X digicams out there..... and whether it works well or not, remains to be seen, but Samsung thinks they have came up with a 15X already ???

Secondly, I know I had said > a fixed lens camera with a nice "BIG" sensor......

Then that old thing pops back into my head about what guys were saying 40 years ago about computers > Well, to have any kind of real computing power, it will cost millions of dollars, and be the size of a house

So why not a smaller sensor, that is as clean, or cleaner than what we have now ??? Maybe with todays technology this is still impossible..... but how about tomorrow ?

Late for work now, but if you would like, I'll be glad to go over all of the reasons I dislike DSLR's later....

Peace,
Fish
--

You don't have to be a great photographer. Just put yourself in the right spots, at the right times, and take a lot of shots. Some will enevitably turn out great !

 

[djprov]

Pro-sumer what non-sense. Why spend so much time and energy feeding off what the marketing geeks are calling things. I mean professional would indicate one is being paid to do something very well. Sumer??? What garbage is that some college educated cr*p thrown out there to pidgeon hole a bunch of product... I guess. I know one thing for sure I did not get paid to shop for my pro-sumer camera .

Hey Fish, it's like a painter (artist) has a budle of different brushes in the studio all to create nice art. It just makes life easier to have many brushes to choose.

Capitalism aint it great...
dp

--

'And those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music'
Friedrich Welhelm Nietzche

http://www.pbase.com/djprov

 

[tdkd13]

Well, the sensor size is the key here, if you are willing to go with a small sensor than yes you can have what you want. Your original post mentioned a large sensor like a DSLR so that is what I based the physics on.

Now, you are probably correct in assuming that technology will advance and that soon we will be seeing cleaner smaller sensors, no doubt about it I would think. You also will probably see different lens materials made from plastics with excellant optical properties that are very light.

We may see jetpacks, cars that can go under water, robots named Rosie that act as our maids etc. But unitl I get a job at Cogswell cogs or Spacely sprockets I will be forced to live in this imperfect world bound to the laws of physics we have now.

I remember your recent forray into the DSLR world, and its cool to march to your own drummer. No need to explain your reasoning. I am sure that before too long someone will come out with the perfect camera for you. This S9000 might just be it, its a little short zoom wise for your needs but it seems to have several advances that the S602/S7000 users have been asking for.
Take care, Ted

 

[Jeffrey Piter]

I was reading though Fuji's press release for the S9K and I see
where even Fuji will only go so far as to call this camera, an
"Advanced Amateur Model ".....

What's wrong with that, at least it means something.

Consumer Professional

everyone combines the second part of one with first part of the other and gets Prosumer. What does it really mean except ADVANCED AMATEUR.

I propose another combination that really does have meaning for most of us even when we don't choose to use it.

CONFESSIONAL
That's when we admit that the camera we want can't do everything.

You want an easy to handle camera with a fast lens, but then you complain the sensor is too small. Make the sensor bigger and the whole camera has to be bigger for same f stop and equivalent focal length so it's no longer easy to handle.

 

[Jensi]

Well the word "Prosumer" really makes no sense, because the professional in the word implies that you get paid to make photos.

But:

The use of the word "Professionel" in our world doesn't have to do anything with what the word really means.

It just used to imply that something is better same something in the "consumer" range... And "Prosumer" seems to be some shemale in the middle... ah, it's all marketing blabla anyway...

And btw. I would like a cam that fits ergonomically in my hand, can be folded into my pocket, has just the right resolution for the pictures I take, has no noise up to iso ... 12800 and ... well something that doesn't exist yet but maybe it will in a few years.

And I don't care how big the sensor will be !!!

 

[Neil A. Viglione]

Chris,

I believe that the sensors already exist but are not very econimical. You might see them in medical imaging devices etc that all seem to carry a 15 to 50 thousand dollar price tag. Someday......

Having the camera that I can afford today that does most/many/some of the things that I want is still better than having nothing at all. If the $700? S9000 turns out to be the next step closer to the dream then great we have made some progress and have something to celebrate.

Maybe it just time to shut down the computer for a while and be gone fishing.

Your photo's always seem to leave me whistfull for my old Ipswitch Hi-Liner that we affectionally christened the Idiots Delight. What else would you call a 30 year old 18 foot wooden boat with the original 35hp Evenrude taken out off the North Atlantic coast.

Enjoy what ya got, upgrade when it make sense to you and keep the pictures coming.

Best Regards,

Neil

 

[stefaan]

Thx for taking my response seriously (as it was not meant as a joke).

I waited this long (still using film/slides and SLRs & seperate lenses for most of my photography) mostly because of these arguments.

 

[Mister Mantis]

Why the insistance on it being a fixed lens? I mean what you are
describing is that you want a DSLR that you dont have to change
lenses on, why not simply buy a DSLR and the lens you want and
epoxy that mutha on there, that should do it.

Hehehehe.... you hit the nail on the head.

FishChris actually got "spooked" by a DSLR setup when he jumped
on a Canon Rebel, and his image-quality factor did not improve.
He did not have that "instant-gratification", so he returned the Rebel.
He is currently using a Fuji S7000, but he would like a more powerful
unit.
As serious as he is about photography.... he needs to just quit
complaining about DSLR and get himself another one!
A mutual friend of ours, ( Stevon ), just moved from a Rebel to
the Rebel XT, and he is loving it.
I think FishChris just needs to get an XT, and some good wildlife
lenses!
He's stalling.... and trying to talk himself out of it... but in the end...
it will catch up with him.
Hehehehe!

D-S-L-R..... surrender to the dark side!

~ Mr. Mantis ~
( Canon Rebel XT user )
--

 

[Ben Herrmann]

First of all, I always enjoy reading your posts and this one IMO, hits the nail on the head.

I love shooting with all types of digital cameras and God knows I've owned and shot with over 30 different models over the past 4 years. And although I personally love the flexibilities and increased image quality that you achieve with DSLR's and their accessories, I still am searching for that "Prosumer" digicam that enables me to (in a fairly compact package) achieve similar results as a DSLR.

At this stage of the game there are few (if any) cameras that meet that designation - but with the advances in technology that are occurring (if you want to call them advances), I see no takers of that title.

When the Canon Pro 1, Olympus C8080, Konica A-1/A2, etc., were released, I figured that it was an auspicious beginning and that it wouldn't be long before manufacturers finally produced that all in one model that would cause many of us to leave our DSLR's at home on most occasions. But alas, that hasn't occurred yet.

I want a prosumer camera (like the C8080 which I own and hold dearly) that is built like a tank, is reasonably compact (well, compact is in the eye of the user), achieves much flexibility, and gives us an options set similar to DSLR's. But most of all, it should give us DSLR image quality. And I'll be one that says I wouldn't mind spending $1000 USD on a model like that.

As for the S9000 and E900, I don't know what to think. I mean to tell you, I would have looked at it slightly differently if Fuji used a 2/3" sensor design to accommodate those 9 MP (and yes, I realize size equates with many other variables of design here) as opposed to that very small 1/1.6" CCD (can you imagine the extremely small size of those photosites...and then to say it will give DSLR's a run for their money...geeezzzz).

So yes Chris, where in the hell are these "Prosumer Digicams" when you really need them.

And folks, I know for a fact that most of you out there quietly (secretly) lust for an all in one model that achieves the results we all crave - even at high ISO's, with little to negligible noise.

Ben

 

[Mister Mantis]

Secondly, I know I had said > a fixed lens camera with a nice "BIG"
sensor......
sensor, is because I have listened to so many guys saying that this
is what was required to produce a low noise image..... and Lord
knows I hate noise.

We ALL hate noisy images... and unfortunately, a larger sensor
is the way to reduce image-noise while offering high ISO capability.

So why not a smaller sensor, that is as clean, or cleaner than what
we have now ??? Maybe with todays technology this is still
impossible..... but how about tomorrow ?

How long are you willing to WAIT?
I don't know about YOU... but I ain't getting any younger!
The technology is moving fast in this market, but who knows how
long it will be before a true "prosumer" ( there's that term again )
fixed-lens camera hits the market that has a small sensor,
a small/cheap/high-quality/long-zoom lens, and noise-free high ISO?
2 more years? 5 more years?
What you want doesn't really exist yet.
The closest thing might be the new Fuji S9000.
I'll bet that SONY 58mm 1.7x teleconverter WILL work on the end
of that Fuji S9k lens!
I'd also be willing to bet that the new 5th gen Super CCD HR sensor
will produce some sweet image quality at ISO 800!
So... if you are dead-scared out of a DSLR.... don't be afraid to try
one of those new S9000's!

If you want to try another DSLR, try a Canon Rebel XT.
You got spooked for DSLR's with your Rebel... but maybe you just
needed some more time to warm-up to the whole "system".

In this game, you can't really have your cake and eat it too.
There are ALWAYS compromises to be made.

I had to bite the bullet and shell-out way more money than I wanted to.
But I have no regrets everytime I shoot with my XT setup.
I'm currently saving for a big zoom lens, and once I get it, my setup
should be just about complete.
Hopefully... I won't need to buy another camera for a long time.

But when you play the "prosumer digicam" game.... every year or two,
a fancy new model comes out that is a huge improvement over last
years model, and people flock to upgrade their older technology.
Look at the Fuji S5000.
Fuji introduced the S5100... and shortly after that hit the market,
we now have the S5200! These things debut around $350.
If I bought every model in this line... I would have spent a thousand
bucks... and I would STILL not have a camera that comes close to
the Rebel XT!

Think about it.

Late for work now, but if you would like, I'll be glad to go over
all of the reasons I dislike DSLR's later....

Yeah yeah yeah.... excuses, excuses.... grin

~ Mr. Mantis ~
--

 

[Mister Mantis]

And folks, I know for a fact that most of you out there quietly
(secretly) lust for an all in one model that achieves the results
we all crave - even at high ISO's, with little to negligible noise.

NAH.....
I went "REBEL XT" and never looked back!

I do have a friend who would like a high-end "prosumer" though,
which is why I have my eye on the new S9000.
It might be a good camera for him.

~ Mr. Mantis ~
--

 

[Gordon Whittaker]

Advanced Amateur Model!!!! Sheesh! This is so typical of those very, very strange people within Fuji's professional (?) marketing department. Why can't they just call it a Prosumer Digicam instead of getting all caught up in this double speak nonsense!
--
Gordy - Reading, MA - USA
PrintShop CS2 (registered)
NAPP Member
PBase Supporter
http://www.pbase.com/gordy/
http://www.pbase.com/davegw/ (my son)

 

[marf]

Ben, I always enjoy reading your posts.
but

As for the S9000 and E900, I don't know what to think. I mean to
tell you, I would have looked at it slightly differently if Fuji
used a 2/3" sensor design to accommodate those 9 MP (and yes, I
realize size equates with many other variables of design here) as
opposed to that very small 1/1.6" CCD

my opinion is, 2/3 " is the same as 1/1.5"
which is only a little bit larger than Fuji's 1/1.6".

So there is not much difference, or am I wrong ?

regards

 

[PaulS]

If you switch to a Nikon D-SLR, many, if not all, of your regular lenses will still give superb results. After all, the glass is really what's important!

 

[PaulS]

As many of you know, I have a D70 in addition to my E550. The larger sensor in the D70 (6MP) gives me consistently CA-free, superb images even under the harshest lighting conditions. It's all in the sensor!

That being said, I still have the E550 for those times when I don't want to lug the D70 and all it's accessories (lenses, flash, etc) around. The E550 will get the pic, but, unfortunately, always with a little purple-fringing and noise.
It just takes more time to fix in PS than with the D70 pics.

 

[Ben Herrmann]

You could very well be right. So much has changed and now we have so many different sensor sizes. I dug these up from somewhere (can't remember where), but here they are to give folks a glimpse of CCD sizes for comparison: