Thank you Canon!

[Alvin Nunley]

because that would fling you into the same boat as all of the 10D
owners who had their investment become obsolete 6 months after
forking over a pay check for it?

You must be joking. You say that my 10D is obsolete, when did this happen? Does that mean I can't be in the club? Will people laugh at me when I'm shooting pictures at the beach. Will people on the street laugh at me when I try to take their picture? Will my tomato plant pictures not be excepted in "Gardening" mag.?

And to think that I was so happy with the pictures I took.

 

[ioannis]

but isnt the demosaicing happening after the A/D conversion? According Canon there is no noise suppression after the A/D conversion but it is evident from test shots that detail is lost at very high ISO (even though the 20D is the best camera at the APS-C category) ?

Yiannis
--

Now watch what you say or they’ll be calling you a radical, liberal, fanatical, criminal. Won’t you sign up your name, we’d like to feel you’re αcceptable, respectable, presentable, a vegetable!

 

[Lee Jay]

but isnt the demosaicing happening after the A/D conversion?
According Canon there is no noise suppression after the A/D
conversion but it is evident from test shots that detail is lost at
very high ISO (even though the 20D is the best camera at the APS-C
category) ?

Detail is lost but it's not because of noise reduction. It's because the noise (which itself is low-contrast) is obscuring the actual low-contrast detail.

Shoot a high-contrast subject at ISO 3200 and you'll find that it'll be sharp as a tack like usual. Low-contrast subjects, on the other hand, are much sharper in appearance at low ISO because there's less noise covering up the edges.

--
Lee Jay
(see profile for equipment)

 

[brianric]

I do not see anyone putting a gun to your head to buy the latest and greayest. I'm very happy with my 20D, and I do not see myself upgrading for quite some time, unless full size sensor cameras go for $1,500 or less.

The fact remains that when Canon released the 10D, they most
definitely possessed the technology to release the 20D, and this
cycle will continue ad nauseum so long as consumers are willing to
max out credit cards on the next thing every 8 months. We're all
being taken to the cleaners every single day.

 

[ioannis]

but isnt the demosaicing happening after the A/D conversion?
According Canon there is no noise suppression after the A/D
conversion but it is evident from test shots that detail is lost at
very high ISO (even though the 20D is the best camera at the APS-C
category) ?

Detail is lost but it's not because of noise reduction. It's
because the noise (which itself is low-contrast) is obscuring the
actual low-contrast detail.

Shoot a high-contrast subject at ISO 3200 and you'll find that
it'll be sharp as a tack like usual. Low-contrast subjects, on the
other hand, are much sharper in appearance at low ISO because
there's less noise covering up the edges.

Again from Dave Etchells' review conclusions:

http://www.imaging-resource.com/PRODS/E20D/E20DIMATEST.HTM

"Note too, the difference at high ISO between the 20D and the 1D Mark II: The 20D incorporates additional noise-suppression technology that was developed after the 1D Mark II sensor entered production. The impact is clear, with markedly better performance by the 20D at ISO 1600 and 3200."

At his conclusions he states:

"...At the same time, the 20D's noise-suppression technology does an excellent job of holding noise in check, without losing subject detail in areas of subtle contrast. It's easy to have low image noise, if you don't mind giving up a lot of subtle subject detail, but the EOS-20D seems to avoid this tradeoff almost entirely... "

--
Lee Jay
(see profile for equipment)

--

Now watch what you say or they’ll be calling you a radical, liberal, fanatical, criminal. Won’t you sign up your name, we’d like to feel you’re αcceptable, respectable, presentable, a vegetable!

 

[Lee Jay]

Look carefully at these two shots from Phil's test:





Every edge in the ISO 100 shot is in the ISO 3200 shot. But you have to look harder to see them in the 3200 shot because noise is covering them up to some extent.

--
Lee Jay
(see profile for equipment)

 

[Lee Jay]

"Note too, the difference at high ISO between the 20D and the 1D
Mark II: The 20D incorporates additional noise-suppression
technology that was developed after the 1D Mark II sensor entered
production. The impact is clear, with markedly better performance
by the 20D at ISO 1600 and 3200."

Noise suppression is not noise-reduction. One keeps is from happening, the other reduces it after the fact.

Either way, the camera performs very well in low light. Even better with RAW and external RAW processing with noise reduction in the conversion.

--
Lee Jay
(see profile for equipment)

 

[pipspeak]

I'd be loathed to buy a FF camera or even a 1.3 crop because I love the 40-110mm effective range of the 24-70L way too much! Ain't no L glass that'll give me that range with either a 1.3 or FF sensor

 

[Lee Jay]

I'd be loathed to buy a FF camera or even a 1.3 crop because I love
the 40-110mm effective range of the 24-70L way too much! Ain't no L
glass that'll give me that range with either a 1.3 or FF sensor

Did you know that the 24-70L has the same range at the long end on a 10D and on a 1DsII?

Crop factor is a meaningless number when determining "reach". Pixel density is all that matters outside of the lens.

So, a 20D, a hypothetical 1.25 crop 13.4MP camera, and a hypothetical 21MP full-frame camera all have the same reach. But the larger sensors have the advantage at wide angle, at DOF control, and at overall image quality at a given print size.

--
Lee Jay
(see profile for equipment)

 

[DClark]

20D uses USB 2.0........It's faster than Firewire.

 

[TexasRebel]

Exactly...no one forces you to buy on the curve. If you are so inclined...buy behind the curve and save money.

Here we have a dynamic competitive market that results in lower prices and more features for all of us. I can't believe that someone actually suggested that a 5-year Soviet-style centrally planned product cycle would be better for customers...come 'on!!!

--
TexasRebel

 

[digitaljosh]

If the next generation camera that replaces the 20D does not have a
1.3 crop sensor and greater dynamic range (at least 2 stops), then
I say thank you to Canon!

Why do 10D owners complain? Why will 20D owners complain when the 30D comes out? They shouldn't - if your gear doesn't do what you want it to, then you shouldn't have bought it.

Digital cameras are NOT disposable. Right now you just have to pick the point at which you hop on the curve and plan on being satisfied until the the plataue comes in a few years, when you upgrade again.

This has happened with PCs. It is the same with digicams.
--
Canon + Picasa + Flickr
http://flickr.com/photos/jaakel/

 

[jrsforums]

I don't want to beat this to death, but I have some understanding of "chips" after 36 years in the computer industry....many of them closely tied to the development side.

I believe the "on-chip" quote from Canon refers to actually doing the noise reduction on the sensor "chip"....which is where it is best done. This, I believe, would be "burned" into the chip and probably only changeable by "turning" a new level of the "chip".

It maybe semantics, but when I hear the term "software" used in reference to a camera, I think more of the firmware for the Digic II processor, which is changeable by "flashing" a ROM "chip".

The use of the term "software" relative to noise reduction might give some people the mistaken impression that the noise reduction could be modified by some future "firmware" level....which I suspect is not the case.

John

 

[DavidMaven]

cycle will continue ad nauseum so long as consumers are willing to
max out credit cards on the next thing every 8 months. We're all
being taken to the cleaners every single day.

Nobody forces consumers to max out their credit cards every 8 months, stupid as such behavior is. I hate hearing people whine about the cost of college education for their children while buying $2500 big screen TVs.

But nobody forces you to not upgrade either. That others do upgrade in no way makes your camera stop working. Should we pity the last few buyers of new Canon FD mount bodies? They suffered far worse than buyers of EOS mount D60 and 10D bodies.

I think not. They real issue is buyer's remorse. People who buy cameras only to find out that the cameras are discontinued in a few months only PERCEIVE they have lost something. If they valued the D60 enough to plunk down $2500, there is no reason for them to not continue to value that camera at the same level, other than guilt over their own inability to wait for a pro-sumer DSLR that costs less.

If you need to pity photogs, how about the pro who plunks down $8000 for a pro-body, only to see, months later, a better body at $4000? That's far more painful in my opinion.
--
[email protected]

 

[elv]

Digital cameras are NOT disposable.

They seem fairly dispossable to me, 3 years is about the run before they drop in value enough to not be worthwhile fixing when something expensive goes wrong. Especialy when you have the option of new much improved goodies for less $$ instead!

Regds
Elv

--
http://www.pbase.com/epdesigns

 

[EOSMan]

let's not beat this to death. My reference to software noise reduction was for future Canon cameras if they push the megapixel war. I only made reference to the 20D built in noise reduction that they are using now for long exposures. They might further develop this and implement on future cameras whither it be software that's firmware upgradeable or fixed on a chip. I have been 20 years myself writing software and burned a few EPROM’s over the years.

--
EOSMan

http://www.pbase.com/eosman

 

[EOSMan]

If the next generation camera that replaces the 20D does not have a
1.3 crop sensor and greater dynamic range (at least 2 stops), then
I say thank you to Canon!

Why do 10D owners complain? Why will 20D owners complain when the
30D comes out? They shouldn't - if your gear doesn't do what you
want it to, then you shouldn't have bought it.

Digital cameras are NOT disposable. Right now you just have to pick
the point at which you hop on the curve and plan on being satisfied
until the the plataue comes in a few years, when you upgrade again.

This has happened with PCs. It is the same with digicams.
--
Canon + Picasa + Flickr
http://flickr.com/photos/jaakel/

--
EOSMan

http://www.pbase.com/eosman

 

[ioannis]

Lee Jay these are very small shots and it is impossible to tell whether any detail has been lost because of the extra noise or the extra noise reduction.

I m not sure I buy Canon's story and the Imatest does show less resolution at higher ISO.

I dont really care much either, like you I only want 0 noise and max resolution all the time. Lets hope we get it.

Yiannis
--

Now watch what you say or they’ll be calling you a radical, liberal, fanatical, criminal. Won’t you sign up your name, we’d like to feel you’re αcceptable, respectable, presentable, a vegetable!

 

[Larry Selph]

my 2 cents. When I bought my S50 almost 2 years ago I wanted to go SLR but it was still very expensive. I saw the digital eos born (300D) and then the Nikon D70 (which I almost bought). I was like a little kid each time one of these came out I downloaded and printed the entire user manual and read them. 300D wasn't it but not by much. D70 looked like the one but good bad or other I loved my S50 and decided to go Canon. Then one day I saw the 20D. It was a match made in heaven. I take pictures because I love to. If I am lucky someday maybe a couple will be salable. Anyway I spent what I consider serious cash on the 20D and after a few months I love her more than the day we met. I am in this relationship for the long term. I will invest in lenses and flashes and what not and someday she will give out and I will upgrade but I see this like the relationship with my wife. just because a younger hotter more able woman may come by i am not going to move on to the next one. yeah it would be really awesome but unless the difference is night and day it will only be exciting for a minute and then I would be looking to upgrade again. My camera is one of very few artistic outlets for me. It really isn't about the machine it's about the joy of taking pictures. If that gets old I won't need a better camera anyway!!!!!

 

[EOSMan]

You lost me here Larry. Were you talking about trading in you wife would be awesome or the camera?

like the relationship with my wife. just because a younger hotter
more able woman may come by i am not going to move on to the next
one. yeah it would be really awesome but unless the difference is
night and day it will only be exciting for a minute and then I
would be looking to upgrade again.

--
EOSMan

http://www.pbase.com/eosman