20D a real problem with it and other DSLRs

[Wm. Bates]

I have been going back and forth with myself whether I should make this post. Don't beat me up or hate to much if you don't agree.

There is a very real problem with the 20D.

I watch and read most post here and other place and I'm seeing a disturbing trend. This is a problem I really had with my 10D and again with my 20D but not to the same extent. I have played with many of the other DSLR at one time or another and they all seem to show tendency toward the same problem. In 30 years plus of SLR film shooting I never noticed this problem.

The problem is that the 20D and other DSLR to one extent or another... is they are brutally honest. If your technique slips even a little it shows and at 100% on the monitor it is as plain as the nose on your face. If your lens is less than excellent the 20D and other DSLR will point it out to you in a heart beat.

When I got my 10D it took me months before I got decent or acceptable images. They were soft, flat, often out of focus and many times showed motion blur. I really wanted to blame it all on the camera. I had been shooting film for 30 years with no problem. I never noticed my images looking this bad. I had two point and shoot cameras before the 10D and they sure seemed to work. Well they worked if the subject was standing still, I used a tripod, timer and could shoot at 100 ISO. Plain and simple the 10D was sucking.

Then it hit me. In 30 years of film almost all my prints were printed at 4x6 or 5x7. There were a few I had printed at 8x10 inches and I could count on one hand things printed larger than that. it caused me to go back and look at some images I have blown up. Guess what they showed lots of the problems I had when I got the 10D. I just had never really looked that closely before. These were from my Oly bodies with excellent Oly lenses.

Moral of the story. Don't be so fast to blame the camera. Even an old dog like me that thought he knew what he was doing can be wrong and I often am. My technique was sloppy and it showed. It often still shows when I slip into bad habits.

Our DSLR have a very steep learning curve. Things that were fixed by some tech at the processing lab (we likely never knew they were fixing) we have to do ourselves. Our cameras give us very neutral images that really have no characteristics of the films we used. We have to add those "looks" in parameters and post processing.

So, remember, when we look at those 100% or even 25% images we see the truth. The truth is often not pretty. I know for me it still often isn't.

I know it is easy to blame the camera and or lens. Maybe we need to look elsewhere first and take responsibility.

For sure the 20D and others don't lie and I know for me they often remind me I can and do suck at times.

Now it is time to practice some more...go take pictures.
--
Bill
Taking It One Day At a Time



http://www.pbase.com/slowpokebill
'The fact that no one understands you doesn't mean you're an artist.' Unknown
'Every man dies; but, not every man lives' Braveheart
'Sometime the magic works. Sometimes it doesn't' Little Big Man

 

[Jimfc]

Another former Oly user! Actually - I still have my OM4Ti and a couple OM2s. Great camera line - I just wasn't impressed with the E-1.

Your comments above are so true!

--
Jim C.
'f/8 and be there....'
-Ansel Adams

 

[Blue60407]

I have come to that conclusion myself. Most times, my problems are because of bad technique on my part.

I have been going back and forth with myself whether I should make
this post. Don't beat me up or hate to much if you don't agree.

There is a very real problem with the 20D.

I watch and read most post here and other place and I'm seeing a
disturbing trend. This is a problem I really had with my 10D and
again with my 20D but not to the same extent. I have played with
many of the other DSLR at one time or another and they all seem to
show tendency toward the same problem. In 30 years plus of SLR film
shooting I never noticed this problem.

The problem is that the 20D and other DSLR to one extent or
another... is they are brutally honest. If your technique slips
even a little it shows and at 100% on the monitor it is as plain as
the nose on your face. If your lens is less than excellent the 20D
and other DSLR will point it out to you in a heart beat.

When I got my 10D it took me months before I got decent or
acceptable images. They were soft, flat, often out of focus and
many times showed motion blur. I really wanted to blame it all on
the camera. I had been shooting film for 30 years with no problem.
I never noticed my images looking this bad. I had two point and
shoot cameras before the 10D and they sure seemed to work. Well
they worked if the subject was standing still, I used a tripod,
timer and could shoot at 100 ISO. Plain and simple the 10D was
sucking.

Then it hit me. In 30 years of film almost all my prints were
printed at 4x6 or 5x7. There were a few I had printed at 8x10
inches and I could count on one hand things printed larger than
that. it caused me to go back and look at some images I have blown
up. Guess what they showed lots of the problems I had when I got
the 10D. I just had never really looked that closely before. These
were from my Oly bodies with excellent Oly lenses.

Moral of the story. Don't be so fast to blame the camera. Even an
old dog like me that thought he knew what he was doing can be wrong
and I often am. My technique was sloppy and it showed. It often
still shows when I slip into bad habits.

Our DSLR have a very steep learning curve. Things that were fixed
by some tech at the processing lab (we likely never knew they were
fixing) we have to do ourselves. Our cameras give us very neutral
images that really have no characteristics of the films we used. We
have to add those "looks" in parameters and post processing.

So, remember, when we look at those 100% or even 25% images we see
the truth. The truth is often not pretty. I know for me it still
often isn't.

I know it is easy to blame the camera and or lens. Maybe we need to
look elsewhere first and take responsibility.

For sure the 20D and others don't lie and I know for me they often
remind me I can and do suck at times.

Now it is time to practice some more...go take pictures.
--
Bill
Taking It One Day At a Time



http://www.pbase.com/slowpokebill
'The fact that no one understands you doesn't mean you're an
artist.' Unknown
'Every man dies; but, not every man lives' Braveheart
'Sometime the magic works. Sometimes it doesn't' Little Big Man

--
Blue

 

[Wm. Bates]

I have an OM2 and a OM77 (I think it may have been OLympus' first auto focus...it really kind of sucks). Both were good and served me well. I was disappointed when Olympus decided on the 4/3 system. When they gave a glimpse of what they planned for the future I decided it was time for a system change.
--
Bill
Taking It One Day At a Time



http://www.pbase.com/slowpokebill
'The fact that no one understands you doesn't mean you're an artist.' Unknown
'Every man dies; but, not every man lives' Braveheart
'Sometime the magic works. Sometimes it doesn't' Little Big Man

 

[prweasel]

Bill:

Your comments obviously are the result of a lot of thought and were eloquently stated.

My experience moving from 35mm to digital were similar to yours. It's amazing how my 20D's focusing improved and exposures became much more accurate as I learned the equipment. Guess that means Canon's cameras need a break-in period before they function properly ... :-}

The problems typically aren't caused by the hardware or the software, but by the "liveware" operating the hardware and software.

By the way, I really enjoy your photos. Can't look at them too often, though, because I quickly develop a case of image envy.
--
Pat Hemlepp, Hilliard, Ohio - Gallery: http://www.pbase.com/hemlepp

 

[Jimmer]

I've agonized over images that ended up looking great when printed at 8 x 10. This technology has given us the opportunity to be much more critical of our work. And there is no harm in that as long as we keep it in perspective.

 

[Dennis_Wood]

Bill,

thanks, I think you've hit the nail on the head, and probably more than a few people will complain that you're being critical of them, but your observations are quite correct.

I went thru a similar roller-coaster period of enthusiasm and disappointment when I got my first DSLR. So many things to learn, so many buttons and parameters, and they all have a noticable effect on the quality of the image. I often found myself considering going back to film, which seemed so much simpler, but the more I learned about what all the buttons and settings did, the more I could see how much better my photography could be once I figured them out. (still working on that one, BTW)

Yep, all these DSLR's have a serious problem, they require a competent operator to get the most out of them.

You wouldn't send your 15 year old with their learners permit out to get behind the wheel of a tandem tractor-tralier rig, would you? Vehicles like that take lots of experience and knowledge of their workings to operate correctly and safely, and likewise these cameras have quite remarkable capabilities, but you need to get beyond the "learners permit" phase of your photography before you're going to see the best results.

To that end, I think places like Best Buy and Circuit City selling these cameras as glorified point&shoots are doing more of a disservice to the craft. Of course they're making money off them, so its doubtful they will stop.

Thanks for the enlightening post.!!

 

[Bobster2]

Our DSLR have a very steep learning curve. Things that were fixed

I respect the fact that you have high standards. So do I.

But the learning curve is for photography in general. Not for a DSLR. This is where we disagree. The DSLR is easier than a film SLR because you get instant feedback from the histogram and LCD.

The key word in "learning curve" is LEARNING. People have to be willing to take pictures, look at them, and learn from the experience. There is nothing about the DSLR that prevents people from taking pictures, looking at them, and learning.

For example, I recently took 150 pictures of a flower and then deleted them all because I didn't like them. That's part of the learning curve you talk about. But it had nothing to do with my ability to use a camera. Operating the camera and doing the post processing was easy. The lighting and composition are the hard part, not the DSLR.

Bob

 

[Pedagydusz]

... absolutely correct!

Antonio

 

[Jim Durham]

Well said Bill.

I know when I first got my 10D, I was so excited. Then I saw my first pictures and I was very disappointed. What I didn't do was fall into the trap of blaming the camera.

I went back to basics and looked critically at what I was doing and I quickly decided that it was me.

One of the first things I did was to go to manual. That's where my comfort zone is. It's what I was always used to and it payed off. Let me decide what all of the settings will be.

The next thing I did, and the thing that most drastically improved my focus issues, was to move the AF off of the shutter.

Today, I can go out with confidence, knowing I am capable of taking very nice shots. I still fall short at times, but when I see it, I know it was me and not the camera.

Thanks again Bill,
Jim

 

[Ingo R]

Plus I went to the store today to check out the 70-200 2.8 IS and later a Sigma 70-200 2.8. No hiding differences in lens quality with this camera. It shows -- and screams for the best glass and focusing.

In my 25+ years of Photography, I learned of some idiosyncracies shooting digital that weren't even thought of when I started out. Composition and general technics haven't changed, but I don't miss darkroom work either

I think I got a step up by using the rather sophisticated prosumer KM A2 before I picked up my 20D, so quirks (like using spot focus instead of having the camera determine focus point and raw imaging) don't faze me.

I hope to post images soon as you have been doing and something that has been going on in the KM forum rather than complaints about focus issues with this lens and that.

I really think the "What did you shoot/process today" thread would be nice!

BTW, loved your Evening Wanda waterfall pic (among others).
--
Ingo

pbase supporter
http://www.pbase.com/ingor

 

[LeeBase]

I agree. I was heartsick when I saw my first photos from the digital rebel...they weren't near as nice as photos from my Coolpix 990.

However, I will quibble a bit. I think part of our "problem" is the availability of the internet and folks like you displaying your AWESOME photos. Why can't I get those awesome photos?

And we nit pick photos. "That's soft". Oh, how many times did I hear that. But you know what? Printed out as a 4x6...it easily matched my 4x6's from my film cameras.

But the bar is RAISED. And I want to get those amazingly clear, amazingly sharp, outstandinly composed photos like I see the best on the forums produce.

It's like golfing with Tiger Woods. I mean, you know you aren't the world's greatest golfer, but then, normally, you are not swinging shot for shot right next to the guy who is.

Lee

 

[Wm. Bates]

Our DSLR have a very steep learning curve. Things that were fixed

I respect the fact that you have high standards. So do I.

But the learning curve is for photography in general. Not for a
DSLR. This is where we disagree. The DSLR is easier than a film SLR
because you get instant feedback from the histogram and LCD.

The key word in "learning curve" is LEARNING. People have to be
willing to take pictures, look at them, and learn from the
experience. There is nothing about the DSLR that prevents people
from taking pictures, looking at them, and learning.

This is the huge upside to digital. You can see things and figure out what your doing wrong and right so much faster. Cost of shooting is almost zero (OK you do wear out the body) so you can try so many more things quickly. Plus you have the EXIF info there so you know what you did without taking notes.

For example, I recently took 150 pictures of a flower and then
deleted them all because I didn't like them. That's part of the
learning curve you talk about. But it had nothing to do with my
ability to use a camera. Operating the camera and doing the post
processing was easy.

If you have been here awhile...the tech end of just using the camera and practicing good technique is hard and new for many. I think P&S and film to point( if your not making huge enlargement) can be very forgiving of technical errors. The P&S over process the image to start with. they add more sharpening, contrast and color saturation in camera. That small sensor leads to huge DOF which hides focus errors. Plain and simple they are more forgiving than our DSLRs.

So the technical end is unforgiving, toss in a lack of understanding light and composition and 20D or other DSLR can be discouraging.

The upside is if people hang in there are willing to do some reading, listen to people posting here and other places with time you can take some amazing images. Some just need to move past I bought this $1500 camera with a $500 lens yesterday and today all I get is soft out of focus garbage. If they put in sometime (and I can say this as someone that has been taking pictures a longtime) even if you have been doing this a long time and are sure you know what you are doing you might be surprised.

I know I learned how much I sucked when I thought I didn't and still get reminded of it often.

--
Bill
Taking It One Day At a Time



http://www.pbase.com/slowpokebill
'The fact that no one understands you doesn't mean you're an artist.' Unknown
'Every man dies; but, not every man lives' Braveheart
'Sometime the magic works. Sometimes it doesn't' Little Big Man

 

[royend]

Your text helps me a lot. I have only had my 20D in three weeks, and most of my pictures have not turned out quite like I wanted. Often I have blamed the light (too much, the sun is high in summer...), although I have never blamed my camera and lenses. I bought the best (my money could buy), so that I would be sure I couldn't blame my gear.

So far I have gotten somewhat an understanding of these settings: ISO, exposure time and aperture, which I guess are the basics of all pictures.

But still I have not looked at the parameter settings, and haven't thought much of white balance. It's just so much to learn, and the steep learning curve, as I am coming from nothing, just seems steeper. Luckily I love learning new things....

 

[Ross Wilsie]

--
--Ross--
http://www.rwilsie.smugmug.com/

 

[BlackSMP]

when going from my CP995 to the DRebel. It took me 2 weeks before the first shot which made me feel: "Wow, perhaps I can do it..."

And at occasions I still sometimes feel: "Whoops! What happened, why can't I take decent shots anymore..."

--jalle

 

[Wm. Bates]

Your text helps me a lot. I have only had my 20D in three weeks,
and most of my pictures have not turned out quite like I wanted.
Often I have blamed the light (too much, the sun is high in
summer...), although I have never blamed my camera and lenses. I
bought the best (my money could buy), so that I would be sure I
couldn't blame my gear.

Nice bright mid day light is tough. I like to shoot very early or late and then go fishing in the middle of the day...except those nice high over cast days I pray for.

So far I have gotten somewhat an understanding of these settings:
ISO, exposure time and aperture, which I guess are the basics of
all pictures.

But still I have not looked at the parameter settings, and haven't
thought much of white balance. It's just so much to learn, and the
steep learning curve, as I am coming from nothing, just seems
steeper. Luckily I love learning new things....

If you hit walls...don't be afraid to ask. There are some really helpful people here. If they don't know the answer they may know where to point you to find the answer.
--
Bill
Taking It One Day At a Time



http://www.pbase.com/slowpokebill
'The fact that no one understands you doesn't mean you're an artist.' Unknown
'Every man dies; but, not every man lives' Braveheart
'Sometime the magic works. Sometimes it doesn't' Little Big Man

 

[Todd Meucci]

In the latest American Photo magazine they did a review of "what's new" in digicams. One of their reviews was on the apple of my eye, the 1Ds mk2. It is but a matter of time before I own this incredible piece of hardware, how much time is the big question.

To the point, they described this camera's resolution something to the effect of being limited by the glass, and that only Canon's best lenses would bring out its true resolving capacities. It would show each and every mistake made by the photographer in such detail, there would never be any hiding it. I thought this represented a very interesting subject, that of the resolving power of the camera outperforming even the L glass. Will we go much beyond the 16-22 MP range? I for one have no clue. So if we all think it's bad with the 10/20Ds... whoa nellie.

I have been going back and forth with myself whether I should make
this post. Don't beat me up or hate to much if you don't agree.

There is a very real problem with the 20D.

I watch and read most post here and other place and I'm seeing a
disturbing trend. This is a problem I really had with my 10D and
again with my 20D but not to the same extent. I have played with
many of the other DSLR at one time or another and they all seem to
show tendency toward the same problem. In 30 years plus of SLR film
shooting I never noticed this problem.

The problem is that the 20D and other DSLR to one extent or
another... is they are brutally honest. If your technique slips
even a little it shows and at 100% on the monitor it is as plain as
the nose on your face. If your lens is less than excellent the 20D
and other DSLR will point it out to you in a heart beat.

When I got my 10D it took me months before I got decent or
acceptable images. They were soft, flat, often out of focus and
many times showed motion blur. I really wanted to blame it all on
the camera. I had been shooting film for 30 years with no problem.
I never noticed my images looking this bad. I had two point and
shoot cameras before the 10D and they sure seemed to work. Well
they worked if the subject was standing still, I used a tripod,
timer and could shoot at 100 ISO. Plain and simple the 10D was
sucking.

Then it hit me. In 30 years of film almost all my prints were
printed at 4x6 or 5x7. There were a few I had printed at 8x10
inches and I could count on one hand things printed larger than
that. it caused me to go back and look at some images I have blown
up. Guess what they showed lots of the problems I had when I got
the 10D. I just had never really looked that closely before. These
were from my Oly bodies with excellent Oly lenses.

Moral of the story. Don't be so fast to blame the camera. Even an
old dog like me that thought he knew what he was doing can be wrong
and I often am. My technique was sloppy and it showed. It often
still shows when I slip into bad habits.

Our DSLR have a very steep learning curve. Things that were fixed
by some tech at the processing lab (we likely never knew they were
fixing) we have to do ourselves. Our cameras give us very neutral
images that really have no characteristics of the films we used. We
have to add those "looks" in parameters and post processing.

So, remember, when we look at those 100% or even 25% images we see
the truth. The truth is often not pretty. I know for me it still
often isn't.

I know it is easy to blame the camera and or lens. Maybe we need to
look elsewhere first and take responsibility.

For sure the 20D and others don't lie and I know for me they often
remind me I can and do suck at times.

Now it is time to practice some more...go take pictures.
--
Bill
Taking It One Day At a Time



http://www.pbase.com/slowpokebill
'The fact that no one understands you doesn't mean you're an
artist.' Unknown
'Every man dies; but, not every man lives' Braveheart
'Sometime the magic works. Sometimes it doesn't' Little Big Man

--
http://www.meucciphotographic.com

 

[dalephill]

it took myself over a year to get to where I understad the basics, and 2 years to finally like the images I now get, and that is on my 10D which is a great piece of equipment, had me blaming the camera as well for along time. I rarly got 10% of my phoito's, now I am alot closer to 60%, so it helps to learn your curve. I am just a hobbist taking the cam out when I can, if I had the time to had spent with it more it would not have taken so much time. I am now into another stage of flash and color but again just as I need, so it may take me another year, but thing is I do enjoy it when I am doing.



--
Bless Those that smile upon us, and allow us to take their picture.

 

[Brunobl]

Bill,

So, remember, when we look at those 100% or even
25% images we see the truth.

Beautifully put.

And, many (if not all) of us got into the habit of examining every picture at 100%. How many times have we inpected our negatives under a strong magnifying glass? Surely not all of the time, like we all seem to be doing here.

We are not only seeing the truth, we are looking at it pretty close into its eye!

Best regards,
Bruno.