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jazzy17

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This morning I took my 65+ year old parents to a UK shopping mall (shall remain nameless but is one of Europes largest and situated in the South East of the UK). In particular I took them to a nature lake area outside the actual shopping complex. Here, I thought they could feed the swans, ducks etc and take a nice walk around the natural surroundings. I was also hoping to take some wildlife pictures and some of my parents.

To my shock I was told by a Policeman that i cannot take pictues anywhere on the shopping mall grounds and that was policy. I was shocked as I have been visiting the mall since 1999 and never seen any signs to this effect; have seen plenty of families/indivudals taking pictures; was only taking pictures of wildlife nowhere near the shopping complex (no children, businesses or general public in the shots). The plain clothes detective insisted that he see some ID and took my details AND those of my parents. i was assured that this was only for reference just incase someone off CCTV (security cameras) sees me and pulls me up for questioning.

?!??!?! forgive my cynicism..but I thought Hitler and the Nazis lost WW2!!! ?!?!? Why is it OK for the shopping centre to take digital snaps of all car number plates entering and leaving the centre, take our mugshots (unknown to us) on CCTV around the centre (none of this is public knowledge - I only know this because I worked there whilst studying). I cannot take pictures of my own family in the natural surroundings of a lake?

I have now decided to minimise my shopping excursions to the shopping mall (can't stop totally as the mall has killed all other retail business in the surrounding area), and never go out to eat there or watch films.

I'm apprehensive about the precedents this sets. Does this mean we can't take pictures on our very own streets (where in the UK CCTV is popping up everywhere watching all our moves)?

What are your thoughts on this?
 
well.. i'm not sure about private property laws in the UK, but i'm pretty sure the shopping mall is private property. if they prevent you from taking pictures, it isn't censorship. it's censorship when the government is involved

and you are also welcome to take pictures of those in your home, as well as prevent others from doing so.

jim
 
Jim

Yeah i hear what you are saying... that's what I told myself to came myself down. And you are right.

But its the fact that I felt like I was guilty until proven innocent. I suppose what ticks me off the most is that the mall pay well be paying extra for dedicated police services but when if anyone from the public had such a problem, the police would drag their feet in doing something. Money does talk right lol.

I also reckon the fact that I have been stopped by police innocently driving to the hospital to visit my mum, and interrogated for what seems no reasone whatsoever (no traffic violations etc while driving) makes me more sceptical.

Anyways, thanks for letting me vent my frustration and bringing me down to earth.
 
I share your concern. Not so much about the interdiction to use a camera but about the CCTV that are used in more and more places. I understand that the situation in the UK is quite bad.

The usual argument is that if you do not have anything to hide, then you should not worry.

However, I believe it is dangerous to give authorities so much power. Sooner or later it will be abused. In all countries we have problems with police abusing thier power. And the more power they have, the more abuse there will be.

Electronics have aggravated the problem. Hidden surveillance is on the increase. Authorities use any paranoia they can develop. The fight against drugs, against terrorism, against immorality, name it, and it is a good excuse to increase the central power. Often, the means to fight something are worse than the thing being fought.

I believe that the older a civilisation is, the more oppressive it becomes. Typically, central authorities resist change and impose old values. America was populated by people fleeing the European oppressions. America was wildly successfull and this has encouraged the Europeans to open-up. Now America itself is becoming increasingly oppressive.

Can a civilisation rejuvenate itself and shed its fears? May be we can at least try to ressist the degeneration toward police states?

Frank
 
You guys might like to check out this Aussie site, which although applies specifically to us downunder, may have some valid generalised points of interest.
http://www.virtualcity.com.au/~spmmc/newsletters/Barry%20Daniel.pdf

In Australia, a shopping mall and its surrounds is considered a "public place" and therefore nobody can legally stop you from taking still images. Unless you're hindering them in the execution of their lawful duty, this prohibition also applies to Police and private security guards.

The only exceptions to this are sensitive locations such as military bases, airports, power stations, nuclear facilities, naval ships etc etc.

There's no legal prohibition against taking anyone's image in a public place, even if they object; it's also OK to take photographs of private property from a public place (as through a fence or from an overlooking hill).

Cheers.
 
Yep, you was on 'private property'.. been moved on myself from a pavement next to a multistorey car park by the security guard "this is private too". Well he stopped me photographing the concrete ramps and columns...

I've also been stopped photographing behind MOD buildings at Liverpools waterfront. Now, that waterfront is very much photographed and so are the front of the buldings I was behind.

I wasn't even pointing my camera at the MOD building... I was in the road by it and was shooting a tree/wall in the other direction.

No signs of prohibition or anything...just two sec guards who came out and told me who owned the building and 'no photography'. I said 'where the signs to stop a ignorant member of the public breaking the law?".. silence......didn't have an answer for that did they?

I always co-operate with sec guards as 'they man the cameas' and I'm walking around on my own at odd times at night... they do watch me and watch my back? [I have bumpoed into lively kids and 5 mins later a police van pasing enquired 'if I was alright?'] I don't upset the guys who man the cameras and who I'll be relying on to call the police should something unfortunate happen. [I can imagine them sitting there saying' oh, here's come a potential camera donator']

Iused to be against the 'big brother' cameras on our corners... [there's one on my street corner and 'they' could follow me into and around the town centre if they wished]... but I'm in 2 minds about them now. I see the [potential] harm they could do in the future if we get a oppresive govt. but I also see the good.

Next thing we'll get is these ID cards... they've invented muslim terrorists now and suddenly 'we need them' to keep us safe?

Ah well... I'll be dead in a few decades, then my worries will be over.
--
http://photobucket.com/albums/y6/001-spanky/

 
in order of wimpiness: 1 is very wimpy

1. don't shop there any more.
2. stand outside with a sign and start a mini one-man demonstration.

3. take photos. when the security comes take photos of them. send a pic to your local newspaper. tell the shopping centre (malls r in the US by the way, not southern enhland) what you are planning to do/have done.

now i'm no action man but i know what I do in this situation:

http://www.waddo.net/photos/tokyo2001to3/image-html/029shinjuku_security_guard.html
--
keith

http://www.waddo.net
 
Tell the mall stores that they have lost your business because of the mall policy and when they pressure the mall to change it, you will be back ( with your $$$$$$).

rw
jazzy17 said:
I have now decided to minimise my shopping excursions to the
shopping mall (can't stop totally as the mall has killed all other
retail business in the surrounding area), and never go out to eat
there or watch films.
Click to expand...
 
hey mr williams

it's also a good idea. but what will they do with $$$$$$ when the shoping centre is in england where they use ?££££££££££££. You are just making this situation more complex than it needs to be.

--
keith

http://www.waddo.net
 
How soon they forget. Fascism was NOT about racism and imperialism, fascism was invented ib Italy as way of reviving a depressed economy. Fascism was the fusion of corporate and goverment authority ... as in this example of a Mall.
--
Stephen M Schwartz
 
I am impressed. I will no longer accept the screed that Australia is just an island off of Cal;ifornia (sorry). Seriously!
--
Stephen M Schwartz
 
If you are willing not to shop there in the future then you can take this risk:

Return with the camera and photgraphy the mal in an unflattering light, emphasizing the big brother qualities. Print theses as a booklet, explicitly making your point. Distribute same.
--
Stephen M Schwartz
 
I spoke to a neighbour about it and they reckon it was out of order too what happened to me at the shopping centre. Best thing, i wasn't even in the shopping centre, I was 10 min walk away at a lake they have taking pics of my parents and the natural ducks, swans etc. Even showed the guy the pics.

i still a little peeved (police officer was polite) but by the way he was treating as if I was guilty until proven innocent. Just don't appreciate being treated like a criminal over photos when there are thiefs and murderers to be caught. My neighbour reckons its because of my skin colour (I'm a Brit with Indian heritage). Since 9/11 anyone not white, remotely Muslim looking, has been getting stopped and questioned randomly.

Shame. But yeah, my folks who were with me, refuse to go back to the shopping mall. Me, will prob do the same.
 
I think they have every right to control everything that goes on within their property.

That said, I think that the sudden clamping down of the dasterdly act of taking pictures of ones parents and the occation goose is the most ludicrous thing I've heard, and I've heard of it a lot around here lately. Business-wise it is moronic. Don't they WANT people to come to the mall? Heck, the mall here is letting the local community college set up a computer lab in a vacant storefont for free just to get more people in.

And on a tangent of that, it's horrible public relations.

A mall near my parents' house sets up displays in the mall for people to take pictures in front of. It's become a tourist attraction and even gets mentions in sight seeing books (albeit with titled like "Weird US")

--
http://www.apt131.com/photolog.html
 
Frank43 said:
I share your concern. Not so much about the interdiction to use a
camera but about the CCTV that are used in more and more places. I
understand that the situation in the UK is quite bad.

The usual argument is that if you do not have anything to hide,
then you should not worry.
Click to expand...
Yes, but anyone who has pulled up their pantyhose, made slight underwear adjustments, or wiped their nose on their sleeve in an empty isle of a store and then though about the camera would disagree. :-D
Frank43 said:
However, I believe it is dangerous to give authorities so much
power. Sooner or later it will be abused. In all countries we have
problems with police abusing thier power. And the more power they
have, the more abuse there will be.

Electronics have aggravated the problem. Hidden surveillance is on
the increase. Authorities use any paranoia they can develop. The
fight against drugs, against terrorism, against immorality, name
it, and it is a good excuse to increase the central power. Often,
the means to fight something are worse than the thing being fought.

I believe that the older a civilisation is, the more oppressive it
becomes. Typically, central authorities resist change and impose
old values.
Click to expand...
I don't know about that one. There are an awful lot of young, violently strict dicatorships in the world.
Frank43 said:
America was populated by people fleeing the European
oppressions. America was wildly successfull and this has encouraged
the Europeans to open-up. Now America itself is becoming
increasingly oppressive.

Can a civilisation rejuvenate itself and shed its fears? May be we
can at least try to ressist the degeneration toward police states?
Click to expand...
That sounds awfully Unamerican to me, Frank. ;-)
Frank43 said:
Frank
Click to expand...
--
http://www.apt131.com/photolog.html
 
jazzy17 said:
This morning I took my 65+ year old parents to a UK shopping mall
(shall remain nameless but is one of Europes largest and situated
in the South East of the UK). In particular I took them to a
nature lake area outside the actual shopping complex. Here, I
thought they could feed the swans, ducks etc and take a nice walk
around the natural surroundings. I was also hoping to take some
wildlife pictures and some of my parents.

To my shock I was told by a Policeman that i cannot take pictues
anywhere on the shopping mall grounds and that was policy. I was
shocked as I have been visiting the mall since 1999 and never seen
any signs to this effect; have seen plenty of families/indivudals
taking pictures; was only taking pictures of wildlife nowhere near
the shopping complex (no children, businesses or general public in
the shots). The plain clothes detective insisted that he see some
ID and took my details AND those of my parents. i was assured that
this was only for reference just incase someone off CCTV (security
cameras) sees me and pulls me up for questioning.

?!??!?! forgive my cynicism..but I thought Hitler and the Nazis
lost WW2!!! ?!?!? Why is it OK for the shopping centre to take
digital snaps of all car number plates entering and leaving the
centre, take our mugshots (unknown to us) on CCTV around the centre
(none of this is public knowledge - I only know this because I
worked there whilst studying). I cannot take pictures of my own
family in the natural surroundings of a lake?

I have now decided to minimise my shopping excursions to the
shopping mall (can't stop totally as the mall has killed all other
retail business in the surrounding area), and never go out to eat
there or watch films.

I'm apprehensive about the precedents this sets. Does this mean we
can't take pictures on our very own streets (where in the UK CCTV
is popping up everywhere watching all our moves)?

What are your thoughts on this?
Click to expand...
Hi Jazzy

Firstly, are you sure it was a policeman? As I understand the law, the Police would have absolutely no cause (or juristriction) to administer / enforce center policy. Centre policy would be a civil matter, which would require a civil action through a court to find that you had been in breach of a contract (not likely since you have not agreed to these conditions). The police could then move, at the request of the court, to enforce the policy. Look at it another way, what LAW have you broken by taking photos of the centre or it's surroundings? The Police are here to enforce the law, not centre policy.

Secondly, if the person was centre staff, you may have cause for complaint in that the person claimed to be a Policeman to gain private information about you. I trust you got his name / number? Impersonating a Police Officer is a criminal offence.

I was just over the road in Costco yesterday evening. Next time I am down there, I will take my camera (big and indiscreet) and my missus (Indian) and go on a wind up:)

The no photography policy may in some cases be well and truly valid and for good reason. However, it's enforcability is another matter. A number of years ago, when our terrorist threat came from over the Irish sea (or from Seven Kings) and most UK residents felt considerably more under threat than they do now, I was taking photographs of an oil refinery at night. I was making no attempt at subtefuge, just set up on a tripod by the road doing some long exposures.

The security guards came out and told us we were not allowed to take photos of the refinery, however, by welcoming them with a good attitude and explaining what I was working on, they left us alone. Not because they approved of the creative idea, but because they had no juristriction. Just recently, I was photographing an old Victorian institution all fenced up and CCTV secured. After dodging the CCTV and Guard patrol for 45 minutes, I let the guy find me (brightened up his day). Expalined how I got round entry and CCTV vision and then got invited to knock at the office next time for a tour around the inside as well!

I think that the most centre staff can do is ask you to stop taking photos or to leave their premises, but pretending to be police officers and taking information about you under false pretences is a serious offence.

Chris
 
Got a lovely brochure from the Bluewater Mall Owners and it explaind their policies on having your face covered wearing a hoody and further down said that photography is prohibited without management written permission.
I think that's a fair position to take.

It's the children's Society that's overreacting in my opinion. Telling children to boycott the placxe. How daft is that?

Celebrate well West Ham!

--

 
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