wow, can't believe this!

[Jason Hutchinson]

I can see the difference ..

Did you set Pbase to do anything to your original ?

Either in "upload processing" or "Original Image Processing"

I can answer that. He couldn't possibly have. Why? Because the image on pbase is the exact same file without one bit changed as the file on the dedicated server. Every exif tag and every pixel is bit for bit the same. Same files. If you're seeing a difference, it is another issue of the variety that has been discussed above.

There are numerous ways to prove that to yourself, including the checksum or loading each into difference layers, but my preferred method is Windiff:

 

[John Storjohann]

Really can't tell a difference in regard to color/sharpness/etc.

--
Keep chasing the light!

John

 

[Just Looking]

People have beaten on this colorspace issue some already, but I'm not sure anyone really said the key thing: never upload to pbase in any color space other than sRGB.

Why? Two reasons:

(1) Your original file, even if it has an embedded profile correctly identifying its color space, will be treated as sRGB by most web browsers, so it will show up looking bad (in particular, with "ashen" skin tones).

(2) Any pbase resized file such as the "large" will be missing the profile, so it is guaranteed to be displayed with incorrect colors.

So upload only sRGB to pbase. Save your AdobeRGB for when you are sure of being able to control a complete and correct color-managed workflow.

If you don't understand this stuff already, it is almost certainly a mistake for you to ever be using AdobeRGB.

j

 

[Just Looking]

your original file says it was last edited by Photoshop CS and it has an embedded profile of AdobeRGB. Check your color settings. If you've selected the "prepress defaults" you may have chosen to convert to AdobeRGB with knowing it.

j

 

[Mark Gillett]

picture of my friend that I uploaded to my web address:



exact same picture uploaded to pbase

http://www.pbase.com/chriscupp/image/38429759/original

is it me or is the image totally changed? It seems the color has
totally shifted and I hate the image on pbase...
please correct me if I am wrong. I haven't calibrated my monitor
in a couple of months so maybe it's off??

just curious.

chris

--
http://www.pbase.com/chriscupp

--
http://www.pbase.com/markgillett

 

[Wire Moore]

It's seems a lot of people have no idea what's going on in this case, so let me try to clear it up. Those of you that do know what's going on, I'd appreciate a check for clarity and accuracy and of course any other helpful observations.

The reason some people see a difference and some don't has to do several factors:

a) differences between how viewer applications (and OS traditions) handle color when rendering to the screen

b) that some images presented contain an EXIF tag for a non-sRGB color space and some don't

c) that one of the examples posted is a side-by-side created to illustrate the differences in rendering AdobeRGB and sRGB color spaces.

Some background: A formal RGB color space is like a dictionary. It says that when you use this RGB value you should expect this "color" as defined by an industry standard map of human color perception. For historical reasons related to the evolution of computerized imaging, the world of color revolves around RGB--and to a lesser extent CMYK-- and not the map of human perception, even though the latter was invented decades before the former. (At moments like this, the image of Bill Gates' big head always appears and bobs around in my temporal lobes.)

sRGB is a formal space that's the closest we've got to a standard for the internet. sRGB is nearly interchangeable with a well-performing Windows-PC display. This is by design! Windows is by far the most popular platform; a 'defacto standard'. And Windows has traditionally had very weak support for color management. This leads to the rule that if you want to try to be color compatible in public you put your data into the sRGB color space. (You should note that a Windows PC display is very close to color behavior of color television, because TV technology is the basis for cheap monitors. So if you investigate the matter of RGB color working spaces further, you will run into details of the design of color TV.) sRGB color space codifies a de-facto standard into an 'actual standard'. For the rest of this diatribe read "public" to mean Windows-oriented.

CMYK: if you were participating in the part of the industry that hails from print publishing, you tended to think in terms of CMYK, and you came to find that thinking this was was never going to get you anywhere with "the public" nor with broadly standardized color representations because there is no advantage to a formal CMYK working space. But color printers can make colors that typical displays can't quite map, so a leader in computerized tools for print publishing formalized Adobe RGB, which has a little more gamut extent for to cover the far reaches of the subtractive primaries missed by sRGB.

And finally in this background, the term "monitor space" should be noted. It referes to the actual performance of a given display in a specific sense, and this usually is not perfectly equal to sRGB. sRGB is the maypole we all dance around because actual monitors are so unpredictable. Note to Mac users: you may see what's made for the web as too light. Apple designed it's early display standard with the behavior of some desktop printing technologies instead of cheap monitors. Even today, the Mac's out-of-the-box monitor space is quite wrong for participation in "public". So I encourage you to use the "Displays" control panel calibrator or other utility to set your display to gamma 2.2 instead of the Mac's native 1.8. And don't bother arguing about which one is better. If you feel the need to argue, remember Beta vs. VHS. Eventually MiniDV and DVD came along and made all the harranging about big, fat video tapes now seem stupid.

OK now that this background is out of the way. The original post asked "do you see a difference?" This was an inadvertant trick question, because whether you will or not depends on how you use Pbase to look at the image as well as the OS and viewer application you are using to look at the samples. Some users computers will show a difference and some won't because sometimes the image data are tagged with a non-sRGB color space and sometimes not, while some applicationss observe the tag and some dont't!

All this stems from the fact that the original poster works in Adobe RGB. And It's not important that a color profile is attached to the image, nor is it important in which color space the actual data are coded, only that the EXIF tag for profile differs from the "public" standard. Those applications that do monitor compensation will show the data converted from the tagged space to the monitor space (in this case richer and warmer), and those that don't will present in the monitor space. And if the image has no tag it stays in the monitor space, which is best matched by sRGB. The images that Pbase generates automatically apparently are not tagged. And it is this quality that leads to the original post.

One question that grows out of this is for those that did not see a difference: Is what you saw what the original poster intended? I will leave the answer to the diligent reader...

It comes down to this, if you are interested in color management and use it intentionally, be sure to convert non-sRGB images to sRGB before posting them to the web or email or embedding them in presentations, or sending them to Ofoto. You need to do this explicitly. If you are color mangement agnostic and prefer not to be bothered, use sRGB for everything. For some of you this means flipping the 20D Color Space menu setting back to sRGB and choosing "Optimized for Web" in PS Elements Color Settings.

Important!!! In PS CS, Save for Web does not convert to sRGB. Using Save for Web causes the data to be tagged with the working space of the image. And keep in mind that if "Do not color manage this document" was chosen in an "Assign Profile..." command, the image is tagged with the default RGB Working Space in effect under "Color Settings...". If this is other than sRGB you are heading for an episode like the one that got this thread started.

 

[jackkurtz]

they seem nearly identical to me.

picture of my friend that I uploaded to my web address:



exact same picture uploaded to pbase



is it me or is the image totally changed? It seems the color has
totally shifted and I hate the image on pbase...
please correct me if I am wrong. I haven't calibrated my monitor
in a couple of months so maybe it's off??

just curious.

chris

--
http://www.pbase.com/chriscupp

--
http://www.pbase.com/chriscupp

 

[IRISH GENE]

picture of my friend that I uploaded to my web address:



exact same picture uploaded to pbase

http://www.pbase.com/chriscupp/image/38429759/original

is it me or is the image totally changed? It seems the color has
totally shifted and I hate the image on pbase...
please correct me if I am wrong. I haven't calibrated my monitor
in a couple of months so maybe it's off??

just curious.

chris

--
http://www.pbase.com/chriscupp

-chris, like everyone else it looks the same to me .

i really liked the infred pictures on your website , what kind of filter did you use ?

IRISH GENE

 

[Arglebargle]

I copied each picture, pasted them on top of each other in Photoshop, changed the top blending mode to difference, and it turned pure black. I flattened it and used levels and could find no areas that were not pure black. That means they are identical, well unless Photoshop converted the color space by default, I'll have to check that.

picture of my friend that I uploaded to my web address:



exact same picture uploaded to pbase

http://www.pbase.com/chriscupp/image/38429759/original

is it me or is the image totally changed? It seems the color has
totally shifted and I hate the image on pbase...
please correct me if I am wrong. I haven't calibrated my monitor
in a couple of months so maybe it's off??

just curious.

chris

--
http://www.pbase.com/chriscupp

 

[Arglebargle]

Alright I double checked they are both in Adobe RGB, which probably explains the difference. Convert the profile to sRGB before uploading to PBASE.

picture of my friend that I uploaded to my web address:



exact same picture uploaded to pbase

http://www.pbase.com/chriscupp/image/38429759/original

is it me or is the image totally changed? It seems the color has
totally shifted and I hate the image on pbase...
please correct me if I am wrong. I haven't calibrated my monitor
in a couple of months so maybe it's off??

just curious.

chris

--
http://www.pbase.com/chriscupp

 

[Just Looking]

It's the same file in both cases. If you think it looks the same, that's why. If you think they look different, you're looking at the wrong file (e.g. the pbase "large" instead of "original"). So stop already with the replies!!!

The pbase "large" looks different because pbase discards the AdobeRGB profile when resizing it. If it looks the same to you, it's because your browser ignores profiles. End of story.

j

picture of my friend that I uploaded to my web address:



exact same picture uploaded to pbase

http://www.pbase.com/chriscupp/image/38429759/original

is it me or is the image totally changed? It seems the color has
totally shifted and I hate the image on pbase...
please correct me if I am wrong. I haven't calibrated my monitor
in a couple of months so maybe it's off??

just curious.

chris

--
http://www.pbase.com/chriscupp

 

[Just Looking]

I downloaded all three to my PC.

1. from your web site
2. from pbase (original)
3. from pbase (large)

1. 3 is 40K and other two are 96K.

When viewed in IE6, all three looked identical as far the skin tone
is concerned.

When viewed with XP's Picture and Fax viewer, I could see the skin
tone difference between 1 and 3 and 2 and 3. 1 and 2 were
identical.

When brought into PSCS, it showed that #1 and #2 are associated
with Adobe 1998 profile and #3 was with sRGB.

It looks like IE6 is not aRGB aware but XP's Picture and Fax viewer
is.

It's not aRGB it needs to be aware of, it's ICC profiles.

Interestingly, Irfanview is not aRGB aware either as it showed all
three with the same bad skin tone.

That's because the colors are identical, and identically all wrong, if the AdobeRGB profile is ignored and all are interpreted as sRGB.

j

 

[chriscupp]

My ir pics were taken on a Sony F828 with a Hoya r72 and ND4+8 filters. Converted to b&w (I hate color IR shots) and resized for web viewing.

I'm glad you enjoyed my incomplete gallery. I seem to find new IR pics all the time, I just need to upload them.

chris

--
http://www.pbase.com/chriscupp

 

[Shelby Lewis]

.... and see the difference on my monitor in the "second" post.

What's even freakier is that sometimes when I post pics here that are linked from pbase, the color appears differently on whether you view them embedded in the post, or in a new window.
-
cheers,
Shelby
musician, architecture student, Dad

 

[mford]

this happened to me too.

this is the solution: in photoshop, convert your image to sRGB color space before you upload to pbase. either that or shoot only in sRGB

browsers can only display sRGB. it has nothing to do with pbase. so whatever adobe rgb image you post here would look the same as the one you have on pbase.

picture of my friend that I uploaded to my web address:



exact same picture uploaded to pbase

http://www.pbase.com/chriscupp/image/38429759/original

is it me or is the image totally changed? It seems the color has
totally shifted and I hate the image on pbase...
please correct me if I am wrong. I haven't calibrated my monitor
in a couple of months so maybe it's off??

just curious.

chris

--
http://www.pbase.com/chriscupp

--
Mark
http://www.pbase.com/mford

 

[Just Looking]

this is the solution: in photoshop, convert your image to sRGB
color space before you upload to pbase. either that or shoot only
in sRGB

I agree with your proposed solution. However...

browsers can only display sRGB. it has nothing to do with pbase.
so whatever adobe rgb image you post here would look the same as
the one you have on pbase.

Some browsers DO respect embedded profiles and do the appropriate mappings to correctly display color. But you can't count on it in general, so only sRGB is really safe to use on the web to convey your image.

Furthermore, it DOES have something to do with pbase in some cases. The "original" image that you upload will be served back exactly (if it's a JPEG, at least), including the original embedded profile that will make some browsers to the right thing. However, all other sizes served up by pbase will be missing the profile, so will be interpreted as sRGB by essentially ALL browsers (except maybe not on Mac).

j

 

[Wire Moore]

this happened to me too.

this is the solution: in photoshop, convert your image to sRGB
color space before you upload to pbase. either that or shoot only
in sRGB

browsers can only display sRGB. it has nothing to do with pbase.
so whatever adobe rgb image you post here would look the same as
the one you have on pbase.

I know you intend to be helpful, but the statement "browsers can only display sRGB" is not true. Many, many browsers display in monitor space. sRGB is a formail standard that is closely matched to Windows PC monitors, but is normalized in ways that many monitors, especially CRT, are not making it useful as a working space. One of the most important features of a working space is that gray is defined as equality of the RGB values (13,13,13 or 167,167,167) and that the white-point conforms well with human vision. For many years CRT monitors were made quite blue to get the brightness up, and early LCDs have hugely variable white rendering. Also, if you are using a Mac, the normal tone curve for the monitor is gamma 1.8, which renders sRGB (gamma 2.2) data as if a lightness adjustment had been applied, lacking contrast. This is very non-conformant with sRGB. But sRGB is about HP and Microsoft and ... --PC Companies.

To add to the confusion, some browsers observe profiles in the images and others don't. For many years IE for Mac has had a display-using-colorsync option which performed conversion from file space to monitor space. Now the whole Mac graphics API can observe color management and there are complex polices, which at least are formalized if you read Apple's tech literature. Yet in spite of this, some applications like the Firefox browser on Mac behave differnently Apple's official browser, Safari, even though these apps share a lot of rendering engine code. I don't know if Windows IE6 is observing profile tags or not; some of the posts on this thread lead me to suspect that it does.

So the reason to go to sRGB is not because all browsers observe it. They don't at all. The reason is because by going to sRGB you maximize the chance of the user seeing the image as you do, especially for non-color managed OS and apps, which still are by far the most common, and the color-managed ones will work well anyway.

-wire

 

[marianco]

Perhaps you are using an LCD monitor. If that is the case, then one side of your LCD can look different from the other because of the viewing angle.

picture of my friend that I uploaded to my web address:



exact same picture uploaded to pbase

http://www.pbase.com/chriscupp/image/38429759/original

is it me or is the image totally changed? It seems the color has
totally shifted and I hate the image on pbase...
please correct me if I am wrong. I haven't calibrated my monitor
in a couple of months so maybe it's off??

just curious.

chris

--
http://www.pbase.com/chriscupp

 

[chriscupp]

Here is the link to the original image on pbase:
http://www.pbase.com/chriscupp/image/38429759
Here is the newly uploaded one:
http://www.pbase.com/chriscupp/image/38511733/original

I did not embed the images on this post because it will come out normal so I am forcing you to look, if you choose to, to see the differences which there is.

I did not know that if you shoot raw that your images were embedded with the Adobe RGB profile even though my profile for my 20D is sRGB.
Crazy

chris

o, thanks for all the replies!

picture of my friend that I uploaded to my web address:



exact same picture uploaded to pbase

http://www.pbase.com/chriscupp/image/38429759/original

is it me or is the image totally changed? It seems the color has
totally shifted and I hate the image on pbase...
please correct me if I am wrong. I haven't calibrated my monitor
in a couple of months so maybe it's off??

just curious.

chris

--
http://www.pbase.com/chriscupp

--
http://www.pbase.com/chriscupp

 

[Just Looking]

Here is the link to the original image on pbase:
http://www.pbase.com/chriscupp/image/38429759
Here is the newly uploaded one:
http://www.pbase.com/chriscupp/image/38511733/original

I did not embed the images on this post because it will come out
normal so I am forcing you to look, if you choose to, to see the
differences which there is.

I did not know that if you shoot raw that your images were embedded
with the Adobe RGB profile even though my profile for my 20D is
sRGB.
Crazy

The colorspace choice is controlled by your raw converter, or perhaps by Photoshop CS which you used on the image before posting it. It has nothing to do with the camera or the raw file itself.

What did you change to fix it?

j