This banding discussion is beyond my understanding

[MitchAlsup]

Ok, let's get this straight. Noise is entirely random. Lines are
not random. Lines are not noise. Noise does not produce lines.

While it is within the definition to relegate 'noise' to random signal varriations; it is ALSO within the definition of 'noise' for anything other than the desired image itself to be considered 'noise'.

Actually, if you bother to look at the images with 'banding' you will find that the pattern is 2 dimensional, both horizontal and vertical. That is it is NOT banding, but a 2 dimensional pattern noise. In fact, my 20D has almost the exact pattern as does Christian Buil (google him). He shows an image that contains the backdrop of this noise in an easy to view manner. And he goes further and BOTHERS to subtract another image with no signal and shows the ressulting flat rield result. 95%+ of the pattern nosie is gone (ahem::banding). If banding bothers you learn to conquer it.

So what we are talking about is a camera that generates very low
contrast lines in all of it's images at all ISOs, in any region of
the image that is sufficiently dark. You think that's ok. I don't.

Then learn how to get rid of it.

Again, these lines are not lines in the noise, they are lines in
the image data

Pure wordsmithing. Everything IS in the image data, the image data itself, The possion noise data, the thermal noise data, the pattern noise data, and the 1/f noise data.
.

An explanation is not justification. The camera
should be designed to eliminate this sort of interference. If it
isn't, it's a defect.

So, any automobile that doesn not actively prevent accidents is defective?

My G3 doesn't have lines in the image data,
and it cost a hell of a lot less.

Fine, then go and use it.

The 20D uses four ciruits to improve the speed
of data processing, and slight differences in their electrical
calibration will result in - you guess it - stripes in the picture.

Nope:: the different amplifiers read different quadrents of the sensor. If the amplifiers were out of calibration a whole quadrant would be higher in noise.

I think the pattern is partially in the 1 transistor amplifiers in the sensor cells themselves, and another is in the amplifier at the 'top' of a column. Still another results from minor varriations of timing due to the construction of the row decoders in the sensor.

If it is so obvious to you that 'slight differences in their
calibration' can lead to visible stripes in the picture, shouldn't
it be all the more obvious the the folks that built the camera?

It would have been, but As seen above, these are not the suspected components.

Shouldn't they have been able to fix it so that such things don't
happen? Don't they have a responsibility to fix it now?

A weak maybe at best.

I love the quality of my 20D at ISO 1600, and I am sure that I
could find some so-called "banding" in my underexposed shots if I
cared to crop dark parts and do a levels correction to lighten them
up.

I doubt you'd even have to do the level correction.

People, get a life - or better: Shoot pictures, print them, hang
them into your living-rooms and enjoy them. Just don't print those
100%-crops of shadows with auto-levels and especially don't hang
them into your living-room

You just don't get it. These lines will be viewable even in
prints. If not in a 4x6, then an 8x10, and it does not require
underexposure or autolevels. You could easily take a perfectly
exposed picture at 3200 ISO, print an 8x10 and see the lines. This
could also happen at 1600 ISO, though it's less likely.

Just a few years ago, to get ISO 3200 we had to bake our films in a hydrogen enriched gas mixture. Now all you have to do is dial up the intermediate amplifier gain. And you believe ou have the right to complain it doesn't work well enough.

Do you know that at ISO 3200 you get 2 A/D counts for each e- in a sensor cell! Why not complain that the A/D can't distingush between 1 e- and 1.3 e- in a cell? Know what, you can't get a fraction of an e- in a cell!

Case in point:: I have many images that COULD have shown banding if I didn't bother to set the black point ever so slightly high after pushing the shadow data up with levels. So, at least for my own images, when I see banding, I can get rid of it.

In addition (after reading Christian Buils web site) and for the last 300 images (5 days), I have been using automatic noise reduction. This does a commendable job of eliminating the pattern noise.

So, once again, we see that if it bothers you, YOU CAN get rid of it. And you can get rid of it a lot faster and for a lot less grief than by simply complaining (forever). After you get used to the added load in the workflow, its just a couple more seconds per image.

And I do shoot, I shoot a lot. The banding issue forces me too
avoid 3200 ISO almost entirely, an advertised capability of my
camera, one of the primary reasons I bought it. It also forces me
to take a lot more shots at lower ISOs because I know that exposure
had better be dead on, or else I risk finding banding in the
shadows during post processing.

The noise performance of my 20D (even with my pattern noise) is so good, I don't bother with resetting the ISO most of the time. I shoot at 100 and push the image in DPP and PS. The only difference is the amount of noise from the intermedate amplifier.

--
Mitch

 

[Derek Hawkins]

have to try some pictures with the lens cap on and push my levels
to the extreme so I can get Canon to fix it.

Never mind, you won't be the first to claim no banding then recant later.

I haven't seen it in mine yet, but since it's been annouced I'll
have to try some pictures with the lens cap on and push my levels
to the extreme so I can get Canon to fix it.

....of the discussion. This is an issue created by gadget
freaks and hopeless amateur hacks who expect their expensive
digital camera to be a "magic bullet" that produces pro-quality
images with every press of the button. Skill and knowledge have
nothing to do with it. Understanding of the imaging process and
how to properly expose, post-process and print images have nothing
to do with it. No matter what, their magic wundercams must
produce NatGeo images under any condition or they are being ripped
off by the camera company.

LCD screen on the back canted by 1 degree? Crime of the century!!
Poor technique resulting in out of focus pictures? It's Canon's
fault. Camera has a problem and needs to be repaired, and Canon
service says "Send it in!" ??? How horrible-- They didn't send
a helicopter to deliver a loaner. After all, these freaks are
the center of the universe and anything that comes up short is
someone elses fault, isn't it?

If you build it, they will complain.

 

[keaggy220]

My point is I've taken hundreds and hundreds of shots (several at high ISO's, but not pushed to extremes) and I'm perfectly happy with this camera. If I find banding on picture number 1000 I'm still going to be happy. After all, 1 out of every 1000 pictures is 1/10% failure. Maybe my expectations are too low.

I think 99 % of 20D owners are having a similar experience as mine.

have to try some pictures with the lens cap on and push my levels
to the extreme so I can get Canon to fix it.

Never mind, you won't be the first to claim no banding then recant
later.

I haven't seen it in mine yet, but since it's been annouced I'll
have to try some pictures with the lens cap on and push my levels
to the extreme so I can get Canon to fix it.

....of the discussion. This is an issue created by gadget
freaks and hopeless amateur hacks who expect their expensive
digital camera to be a "magic bullet" that produces pro-quality
images with every press of the button. Skill and knowledge have
nothing to do with it. Understanding of the imaging process and
how to properly expose, post-process and print images have nothing
to do with it. No matter what, their magic wundercams must
produce NatGeo images under any condition or they are being ripped
off by the camera company.

LCD screen on the back canted by 1 degree? Crime of the century!!
Poor technique resulting in out of focus pictures? It's Canon's
fault. Camera has a problem and needs to be repaired, and Canon
service says "Send it in!" ??? How horrible-- They didn't send
a helicopter to deliver a loaner. After all, these freaks are
the center of the universe and anything that comes up short is
someone elses fault, isn't it?

If you build it, they will complain.

 

[Detlev Rackow]

I have shot a lot of 1600 ASA-pictures, and they shot very low noise in general, and it is not visible in 8x12-prints.

From what I have seen at Dforum and from friend's cameras, theirs show very clear 1600 ASA-exposures as well.

You can ruin any picture by performing levelscorrections in the shadows. That is why you should expose properly.

Bye,

Detlev

 

[jeff stanley]

My point is I've taken hundreds and hundreds of shots (several at
high ISO's, but not pushed to extremes) and I'm perfectly happy
with this camera. If I find banding on picture number 1000 I'm
still going to be happy. After all, 1 out of every 1000 pictures
is 1/10% failure. Maybe my expectations are too low.

I think 99 % of 20D owners are having a similar experience as mine.

I agree, you have probably noticed that its the same posters over and over
that are complaining about this (defect, banding, noise, limitation) or what
ever they decide to call it. I prefer limitation.

If you think the camera has more limitations than you expected then
exchange or return. Its obvious to me that the majority are not having
this (limitation).

respectfully,

JS

 

[HMetal]

The amount of ignorance coming from people that don't experience, of understand, the banding issue and its lack of significance in 20D cousins (Digital Rebel) and siblings (10D) just astounds me.

We don't complain about the banding in the 20D for the good of our health nor do we do it because we're "measurbators" and don't take real photos.

Have you used any other camera with a DIGIC processor? If so, you would know that under ISOs 1600 and 3200, there are NO banding issues. Sure, there is noise, LOTS of chroma noise at these high ISOs.

However, the 20D is the only Canon dSLR that suffers from this banding issue at present. The Digital Rebel, at 1600 (and at 3200 if you use the Wasia hack) absolutely DOES NOT have a banding problem.

Because of this lack of banding in a (as commonly stated) "non professional" camera such as the Digital Rebel, one might expect even LESS noise and AT LEAST the absence of banding as we saw with the Rebel.

That's not too much to ask. In fact, it is something that, personally, I demand, and I'll keep bringing it up and bugging Canon about it until either its fixed or until I grow out of the 20D.

In the meantime, however, I'll be taking some darned good lower ISO photos as well.

--
Ray A. Akey
http://www.fanatixx.com

 

[Derek Hawkins]

Maybe my expectations are too low.

And possibly the rest of the 99% you mention. Read this post;

http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1019&message=11582146

I think 99 % of 20D owners are having a similar experience as mine.

have to try some pictures with the lens cap on and push my levels
to the extreme so I can get Canon to fix it.

Never mind, you won't be the first to claim no banding then recant
later.

I haven't seen it in mine yet, but since it's been annouced I'll
have to try some pictures with the lens cap on and push my levels
to the extreme so I can get Canon to fix it.

....of the discussion. This is an issue created by gadget
freaks and hopeless amateur hacks who expect their expensive
digital camera to be a "magic bullet" that produces pro-quality
images with every press of the button. Skill and knowledge have
nothing to do with it. Understanding of the imaging process and
how to properly expose, post-process and print images have nothing
to do with it. No matter what, their magic wundercams must
produce NatGeo images under any condition or they are being ripped
off by the camera company.

LCD screen on the back canted by 1 degree? Crime of the century!!
Poor technique resulting in out of focus pictures? It's Canon's
fault. Camera has a problem and needs to be repaired, and Canon
service says "Send it in!" ??? How horrible-- They didn't send
a helicopter to deliver a loaner. After all, these freaks are
the center of the universe and anything that comes up short is
someone elses fault, isn't it?

If you build it, they will complain.

 

[Derek Hawkins]

Read this post;

http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1019&message=11582146

My point is I've taken hundreds and hundreds of shots (several at
high ISO's, but not pushed to extremes) and I'm perfectly happy
with this camera. If I find banding on picture number 1000 I'm
still going to be happy. After all, 1 out of every 1000 pictures
is 1/10% failure. Maybe my expectations are too low.

I think 99 % of 20D owners are having a similar experience as mine.

I agree, you have probably noticed that its the same posters over
and over
that are complaining about this (defect, banding, noise,
limitation) or what
ever they decide to call it. I prefer limitation.

If you think the camera has more limitations than you expected then
exchange or return. Its obvious to me that the majority are not
having
this (limitation).

respectfully,

JS

 

[Derek Hawkins]

Those who are affected by it have all the right to complain and to do so as many times they wish where and in a manner so allowed. Those who aren't affected by it have the same right to rebut these complaints where and in a manner so allowed. However, those who complain do so with a purpose in mind and that is to influence Canon in providing a fix, the same fix that would be extended to those rebutting the complaints, whether they think they need it or not.

I have shot a lot of 1600 ASA-pictures, and they shot very low
noise in general, and it is not visible in 8x12-prints.

From what I have seen at Dforum and from friend's cameras, theirs
show very clear 1600 ASA-exposures as well.

You can ruin any picture by performing levelscorrections in the
shadows. That is why you should expose properly.

Bye,

Detlev

 

[Derek Hawkins]

will help "ward" off those trying to shut you up since your Canon fix is my Canon fix and theirs too (shades of survival alliances, LOL!). It can only make the camera better. Trying to tone down complaints serves no purpose whatsoever especially in this case since we all want a better camera regardless how good the current one is.

The amount of ignorance coming from people that don't experience,
of understand, the banding issue and its lack of significance in
20D cousins (Digital Rebel) and siblings (10D) just astounds me.

We don't complain about the banding in the 20D for the good of our
health nor do we do it because we're "measurbators" and don't take
real photos.

Have you used any other camera with a DIGIC processor? If so, you
would know that under ISOs 1600 and 3200, there are NO banding
issues. Sure, there is noise, LOTS of chroma noise at these high
ISOs.

However, the 20D is the only Canon dSLR that suffers from this
banding issue at present. The Digital Rebel, at 1600 (and at 3200
if you use the Wasia hack) absolutely DOES NOT have a banding
problem.

Because of this lack of banding in a (as commonly stated) "non
professional" camera such as the Digital Rebel, one might expect
even LESS noise and AT LEAST the absence of banding as we saw with
the Rebel.

That's not too much to ask. In fact, it is something that,
personally, I demand, and I'll keep bringing it up and bugging
Canon about it until either its fixed or until I grow out of the
20D.

In the meantime, however, I'll be taking some darned good lower ISO
photos as well.

--
Ray A. Akey
http://www.fanatixx.com

 

[UnderWater]

It is normal and a matter of applied physics that picture quality
decreases with higher sensitivity, and that the effect shows
especially in dark parts of the picture.

The 20D has less noise at high senstities than any other camera I
have ever used, and the fact that this noise is somewhat
horizontally-oriented does not make the absolute amount of noise
bad.

Every photographer shooting slides with available light would be
envious about the quality of those "unusable banding-destroyed
shots" that get so much attention.

The fact that there is a viewable pattern in the noise is nothing
sensational, and easily explained by the fact that a large part of
the noise is produced in the circuitry which reads the cells of the
sensor sequentially. The 20D uses four ciruits to improve the speed
of data processing, and slight differences in their electrical
calibration will result in - you guess it - stripes in the picture.

I love the quality of my 20D at ISO 1600, and I am sure that I
could find some so-called "banding" in my underexposed shots if I
cared to crop dark parts and do a levels correction to lighten them
up.

People, get a life - or better: Shoot pictures, print them, hang
them into your living-rooms and enjoy them. Just don't print those
100%-crops of shadows with auto-levels and especially don't hang
them into your living-room

Bye,

Detlev
--
It said, 'Insert disk #3,' but only two will fit!

--
--len

 

[Grant Y]

The amount of ignorance coming from people that don't experience,
of understand, the banding issue and its lack of significance in
20D cousins (Digital Rebel) and siblings (10D) just astounds me.

That's an arrogant an disingenuous statement ... although it's just one of many. I'll spare you my recounting of the other eggregious examples.

If we don't complain of the problem we are:

amateurs
lack courage
are afraid to speak since we spent so much money
oblivious to the more intelligent and sensitive of the group
ignorant
stupid
lack understanding
have poor monitors
have poor monitor calibration
don't understand digital photography
never owned a Rebel (as if that makes a diff)
never had a film darkroom
smell bad generally
have glass eyes, or none
.. what?

Frankly, the discussion has become so poisoned it's meaningless. Now everyone and their mother in law are posting clearly bad images, grossly puffed up in exposure, levels, curves, shadow, whatever, in PS to prove that they too are members of the banded elite, since anyone that doesn't join has obvious gene pool problems ..

I keep hoping the weather will improve ... so more folks will get outside.
---------------
Grant

 

[Detlev Rackow]

However I did not complain on http://www.240sx.org but went to my dealer and Nissan replaced it in the warranty period.

This was an effective solution.

Collecting shots of banding at 1600 underexposed and brightened up in Photoshop is no solution. If someone has a faulty camera, he should send it to Canon.

I am not the saviour of the grale, but I have seen lots of high-iso shots from my own and some other 20Ds, and they showed normal quality. In fact, most shots that illustrated a problem were exposed and processed in a way that would give bad results in any other camera as well.

I concede that the noise in other cameras is sometimes more random than in the 20D, but the fact that someone uses his camera in a way that is certain to produce bad quality and then complains about the way the quality is still beyond my understanding.

Bye,

Detlev

PS: There will be no further comments from me in this thread, feel free to answer anyway

 

[Derek Hawkins]

I'll stop short of using the actual word but it's quite obvious that either you don't read or you don't comprehend. Unless the banding is really severe, which is rare, Canon has no fix as yet. Canon service has already told some users not to send their cameras in for the banding issue since they have no fix at this time. Those who sent theirs in are probably waiting in vain unless it was a severe case (even at lower ISO). Go read and cut the comedy.

However I did not complain on http://www.240sx.org but went to my dealer
and Nissan replaced it in the warranty period.

This was an effective solution.

Collecting shots of banding at 1600 underexposed and brightened up
in Photoshop is no solution. If someone has a faulty camera, he
should send it to Canon.

I am not the saviour of the grale, but I have seen lots of high-iso
shots from my own and some other 20Ds, and they showed normal
quality. In fact, most shots that illustrated a problem were
exposed and processed in a way that would give bad results in any
other camera as well.

I concede that the noise in other cameras is sometimes more random
than in the 20D, but the fact that someone uses his camera in a way
that is certain to produce bad quality and then complains about the
way the quality is still beyond my understanding.

Bye,

Detlev
PS: There will be no further comments from me in this thread, feel
free to answer anyway

 

[DD2.1]

Please do us all a favor and take the f'in camera back. Since it obviously is defective and shows a minor imaging shortcoming in a very restricted, seldom-used area of operation, but works beautifully in 99% of imaging situations, it's obviously a Horrible Conspiracy by Japanese Industrial Meglomanics bent on world domination.

We know the camera bands under certain conditions. If you can't work with that, take it back and buy something else, and not Canon please. Then the nit-picking gadget freaks can go on the Sigma or Nikon or Kodak forum.

 

[Vsevolod]

I'll try to be straight:
1) My D20 produces usable 1600 shots - it's great.
2) Still it shows banding in dark area. My D30 does not.

3) I shots performaces in available darkness and background is usually very dark. I set exposure by face, not dark background.

4) I cannot use convertion filters (not enough light!) so I set WB to 2400 or something when converting raws. So, banding @800-1600 in amplified blue channel is quite visible in real photos. Never tried 3200.

5) It's ironic because I does not get 1D because of its banding but bought 20D instead ))

I quite happy with 20D but it is problem should be solved - at least in next consumer dslr.

Banding's sample (amplified blue channel arund micrphone):



--
Vsevolod

 

[DD2.1]

..... to think that Canon has a squadron of people watching these forums to rush the complaints back to the factory. Honest, they could really care less. What they do watch are the complaints to their service centers and their own web sites, and the service/CA reports coming in from their service centers. If you are not talking to Canon, as much as I hate to stoop to symbolism, you are jerking off.

I have shot a lot of 1600 ASA-pictures, and they shot very low
noise in general, and it is not visible in 8x12-prints.

From what I have seen at Dforum and from friend's cameras, theirs
show very clear 1600 ASA-exposures as well.

You can ruin any picture by performing levelscorrections in the
shadows. That is why you should expose properly.

Bye,

Detlev

 

[DD2.1]

The amount of ignorance coming from people that don't experience,
of understand, the banding issue and its lack of significance in
20D cousins (Digital Rebel) and siblings (10D) just astounds me.
Have you used any other camera with a DIGIC processor?

If so, you
would know that under ISOs 1600 and 3200, there are NO banding
issues. Sure, there is noise, LOTS of chroma noise at these high
ISOs.

Ray, you need to get your head out of whatever dark place it is stuck. Toodle over to the 1D/1Ds forum and look up banding for a start.

Guess what? Most of those complaints are based on the same poor shooting and post-production "technique."

 

[keaggy220]

Wow, you have really become melodramatic and a little rude over this subject - which is a non-subject for the vast majority of 20D owners. I'm sorry your camera is suffering and that all of us happy 20D owners are so beneath your elevated sense of non-issues. I'm sorry that I'm ignorant enough to believe my 20D blows away my 10D at high ISO's and I'm sorry that a number of veteran reviewers have run tests that support this same misconception.

Keep sharing the gospel of how bad the 20D is compared to other DSLR's if you think it will somehow help you and that you may gain some converts to your important cause.

I haven't even downloaded the latest 20D firmware yet - haven't really seen the need...

The amount of ignorance coming from people that don't experience,
of understand, the banding issue and its lack of significance in
20D cousins (Digital Rebel) and siblings (10D) just astounds me.

We don't complain about the banding in the 20D for the good of our
health nor do we do it because we're "measurbators" and don't take
real photos.

Have you used any other camera with a DIGIC processor? If so, you
would know that under ISOs 1600 and 3200, there are NO banding
issues. Sure, there is noise, LOTS of chroma noise at these high
ISOs.

However, the 20D is the only Canon dSLR that suffers from this
banding issue at present. The Digital Rebel, at 1600 (and at 3200
if you use the Wasia hack) absolutely DOES NOT have a banding
problem.

Because of this lack of banding in a (as commonly stated) "non
professional" camera such as the Digital Rebel, one might expect
even LESS noise and AT LEAST the absence of banding as we saw with
the Rebel.

That's not too much to ask. In fact, it is something that,
personally, I demand, and I'll keep bringing it up and bugging
Canon about it until either its fixed or until I grow out of the
20D.

In the meantime, however, I'll be taking some darned good lower ISO
photos as well.

--
Ray A. Akey
http://www.fanatixx.com

 

[HMetal]

Hello Grant,

Arrogant? Not really, I just tire of people telling me (and others like me) that we aren't really experiencing a problem. That WE are the bad shooters that you claim that we accuse you of being.

It's actually quite the opposite, good sir. I don't have any prejudices against anyone else. I am just baffled that so many people, who apparently don't experience the banding problem(s), feel they need to shut up the majority of those who do.

If you don't experience the problem, it has nothing to do with your glass or any other external problem. I suspect this kind of nonsense regarding external equipment came about due to the (now firmware 1.1.0-fixed) high ISO flash problems.

While it may vary with experience, such as better or more experienced photographers can nail the exposure or use tripods/monopods, etc, to help keep their ISO higher, most of those situations where I have personally seen banding is while shooting wildlife under varying conditions.

Typically, I shoot in the late afternoon where available light is starting to wane (at least in the winter months, here in Canada). During the winter months, I use a higher ISO (400 and up, 3200 only on RARE occasion), and while I have had only one important shot ruined due to banding, that's one too many considering.

I don't know nor, honestly, do I care that others disagree with me on the banding phenomenon. What is important to me is that Canon is listening.

As for the Rebel, yes, to me it does make a difference but not for one of ownership but, rather, because if you had a Digital Rebel, you could do parallel tests to see if one experiences a problem (such as the banding problem). The Rebel is a fabulous piece of equipment. In fact, if it had the features that the 20D has (ignoring for a moment the higher resolution), I wouldn't have bothered to upgrade. I bought the 20D for one reason and one only - the AI Servo in any mode.

This is why I get irate and tout that the Rebel doesn't have banding issues. It doesn't and it peeves me off that the 20D does - end of story.

I can't speak for those countless others that purposely bump up clearly underexposed photos, but myself, I have experienced banding in photos with a perfect exposure/histogram. However, now that we're on the topic, the 20D definitely shows terrible banding at ISOs 1600 and 3200 when compared with the Rebel, exposures pushed to the point where both show a high level of noise. Granted, those are not "real world," photos and are a product of "measurbating," but they still illustrate that both the 20D and the Rebel have high ISO noise AND that the 20D has banding but the Digital Rebel has none.

As for arrogance, your own comment about "getting outside" hold more arrogance and prejudice than any of my comments. Especially considering I'm outside, shooting photos, more than inside "measurebating."

Anyways, I'm sure you'll agree to disagree.

I hope we both get what we want for New Years. You, for us measurbators to shut the hell up and me, the camera that I paid for .. just imagine, a fix from Canon would do BOTH!

That's an arrogant an disingenuous statement ... although it's just
one of many. I'll spare you my recounting of the other eggregious
examples.

If we don't complain of the problem we are:

...

Frankly, the discussion has become so poisoned it's meaningless.
Now everyone and their mother in law are posting clearly bad
images, grossly puffed up in exposure, levels, curves, shadow,
whatever, in PS to prove that they too are members of the banded
elite, since anyone that doesn't join has obvious gene pool
problems ..

I keep hoping the weather will improve ... so more folks will get
outside.

--
Ray A. Akey
http://www.fanatixx.com