A2 diagonal noise influenced by CF card

[boyd2]

Hi,

I've got an A2 with diagonal noise (and working to get it replaced).

But some time ago I read some speculation about the type of compactflash card, which could be a factor. Something about beat frequency, the combination of electronics and the card being a possible cause. (If someone knows more about the facts behind this, please be my guest

Anyway, I did a test, using different cards. All are 100% crops, you may have to enlarge the picture and/or put the monitor brightness up a bit. Look at the dark area's. (Some people have a hard time recognizing the diagonal noise, look for a patern of 'noise lines', under 45 degrees in this direction: / / / ).

The picture is unsharp on purpose, that's when the diagonal noise shows up best and also causes 'spikes' in unsharp lines and borders.

All pictures: on tripod, ISO 200, Manual exposure 1/3 sec. F2,8 28mm, extra fine JPG. I saved the crops with minimal compression (compression factor 1 in Paint Shop Pro 6).

Sandisk Ultra II 256 mb which I did buy this year. On the side: AR0404VYA CHINA



DigiCard 64 mb, age unknown, marked 6Q43B on the back



Dane-Elec 128 mb, about 2 years old, marked DA-COMFLASH - 128MB C 1 128 C - BE A SMM 1.00 > ;3210113752 on the back



Kodak 32 mb, 4 years old, unmarked



Whatever the card, the diagonal noise does not go away :-(

But there are slight differences, the old Kodak card is the best overall. The other cards vary a bit, depending on the area you look at.

So the card is a minor factor, but this seems not to depend on speed: The DigiCard (slow) is as bad or worse as the SanDisk Ultra II.

Well, I hope this is helpfull for some of you, for me it means I'm blaming my A2 and will try to get an other one.

This one is a 3241xxxx, bought in the Netherlands, which I updated to frimware 1.12. It already went back to the repair centre in Germany, and came back with the comment: "could not reproduce the complaint, cause must be external". Since I'm not radio-active or something, the card was the only external factor left and I can prove them wrong now.
What a hassle, just to get a decent camera ...

Bye, Boyd

 

[beyondalldoubt]

It looks to me that you are trying VERY hard to induce a situation where this phenomena can be observed. Where it is apparent, you have created an area of noise that could not possibly constitute a decent image anyway. In other words, no person who was trying to do anything but find fault with the camera would shoot in this lighting, ISO, etc...

I trust that I could produce a terrible image with my A2 as well, if I put that much effort into it. Rather, I apply my efforts to using the incredible capabilities of the A2 in the creation of beautiful images. I am certain that I could do the same with yours.

The external cause of this "fault" is the operator, sir. The A2 is marvelously able to advise you in the area of doing better work, if you are able to read the messages that it sends. Yours is trying to tell you to use supplemental lighting, clear focus, and the honest intent to produce good work. No manufactured item on earth can be warranted against deliberate misuse and ill intent. I hope KM mirrors my response.
http://www.procabbie.com

Hi,

I've got an A2 with diagonal noise (and working to get it replaced).
But some time ago I read some speculation about the type of
compactflash card, which could be a factor. Something about beat
frequency, the combination of electronics and the card being a
possible cause. (If someone knows more about the facts behind this,
please be my guest

Anyway, I did a test, using different cards. All are 100% crops,
you may have to enlarge the picture and/or put the monitor
brightness up a bit. Look at the dark area's. (Some people have a
hard time recognizing the diagonal noise, look for a patern of
'noise lines', under 45 degrees in this direction: / / / ).
The picture is unsharp on purpose, that's when the diagonal noise
shows up best and also causes 'spikes' in unsharp lines and borders.
All pictures: on tripod, ISO 200, Manual exposure 1/3 sec. F2,8
28mm, extra fine JPG. I saved the crops with minimal compression
(compression factor 1 in Paint Shop Pro 6).

Sandisk Ultra II 256 mb which I did buy this year. On the side:
AR0404VYA CHINA



DigiCard 64 mb, age unknown, marked 6Q43B on the back



Dane-Elec 128 mb, about 2 years old, marked DA-COMFLASH - 128MB C 1
128 C - BE A SMM 1.00 > ;3210113752 on the back



Kodak 32 mb, 4 years old, unmarked



Whatever the card, the diagonal noise does not go away :-(
But there are slight differences, the old Kodak card is the best
overall. The other cards vary a bit, depending on the area you look
at.
So the card is a minor factor, but this seems not to depend on
speed: The DigiCard (slow) is as bad or worse as the SanDisk Ultra
II.

Well, I hope this is helpfull for some of you, for me it means I'm
blaming my A2 and will try to get an other one.
This one is a 3241xxxx, bought in the Netherlands, which I updated
to frimware 1.12. It already went back to the repair centre in
Germany, and came back with the comment: "could not reproduce the
complaint, cause must be external". Since I'm not radio-active or
something, the card was the only external factor left and I can
prove them wrong now.
What a hassle, just to get a decent camera ...

Bye, Boyd

 

[KEITH-C]

It is one thing to be loyal & another to be unreasonable. The fact is that this camera should not have this particular noise problem - certainly not at ISO 200.

This demonstration was done in this way in order to illustrate the problem clearly. If a series of pictures had been selected at random there would have been comments that the tests were meaningless.

I ,for one, am interested in this problem which has been talked about since the A2's launch but so far there has been no official comment from KM as far as I know.

MR said that Adobe were working on a noise reduction solution but I don't know if that ever materialised. I have seen this type of interference pattern on poor TV broadcasts & it suggests that it is electronic in origin & there must be an identifiable cause & cure.

Km's comment that they could not reproduce this phenomenon was either disingenuous or perhaps they used a different card! This comparison raises that possibility & it would be interesting to hear from anyone who has met & cured this particular problem

Keith-C

 

[André BARELIER]

What does that mean ? Sorry, but I have to disagree. I too own an A2 with diagonal noise. I'm happy with it, and most of my pictures are great.
Look at this tread :
http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1024&message=10924207
BUT, sometimes, diagonal noise is truly an issue.

Look at this one : it is a 100% crop of an original shot. It was taken at 2.5 meters, with the onboard flash, 1/50 s, F/4 ISO 64.



With Noiseware, and post processing, I managed to get a picture wich I could print at 10x13 cm. No more.

I can't understand how a camera can most of the time do such a good job, and sometimes deliver such poor pictures.

What were the circumstances ? I don't know : the camera was not hot. The CF card was the same...

I think I 'll return my A2 for repair, because, if this noise issue is being solved by KM, then this camera will be my only one for years, because it is a fantastic camera, and it has all I need.
Cheers,
André

Hi,

I've got an A2 with diagonal noise (and working to get it replaced).
But some time ago I read some speculation about the type of
compactflash card, which could be a factor. Something about beat
frequency, the combination of electronics and the card being a
possible cause. (If someone knows more about the facts behind this,
please be my guest

Anyway, I did a test, using different cards. All are 100% crops,
you may have to enlarge the picture and/or put the monitor
brightness up a bit. Look at the dark area's. (Some people have a
hard time recognizing the diagonal noise, look for a patern of
'noise lines', under 45 degrees in this direction: / / / ).
The picture is unsharp on purpose, that's when the diagonal noise
shows up best and also causes 'spikes' in unsharp lines and borders.
All pictures: on tripod, ISO 200, Manual exposure 1/3 sec. F2,8
28mm, extra fine JPG. I saved the crops with minimal compression
(compression factor 1 in Paint Shop Pro 6).

Sandisk Ultra II 256 mb which I did buy this year. On the side:
AR0404VYA CHINA



DigiCard 64 mb, age unknown, marked 6Q43B on the back



Dane-Elec 128 mb, about 2 years old, marked DA-COMFLASH - 128MB C 1
128 C - BE A SMM 1.00 > ;3210113752 on the back



Kodak 32 mb, 4 years old, unmarked



Whatever the card, the diagonal noise does not go away :-(
But there are slight differences, the old Kodak card is the best
overall. The other cards vary a bit, depending on the area you look
at.
So the card is a minor factor, but this seems not to depend on
speed: The DigiCard (slow) is as bad or worse as the SanDisk Ultra
II.

Well, I hope this is helpfull for some of you, for me it means I'm
blaming my A2 and will try to get an other one.
This one is a 3241xxxx, bought in the Netherlands, which I updated
to frimware 1.12. It already went back to the repair centre in
Germany, and came back with the comment: "could not reproduce the
complaint, cause must be external". Since I'm not radio-active or
something, the card was the only external factor left and I can
prove them wrong now.
What a hassle, just to get a decent camera ...

Bye, Boyd

 

[John Bean (UK)]

MR said that Adobe were working on a noise reduction solution but I
don't know if that ever materialised. I have seen this type of
interference pattern on poor TV broadcasts & it suggests that it is
electronic in origin & there must be an identifiable cause & cure.

Yes, ACR removes the pattern during raw conversion. ACR 2.2 caused other problems while doing this but the current version (2.3) leaves no trace of "diagonal noise" and doesn't introduce any artifacts of its own.

From examples I've seen here my A2 is probably worse, but as I use only raw - converted with ACR - this isn't an issue for me.

--
Regards

John Bean

 

[boyd2]

It looks to me that you are trying VERY hard to induce a situation
where this phenomena can be observed. Where it is apparent, you
have created an area of noise that could not possibly constitute a
decent image anyway. In other words, no person who was trying to
do anything but find fault with the camera would shoot in this
lighting, ISO, etc...

) Not at all, I'm only illustrating a real live fault. And I did buy the A2 to use as a good reportage camera to be used with available light, for which it is very suitable (hand zoom, anti-shake, good low light EVF), not as a good weather tripod camera to be used at ISO 64 only. And I don't mind noise (which can be removed if needed). But this diagonal noise is a defect and shows up too often, preventing me to make decent prints.
BTW, even KM thinks ISO 200 is a normal speed, including it in the auto setting.

I trust that I could produce a terrible image with my A2 as well,
if I put that much effort into it. Rather, I apply my efforts to
using the incredible capabilities of the A2 in the creation of
beautiful images. I am certain that I could do the same with yours.
The external cause of this "fault" is the operator, sir. The A2 is
marvelously able to advise you in the area of doing better work, if
you are able to read the messages that it sends. Yours is trying
to tell you to use supplemental lighting, clear focus, and the
honest intent to produce good work. No manufactured item on earth
can be warranted against deliberate misuse and ill intent. I hope
KM mirrors my response.

'Misuse', 'ill intent', just taking a picture at 1/3 F2,8 and not using studio lighting? You must be kidding! I don't know about your spiritual gifts and your A2 talking to you, but mine does not. And I don't need a talking camera too, being a pro for 30 years. I'm sure even KM would not have you as a marketeer

What's more, the other 8 megapixel cameras using this CCD do not have diagonal noise and many A2's are also free of this fault.

Please don't waste your time on replies like this, be happy with your talking camera ;-)

Best, Boyd

 

[ziggy53]

I am not seeing this on two monitors. I checked first on a cheap 15" monitor and then on a 21" NEC (not cheap).

I just cannot find what you reference as diagonal noise.

ziggy53

 

[pmlegene]

I am not seeing this on two monitors. I checked first on a cheap
15" monitor and then on a 21" NEC (not cheap).

I don't see it either, on my very good 21" tube monitor. Place some arrows to show me that terrible thing !

--
Looking for excellent 'how-to' articles about Minolta's A2 from various authors?
See http://www.legene.com/a2

 

[jtkv]

I recommend that if you do not see the diagonal noise, then leave it at that, and be happy with your camera. Don't go looking for it....

Once you do see these defects, you will see them all the time, and start complaining and becoming unhappy....

The only solution for people complaining that their compact CCD camera has noise (what? Noise from a compact CCD? What a surprise!) is go to the DSLR route...

Jeff

I am not seeing this on two monitors. I checked first on a cheap
15" monitor and then on a 21" NEC (not cheap).

I don't see it either, on my very good 21" tube monitor. Place some
arrows to show me that terrible thing !

--
Looking for excellent 'how-to' articles about Minolta's A2 from
various authors?
See http://www.legene.com/a2

 

[boyd2]

I am not seeing this on two monitors. I checked first on a cheap
15" monitor and then on a 21" NEC (not cheap).

I don't see it either, on my very good 21" tube monitor. Place some
arrows to show me that terrible thing !

Are you shure you want this? Once you've seen it, you're lost
But OK, this is the SanDisk one again:



In fact it's in all area's below 'middle grey'. The arrow on the right points to visible 'spikes' in the unsharp monitor casing, illustrating that digital noise also spoils nice, wanted unsharpness.

BTW, this was not meant as discussion about diagonal noise. It's a simple fact many A2's have it. On this forum it was already demonstrated there are A2's out there without it. (Alas the pictures showing this have gone already at http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1024&message=7906438 )

I was only trying to find out the influence of the CF card used. It does, but the diagonal noise stays there.

Best, Boyd

 

[boyd2]

I recommend that if you do not see the diagonal noise, then leave
it at that, and be happy with your camera. Don't go looking for
it....

;-) Indeed.

The only solution for people complaining that their compact CCD
camera has noise (what? Noise from a compact CCD? What a surprise!)
is go to the DSLR route...

As said, I'm NOT complaining about noise in general. Can live with that, as I could with 'noise' from a high ISO film. This is about DIAGONAL NOISE, being a defect of many A2's and not a problem with the other 8 megapixels camera's using the same CCD.

Best, Boyd

 

[Godfrey]

What "pattern" are y'all talking about?

Sorry if I'm being dense, but I see no unusual patterns with my A2 at any ISO, and I'm finding it hard to discern a "diagonal noise pattern" in the pictures presented here.

Godfrey

MR said that Adobe were working on a noise reduction solution but I
don't know if that ever materialised. I have seen this type of
interference pattern on poor TV broadcasts & it suggests that it is
electronic in origin & there must be an identifiable cause & cure.

Yes, ACR removes the pattern during raw conversion. ACR 2.2 caused
other problems while doing this but the current version (2.3)
leaves no trace of "diagonal noise" and doesn't introduce any
artifacts of its own.

From examples I've seen here my A2 is probably worse, but as I use
only raw - converted with ACR - this isn't an issue for me.

--
Regards

John Bean

 

[Godfrey]

I've looked and looked at this example. Yes I see noise, but I'm not sure I see a "diagonal" pattern. I can convince myself that it is if I look at it hard and squinty like, but then I can convince myself the sky is red if I squint at it long enough.

In the example, all the areas of "diagonal noise" are underexposed, which exacerbates noise. And the unsharpness in the image emphasizes noise too.

Like I say, there may be an issue but I can't convince myself of it yet. I don't see it in any of my pictures, so perhaps getting a refurbished A2 camera was a good idea.

Godfrey

Are you shure you want this? Once you've seen it, you're lost
But OK, this is the SanDisk one again:



In fact it's in all area's below 'middle grey'. The arrow on the
right points to visible 'spikes' in the unsharp monitor casing,
illustrating that digital noise also spoils nice, wanted
unsharpness.

BTW, this was not meant as discussion about diagonal noise. It's a
simple fact many A2's have it. On this forum it was already
demonstrated there are A2's out there without it. (Alas the
pictures showing this have gone already at
http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1024&message=7906438 )
I was only trying to find out the influence of the CF card used. It
does, but the diagonal noise stays there.

Best, Boyd

 

[André BARELIER]

Hi Boyd, I'm with you. Did you notice that as soon as you talk about A2's diagonal noise, almost nobody sees it ?
I've posted a message with an example of my A2's noise. Nobody reacted.

OK, the A2 is great. BUT some cameras are affected by this issue. That's a fact. Not an elucubration.

Personnaly, I don't find the noise on the picture in my previous post is "normal".

It's easy, when you've got a good camera, to laugh at those guys, like you and me, who didn't have this chance.
Can we live with that ? Yes, of course.
Can this problem be solved ? I hope so.

I would like to see here somebody who has sent his A2 for repair, and has got a noise-free one. That would encourage me to send mine to KM, and get what would be the best prosumer camera at this moment.
Anybody ?
Cheers
André

 

[Godfrey]

I'm not "laughing at you". I'm trying to understand what you're seeing because I don't see it.

Godfrey

Hi Boyd, I'm with you. Did you notice that as soon as you talk
about A2's diagonal noise, almost nobody sees it ?
I've posted a message with an example of my A2's noise. Nobody
reacted.
OK, the A2 is great. BUT some cameras are affected by this issue.
That's a fact. Not an elucubration.
Personnaly, I don't find the noise on the picture in my previous
post is "normal".
It's easy, when you've got a good camera, to laugh at those guys,
like you and me, who didn't have this chance.
Can we live with that ? Yes, of course.
Can this problem be solved ? I hope so.
I would like to see here somebody who has sent his A2 for repair,
and has got a noise-free one. That would encourage me to send mine
to KM, and get what would be the best prosumer camera at this
moment.
Anybody ?
Cheers
André

 

[boyd2]

Hi Boyd, I'm with you. Did you notice that as soon as you talk
about A2's diagonal noise, almost nobody sees it ?

Alas, yes. But on the other side: people who don't see it, can be happy with their camera.... However, I guess that's why KM still seems to get away with this defect. I've chosen the A2 over the A1, because I want to use al 8 megapixels if I need that. :-(

Thanks, Boyd

 

[Csillag Péter]

Hello!

I just gathered all of my courage and post my first!
Excuse my english...

Is it clearly seeable on this picture?

It's ISO 400 and not so underexposed. Bad isnt it?

 

[André BARELIER]

Hi Godfrey,

Are you saying that you don't see diagonal noise in the picture I've posted before ???
http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1024&message=10941210

If that's true (and I don't see why it could be untrue), then that means that this phenomenon appears only on some monitors ?

Anyway, for me, it is an issue...Even if you don't see diagonal noise, I guess you can see excessive noise.
At ISO 64, this noise is not normal.
Cheers
André

Godfrey

Hi Boyd, I'm with you. Did you notice that as soon as you talk
about A2's diagonal noise, almost nobody sees it ?
I've posted a message with an example of my A2's noise. Nobody
reacted.
OK, the A2 is great. BUT some cameras are affected by this issue.
That's a fact. Not an elucubration.
Personnaly, I don't find the noise on the picture in my previous
post is "normal".
It's easy, when you've got a good camera, to laugh at those guys,
like you and me, who didn't have this chance.
Can we live with that ? Yes, of course.
Can this problem be solved ? I hope so.
I would like to see here somebody who has sent his A2 for repair,
and has got a noise-free one. That would encourage me to send mine
to KM, and get what would be the best prosumer camera at this
moment.
Anybody ?
Cheers
André

 

[boyd2]

I just gathered all of my courage and post my first!
Excuse my english...

Is it clearly seeable on this picture?

Yes.

It's ISO 400 and not so underexposed. Bad isnt it?

It get's worse with high ISO and long exposure, 'undrexpose' is not really the issue, it is always is worse in the darkest areas.
But in your picture you can even see it in the shadow of the silver knobs.

Try if you still see it in a ISO 200 picture with exposures less than 1/10 sec. at 100% at your monitor. That's cleary the case with mine A2.

Bye, Boyd

 

[Sparky2]

Hi Boyd, I'm with you. Did you notice that as soon as you talk
about A2's diagonal noise, almost nobody sees it ?

Alas, yes. But on the other side: people who don't see it, can be
happy with their camera.... However, I guess that's why KM still
seems to get away with this defect. I've chosen the A2 over the A1,
because I want to use al 8 megapixels if I need that. :-(

Thanks, Boyd

I can see it fairly clearly at home and at work - it is definatly there.