Nikon Announcement September 16th

David SL · Aug 23, 2004

joao salvador said:
I'm not an expert but if Kodak did it then Nikon certainly can. If
Nikon has the courage to offer this upgrade route then IMHO it will
recieve applause from all the photographic community. Just look at
how many excelent and expensive bodies are simply discarded because
of upgrades that consist only in a few chips! Only a few years ago
nobody would have considered to trash an F4 or F5 just because of a
new shutter or metering module! Those days, camera took years or
decades to become obsolete- now we have come down to two years
until the sensor becomes obsolete, while the mechanics are still
pretty much up to date in most cases.

This is a unique situation for photographic bodies in the digital space considering how quickly the sensor technologies are being updated. It would behoove the manufacturers to find a way to allow the costs of body development to "stand still" in comparison to the development costs of the likely far more expensive to produce image sensors. Allowing body to have upgradable sensors would be a good way to get this, it would especially be useful to the pro market IMO. However, it also seems to me that a prerequisite to swappable sensors is maintaining sensor consistency across the SLR lines using the same process size as Nikon and Canon have started to go in this direction. (300D/10D/20D and D70/ D100 use nearly identical process chips, respectively) Apparently, the niche nature of the LBCAST 4mp sensor may not be replicated into a body with a different feature set if it's costs can't be returned from sale of the final body. (This explains IMO why we haven't seen a D2h "lite"..say a D100 body with a 2h sensor)

Recall though the persistent rumor that Nikon may be releasing a new Nikon film/digital hybrid with a removable digital back. This would allow them to swap sensors and keep the body costs relatively fixed over time..but there hasn't been much to this but the rumor, so I'm not holding my breath on seeing anything substantiative on it.

I would be dissapointed if the D2x doesn't have an LBCAST sensor in it, it would mean Nikon's optimism on the technology espoused up to the release of the D2h has deflated somewhat. Considering the scalability that is obviously seen in Canon's CMOS process it's disconcerting if Nikon's technology (also a MOS technology) lacks the same potential to scale. I am holding out hope that this part of the rumor is wrong as I was hoping Nikon would have recognized how important using their own sensors in the bodies could be assuming the production costs were reduced in comparison to buying chips from a third party at whatever production schedule they have set up.

Hoping to be happily suprised come September.

Regards,

joao salvador said:
The D2body is the most modern Pro SLR body and most certainly the
inner electronics upgrade route was considered (and maybe made
possible) since its conception.

Regards
João Salvador

KosmoD70 said:

While I would certainly welcome a new sensor of 8mpx for the D2h,
surely this has to be pure speculation. I would love to hear from
the experts on this on though, because having it hanging out there
is setting up a lot of people for a huge disappointment if it
doesn't happen.

I can see the logic in a hardware upgrade IF the D2x comes out at
13mpx, 3 times that of the D2h, but can it be done, has it been
done in the past, and it is logical from their (Nikon) point of
view to do it?

I await replies from those experts who frequent this board ;-)

--
John Manzione
Publisher
MacNETv2
Digital Camera Arts
http://www.macnet2.com
http://digitalcameraarts.com

Click to expand...

--

uk102 · Aug 23, 2004

Hi,

Did not the 1Ds come before the 1DmkII? yep. Canon therefore had no track record either!

Therefore Nikon would be looking at to reply to the 1Ds before the LBCAST was even released and therefore most likely 11m+ pixel sensor before 8m pixels, Yep!

I wounder if Nikon will go FF or just a larger sensor maybe x1.25?
Alex

thys1 said:
DMillier said:

Nikon have no track record at all for leading on low noise sensors
and now people are expecting a one bound leap from 5 and a bit MP
to 13MP!

Click to expand...

If I understand correctly they will be buying another sensor, not
use their own. I agree it sounds unlikely with their own LBCAST at
this stage, unless the D2h was a pure experimental release of the
technology to, at least, retain some presence in the pro ranks. In
that case the rumoured hardware upgrade might even be real(?)
I hope Nikon will come to the party, though, because I sincerely
believe (though it hurts to say) Canon users need a strong Nikon
as much as Nikon users need a strong Canon.

--
------------------------------------------
Portfolio of Africa:
http://www.zulpa.co.za/Thys

Thom Hogan · Aug 23, 2004

DMillier said:
There are rumour flying around all over the place of course but
13MP in a DX format seems unlikely to me in the extreme.

Sorry, but the D1x has always had 4000 real pixels in the horizontal axis, and that camera is now over 3 years old. The S3 has 12mp of photosites (half large, half small). I'd say there is plenty of evidence in the market already that says that DX format can survive out to at least 16mp.

--
Thom Hogan
author, Nikon Field Guide & Nikon Flash Guide
author, Complete Guides to the Nikon D70, D100, D1 series, and Fujifilm S2 Pro
http://www.bythom.com

slimandy · Aug 23, 2004

I'd be happy with my D100 if it had a bigger buffer and faster flash sinc (and maybe 8m pixels).

Bear said:
I have received infomation from a realiable source that Nikon will
make a Worldwide announcement on September 16th.....What I know now
is the following:
A release of a 13 Megapexel camera d2x and a upgrade for D2H owners
that will include a factory firmware and software upgrade that will
make your d2h 8 megapixels.....My source has indicated that this
will be a major announcement that will include other nikon items to
be released that he would not share with me at this time....Film at
11:00 !!!!!!!!!!

DavidMillier · Aug 23, 2004

The 1Ds uses a full frame sensor so the 11MP fit on a lot easier!

uk102 said:
Therefore Nikon would be looking at to reply to the 1Ds before the
LBCAST was even released and therefore most likely 11m+ pixel
sensor before 8m pixels, Yep!

I wounder if Nikon will go FF or just a larger sensor maybe x1.25?
Alex

thys1 said:

DMillier said:

Nikon have no track record at all for leading on low noise sensors
and now people are expecting a one bound leap from 5 and a bit MP
to 13MP!

Click to expand...

If I understand correctly they will be buying another sensor, not
use their own. I agree it sounds unlikely with their own LBCAST at
this stage, unless the D2h was a pure experimental release of the
technology to, at least, retain some presence in the pro ranks. In
that case the rumoured hardware upgrade might even be real(?)
I hope Nikon will come to the party, though, because I sincerely
believe (though it hurts to say) Canon users need a strong Nikon
as much as Nikon users need a strong Canon.

--
------------------------------------------
Portfolio of Africa:
http://www.zulpa.co.za/Thys

Click to expand...

DavidMillier · Aug 23, 2004

They did so by launching a full frame chip.

Anthony Medici said:
DMillier said:

Nikon have no track record at all for leading on low noise sensors
and now people are expecting a one bound leap from 5 and a bit MP
to 13MP!

Click to expand...

Didn't Canon jump from 4 mp to 11 mp in their Pro series cameras? I
don't see the difference between this and the speculation on what
Nikon is likely to do.

--
Tony

http://homepage.mac.com/a5m http://www.pbase.com/a5m

DavidMillier · Aug 23, 2004

Thom

I have no doubt that you can get more pixels on to a DX frame. What I do doubt is that Nikon can make a 13MP DX sensor today that will compare well on noise to Canon's full frame.

Going to a quality 8MP sensor would be a big enough challenge and we haven't seen much evidence so far that Nikon are pushing the envelope at a rapid pace. Slow and cautious seems to be their mantra.

Just intended as a bit of an antidote - some of the talk around here is just like the hyped up expectations for the S3 announcement awhile back....

Thom Hogan said:
DMillier said:

There are rumour flying around all over the place of course but
13MP in a DX format seems unlikely to me in the extreme.

Click to expand...

Sorry, but the D1x has always had 4000 real pixels in the
horizontal axis, and that camera is now over 3 years old. The S3
has 12mp of photosites (half large, half small). I'd say there is
plenty of evidence in the market already that says that DX format
can survive out to at least 16mp.

--
Thom Hogan
author, Nikon Field Guide & Nikon Flash Guide
author, Complete Guides to the Nikon D70, D100, D1 series, and
Fujifilm S2 Pro
http://www.bythom.com

hmac · Aug 23, 2004

DMillier said:
Thom

I have no doubt that you can get more pixels on to a DX frame. What
I do doubt is that Nikon can make a 13MP DX sensor today that will
compare well on noise to Canon's full frame.

Going to a quality 8MP sensor would be a big enough challenge and
we haven't seen much evidence so far that Nikon are pushing the
envelope at a rapid pace. Slow and cautious seems to be their
mantra.

You're going to feel either really smart, or really dumb after the D2X is announced.

--
H McCollister

Aska P. · Aug 23, 2004

Bernie Ess said:
Bear said:

a upgrade for D2H owners
that will include a factory firmware and software upgrade that will
make your d2h 8 megapixels.....

Click to expand...

This software/firmware upgrade you talk about is called a "image
resizing tool" - like in Photoshop, to make the D2h people feel
more like Mark 2 people.
However, if its not going to make my Honda Civic a Mercedes Benz I
will switch to Canon.

Bernie

DavidMillier · Aug 23, 2004

Not really, I don't charge for predictions, it's just an opinion!

hmac said:
DMillier said:

Thom

I have no doubt that you can get more pixels on to a DX frame. What
I do doubt is that Nikon can make a 13MP DX sensor today that will
compare well on noise to Canon's full frame.

Going to a quality 8MP sensor would be a big enough challenge and
we haven't seen much evidence so far that Nikon are pushing the
envelope at a rapid pace. Slow and cautious seems to be their
mantra.

Click to expand...

You're going to feel either really smart, or really dumb after the
D2X is announced.

--
H McCollister

Carl Feather · Aug 23, 2004

M-L said:
I certainly hope this leak about D2X is true. However the D2H
firmwire upgrade to 8Mp is really nothing to write home about. No
firmwire upgrade can change the pixel counts in the sensor. Anyone
can turn their D2H images to 8mp or more in Photoshop even now.

And imagine what that would do to the already problematic noise!

uk102 · Aug 23, 2004

Hi,

Improve the NR software! It's likely it's going to simply up sample the images to 8m pixel, just like a Fuji S2 does!

Alex

Carl Feather said:
And imagine what that would do to the already problematic noise!

James McBee · Aug 23, 2004

I agree it would be nice if Nikon made all their own sensors, but as many people have pointed out in the last few days, there are advantages to working with a third party. It is also important to remember that Nikon often has a hand in the development of the sensors they use, even if it is Sony, or whoever who is producing them. And then there is the fact that it is not just the sensor, it is also what you do with it. I think working with other companies is a good way for Nikon to stay competative. Using a Sony or a Fuji sensor, does not preclude the further development of labcast.

James McBee · Aug 23, 2004

DMillier said:
They did so by launching a full frame chip.

It was still a technological break through in many ways. Why not give Nikon a little credit. All this talk about the impossibility of getting 10+ mp in a dx sensor is oftly pessimistic. We really can't say what is in store. But just about anything is possible, so for the sake of everyone (both Nikon and Canon users) I think we should wait and see.

David SL · Aug 23, 2004

James McBee wrote:
I think working with other companies

James McBee said:
is a good way for Nikon to stay competative. Using a Sony or a Fuji
sensor, does not preclude the further development of labcast.

..my point was that the fact it's not an LBCAST (assuming that is true) indicates that the technology itself has not matured as Nikon themselves gave great reason to believe it would. [see: http://www.nikon.co.jp/main/eng/portfolio/technology_e/lbcast_e/index.htm ]

That is my major concern, sure I know it will continue to develop, but it needs to outpace (IMO) the scalability inherent in Canon's more advanced CMOS process in order to catch up. Just after the announcement of LBCAST and later the D2h using it, I wrote several posts where I postulated that Nikon's commitment to LBCAST potentical could be infered from it's inclusion in subsequent bodies released this year. Yes, it's generally believed that Nikon tends to take their time to develop an excellent product, but that doesn't excuse them from ensuring the sensor technology is the best available when it is released. (which hasn't been the case for a Nikon body since...well the D1x IMO) It should not come out only to be severely outfeatured by another product in a few months IMO. I am hoping that the outstanding delivery,features and image quality inherent in the D70 and pushed home with unusual IMO marketing prowess on the part of Nikon in that case (I've actually seen commercials on US tv!) will be reproduced for the rumored products. The handling of the D70 indicates a shift in alacrity as far as their produts were concerned hopefully to show it's full scope with the announcement of several aggressive products hopefully to be shown at PMA.

We'll know for sure in a few short weeks...

--

David SL · Aug 23, 2004

David SL said:
Yes, it's generally believed that Nikon
tends to take their time to develop an excellent product, but that
doesn't excuse them from ensuring the sensor technology is the best
available when it is released. (which hasn't been the case for a
Nikon body since...well the D1x IMO) It should not come out only to
be severely outfeatured by another product in a few months IMO. I

well maybe not "severely"

David SL said:
am hoping that the outstanding delivery,features and image quality
inherent in the D70 and pushed home with unusual IMO marketing
prowess on the part of Nikon in that case (I've actually seen
commercials on US tv!) will be reproduced for the rumored products.
The handling of the D70 indicates a shift in alacrity as far as
their produts were concerned hopefully to show it's full scope with
the announcement of several aggressive products hopefully to be
shown at PMA.

We'll know for sure in a few short weeks...

--

David Martin · Aug 23, 2004

I reckon Nikon will pinch several features from the D2H and put them in the D100 replacement, including much better AF - they are currently having more success at the low/mid range, and will want to build on the momentum created by the D70 - I don't think they will worry too much about maintaining a product gap with their pro cameras, but will put in absolutely everything that they possibly can at the price point - since the D100 was one heck of a camera, I think there is a real treat in store in the replacement - I think Nikon knows that they can't hold anything back!
Should mean a great choice for mid-range buyers.

slimandy said:
Bear said:

I have received infomation from a realiable source that Nikon will
make a Worldwide announcement on September 16th.....What I know now
is the following:
A release of a 13 Megapexel camera d2x and a upgrade for D2H owners
that will include a factory firmware and software upgrade that will
make your d2h 8 megapixels.....My source has indicated that this
will be a major announcement that will include other nikon items to
be released that he would not share with me at this time....Film at
11:00 !!!!!!!!!!

Click to expand...

--
Regards,
DaveMart
Please see profile for equipment

DavidMillier · Aug 23, 2004

I never said it wasn't possible, only that I think it is unlikely this time around.

But of course you are right, time will reveal all.

James McBee said:
DMillier said:

They did so by launching a full frame chip.

Click to expand...

It was still a technological break through in many ways. Why not
give Nikon a little credit. All this talk about the impossibility
of getting 10+ mp in a dx sensor is oftly pessimistic. We really
can't say what is in store. But just about anything is possible, so
for the sake of everyone (both Nikon and Canon users) I think we
should wait and see.

Penaloza · Aug 23, 2004

Bear said:
I have received infomation from a realiable source that Nikon will
make a Worldwide announcement on September 16th.....What I know now
is the following:
A release of a 13 Megapexel camera d2x and a upgrade for D2H owners
that will include a factory firmware and software upgrade that will
make your d2h 8 megapixels.....My source has indicated that this
will be a major announcement that will include other nikon items to
be released that he would not share with me at this time....Film at
11:00 !!!!!!!!!!

--
From : Salvador Penaloza

It good to know that Nikon is doing something for us( NIKON Fans ) I was wondering if Canon was taking over the Market . I cant wait to look at the new wonderful camera.

Alex Vaillancourts · Aug 23, 2004

Old technic use by marketing with the D1X!

Nikon Announcement September 16th

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