10D ISO ratings a lie?

The result is a matter of visual perception just like the
defination of a "sunny" day or "normal" people and pets. The
"sunny 16" method was intended as a guide for cameras without a
lightmeter. Basically, if you shot using the "sunny 16" guide, you
would be in the ball park for exposure as well as processing
parameters of the photo printing. The defination of "sunny" varies
in different places and at different times. Visable light from the
sun contains IR and UV components that affect overall exposure.
Your lightmeter will "see" these components and read accordingly.
Coatings on the lenses will tend to block some but not all of the
IR and UV. Put an IR filter on your camera and see a lightmeter
reading when there is next to no visable light. Sure a hand held
meter reading will be different than the TTL reading because of the
lens and coatings. Usually you would calabrate your hand held
meter to the camera and not the other way around.
No, the ISO ratings are not a lie. Just as the "sunny 16" guide is
not the truth or a standard but just a guide.
I have to push my sunny f16 exposures by 1.4 stops in RAW converters for them to come out right. 1.4 stops!!! That is not a small amount. I don't have one weird lens; this happens with all my lenses with almost no variation between them.

Other people with the same camera get near-perfect exposure with the Sunny f16. I think it's safe to say that my camera is probably operating at a lower sensitivity than some other 10Ds.
--
John
 
John Sheehy wrote:
I think it's safe to say that my camera is probably
operating at a lower sensitivity than some other 10Ds.
--
John
I agree that you need to have it looked at if you so choose or adjust ISO accordingly to compensate. It most likely is an issue with your sensor or the way it was dialed in at the factory.

G.
 
13% reflectance is about 101 out of 255, in a 2.2 gamma. My 10D
auto-exposes a grey surface at about 128.
You can get that fixed. That's out of calibration per the service
CD. It takes about 5 minutes to adjust with the service CD, and it
is adjustable in 1/8th stops.
Jason,

What is it that you're thinking is to be fixed?

John reported the theoretical sRGB encoding of 13% of full scale intensity, which is about 101 (I believe he's probably about right, though I haven't calculated it to verify exactly). This part has nothing to do with AE calibration or anything that a service CD could adjust.

John's report of his 10D coming up with 128 for AE on a gray surface has nothing to do with 13%, but sounds more like a typical AE result if the meter assumes a scene has about 18% reflectance or so. Sounds like a pretty reasonable result to me.

This part is indeed likely to be adjustable from an AE calibration parameter. Does your CD indicate that some value other than 128 would be "correct"? From what I saw, it allowed setting for arbitrary user preferences, but didn't say what would be "out of calibration".

j
 
Ugh... The whole thing is such a joke at this point.
Not really. The camera is still recording things much darker than
they should be in a normal exposure, based on absolute exposure.
All of your insinuations abot my agenda, or false assumptions about
what the image is supposed to demonstrate do not change that fact.
I have made no insinuations about your agenda. However, any belief that the image tells us something meaningful is based upon false assumptions.
1. Belief that Sunny 16 is "rule" and not just a "rule of thumb".
Rule or Rule of Thumb, it's "sunny f16", and not "sunny f10".
Sunny f16 does not even come close to working well on my 10D. I'm
only applying it when the sky is blue and there is direct sunlight,
in the middle part of the day. I'm assuming it is meant to be
close under those conditions. It's summer here in New York, so the
sun is pretty high at mid-day. I don't think the Sunny f16 idea
was necessarily coined in an equatorial desert.
It's just not something you can make a precise claim about. You shouldn't be using this rule of thumb to acuse Canon of being a bunch of liars.
2. Using the Sunny 16 rule of thumb in a scene that is largely in
shadow.
What difference does it make? I wasn't exposing for the shadows,
and I wasn't trying to make a balanced exposure. I wanted to see
absolute exposure, and there is a wide range of brightnesses in
that image. There are plenty of surfaces struck by direct sunlight
in that image, including a bright white car. How bright is that
car in the sun? Not very, and any auto-exposure system that
didn't spot-meter on that car would have probably blown it out.
It's the kind of object, which, if it is in the sun and you want
any detail in it, you're going to have to stop down further.
The issue is that the car is actually exposed pretty reasonably, but it's easy to ignore this when the scene is composed almost entirely of stuff in shadow.
3. Using the Sunny 16 rule of thumb where a good portion of the
frame is actually indoors.
Is anyone here really that obtuse that they have to be told that
the indoors part is not the area in question? The areas in
question are things like the cars outside, which are all in direct
sunlight, and much darker than they should be.
And the exposure on the car isn't that bad.
4. Thinking a picture (ostensibly exposed for objects in bright
sunlight) is underexposed because it happens to contain mostly
objects in shadow or darkly colored objects.
Is anyone here really that obtuse that I have to explain that this
is not about the overall brightness (or key) of the image per se,
but about how dark the objects which ARE in the sun are, at an
absolute level?
Again, the one object in bright light isn't exposed that badly. Moreover, you seem to be ignoring the concept of ambient light. Even if there is a beam of direct light hitting something, there is less ambient light if everything else is in shadow.
5. Putting a large white frame around such a dark picture, making
it harder for the eyes to adjust to see the darker detail and
enhancing the impression of underexposure.
It is to demonstrate how much darker the white border is than the
bright white car. The original image, full screen on the monitor,
seemed to brighten after looking at it for a little while, for the
exact same (or opposite) reason that you stated above; my eyes
adjusted to the overall dark image. which should have blown out
with sunny f16, because . My original plan was to use alternating
black and white lines, but I opted for the easier way. Let's try
this:

Makes things look less underexposed.
6. Not realizing that there's actually not much latitude to expose
this shot much further without blowing out the white car. (There
is a little latitude.)
Almost a stop. And this is the type of scene where one would
normally want to stop down further for the white car, but I didn't
even come close to needing to. Any auto-exposure would have
clipped the car in JPEG mode, except the center-weighted, centered
on the car.
It's at most 1/2 stop.
7. Judging correct exposure in a scene with huge differences
between the lightest and darkest things, creating situation where
something is almost guaranteed to under or over exposed.
You don't get it - this photgraph was not presented to demonstrate
that some arbitrary things were under- or over-exposed. It is
about absolute exposure of specific objects of known brightness,
illuminated directly by the sun.
Look - there's nothing that you're going to think of that I won't, "get." The scene and the lighting are very complex and you're trying to apply a simple minded rule of thumb to it.
Want to add some more?
Add all the irrelevant criticisms and false snap judgements about
my motivation that you want. Gang up on me like a pack of wolves,
slapping each other in the back, laughing at what you thought I
wrote or intended, without first consulting me for clarification.
Just don't curse, or you'll lose your account.
I haven't hypothesized anything about your motivation.

You've provided at best some shaky evidence that your camera might be a little less sensitive than advertised. This could actually be true and if so, you would have reason to be disappointed.

I just think you need to do a LOT better job of making your case.

--
Ron Parr
FAQ: http://www.cs.duke.edu/~parr/photography/faq.html
Gallery: http://www.pbase.com/parr/
 
In ACR and C1, with their compression of highlights (to emulate
film), I can push the RAW original 1.3 stops with nothing but the
specular highlights blowing out, and the rest of the scene looks
just right.
We just did the math, so there's nothing to argue about here. If things look good with a 1.3 stop push in ACR, then there's either some DR compression going or you're blowing something out.
In fact, I went through a whole bunch of shots I took with the
camera's AE metering that came out exposed well in sunny f16
conditions, and they all worked out to about sunny f10 exposure.

In any event, a clean white car in direct sun is not something that
you can expect to be captured right if the exposure of the
mid-tones is in the right zone. This is a special case, which
usually calls for under-exposure. I did not need to underexpose
below the "sunny f16" rule of thumb at all.
This is far from obvious given the loose nature of the rule of thumb and the amount of cloud cover in the example you provided.

It's certainly possible that there is something funny with your camera, but this is an almost laughably bad way to make the case.

--
Ron Parr
FAQ: http://www.cs.duke.edu/~parr/photography/faq.html
Gallery: http://www.pbase.com/parr/
 
I agree that you need to have it looked at if you so choose or
adjust ISO accordingly to compensate. It most likely is an issue
with your sensor or the way it was dialed in at the factory.

G.
PROSECUTOR: all evidences, i.e. results of an unindependent brand light meter and continuing evaluation of average results, combined with the metering of equal cameras of the same manufacturer and careful scientific research leads to the clue: this camera is defective and has to be calibrated to specs. Hough, me spoken.

ADVOCATE: on one hand the user should count himself happy that (bowing) the creator of this little wonder gave him the opportunity to do without film. On the other hand lots of forum whitnesses tried to make clear that the user is a moron.

JUDGE: Service: fix camera or pay the amount of $ 1Million due to miss in joys of life. Now for the bar....

--
Kind regards,
Peter B.
('Pardon my English. Still practising.')
 
I agree that you need to have it looked at if you so choose or
adjust ISO accordingly to compensate. It most likely is an issue
with your sensor or the way it was dialed in at the factory.

G.
PROSECUTOR: all evidences, i.e. results of an unindependent brand
light meter and continuing evaluation of average results, combined
with the metering of equal cameras of the same manufacturer and
careful scientific research leads to the clue: this camera is
defective and has to be calibrated to specs. Hough, me spoken.
ADVOCATE: on one hand the user should count himself happy that
(bowing) the creator of this little wonder gave him the opportunity
to do without film. On the other hand lots of forum whitnesses
tried to make clear that the user is a moron.
JUDGE: Service: fix camera or pay the amount of $ 1Million due to
miss in joys of life. Now for the bar....

--
Kind regards,
Peter B.
('Pardon my English. Still practising.')
 
13% reflectance is about 101 out of 255, in a 2.2 gamma. My 10D
auto-exposes a grey surface at about 128.
You can get that fixed. That's out of calibration per the service
CD. It takes about 5 minutes to adjust with the service CD, and it
is adjustable in 1/8th stops.
Jason,

What is it that you're thinking is to be fixed?

John reported the theoretical sRGB encoding of 13% of full scale
intensity, which is about 101 (I believe he's probably about right,
though I haven't calculated it to verify exactly). This part has
nothing to do with AE calibration or anything that a service CD
could adjust.

John's report of his 10D coming up with 128 for AE on a gray
surface has nothing to do with 13%, but sounds more like a typical
AE result if the meter assumes a scene has about 18% reflectance or
so. Sounds like a pretty reasonable result to me.

This part is indeed likely to be adjustable from an AE calibration
parameter. Does your CD indicate that some value other than 128
would be "correct"? From what I saw, it allowed setting for
arbitrary user preferences, but didn't say what would be "out of
calibration".

j
--
John
 
I agree that you need to have it looked at if you so choose or
adjust ISO accordingly to compensate. It most likely is an issue
with your sensor or the way it was dialed in at the factory.

G.
PROSECUTOR: all evidences, i.e. results of an unindependent brand
light meter and continuing evaluation of average results, combined
with the metering of equal cameras of the same manufacturer and
careful scientific research leads to the clue: this camera is
defective and has to be calibrated to specs. Hough, me spoken.
ADVOCATE: on one hand the user should count himself happy that
(bowing) the creator of this little wonder gave him the opportunity
to do without film. On the other hand lots of forum whitnesses
tried to make clear that the user is a moron.
How is the user a moron? Most of "my character" as it appears to you has come from other people's paraphrasing of my words and intentions. I started a thread here to see what experience other people are having. People replied to me as if I said things or had agendas that I did not say or have.
JUDGE: Service: fix camera or pay the amount of $ 1Million due to
miss in joys of life. Now for the bar....
--
John
 
PROSECUTOR: all evidences, i.e. results of an unindependent brand
light meter and continuing evaluation of average results, combined
with the metering of equal cameras of the same manufacturer and
careful scientific research leads to the clue: this camera is
defective and has to be calibrated to specs. Hough, me spoken.
ADVOCATE: on one hand the user should count himself happy that
(bowing) the creator of this little wonder gave him the opportunity
to do without film. On the other hand lots of forum whitnesses
tried to make clear that the user is a moron.
How is the user a moron? Most of "my character" as it appears to
you has come from other people's paraphrasing of my words and
intentions. I started a thread here to see what experience other
people are having. People replied to me as if I said things or had
agendas that I did not say or have.
JUDGE: Service: fix camera or pay the amount of $ 1Million due to
miss in joys of life. Now for the bar....
--
John
Sorry for this misunderstanding sentence, John. Please read it again. In this satire I wanted to express that a) the prosecutor is right, b) the advocat (some forum posters) is narrow-minded as often and that c) the judge honors your concerns. Mind keeping us informed what the Canon service will find out?

p.s. have to recognize that it isn't easy to write a satire in a foreign tongue :-)
--
Kind regards,
Peter B.
('Pardon my English. Still practising.')
 
Mind keeping us
informed what the Canon service will find out?
There is no need for service. The camera functions fine, as long as I shoot as if the ISO is about 40% of what it says, when not using the camera's metering. The hypothetical missing sensitivity at the high-ISO end is not much of an issue, as the images benefit little from extra amplifier gain, and arithmetic pushing does most of the job.

--
John
 

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