Please help- Recommendations requested

crwo1

Well-known member
Messages
131
Reaction score
0
Location
US
I have a Pentax 555 which I find the screen too small and am not thrilled with the picture quality. I am going to buy a new camera. The most important things to me are EASE OF USE- FULLY AUTOMATIC LIKE A FILM ELPH TYPE CAMERA, no need to make or adjust settings, 5 mp, compact, a screen larger than 1.5, and, if possible, an SD memory since I already have a 512mb SD card.

Can anyone please suggest the easiest point and shoot camera that would meet these criteria ? Thank you very much for your help.
 
I have a Pentax 555 which I find the screen too small and am not
thrilled with the picture quality. I am going to buy a new camera.
The most important things to me are EASE OF USE- FULLY AUTOMATIC
LIKE A FILM ELPH TYPE CAMERA, no need to make or adjust settings, 5
mp, compact, a screen larger than 1.5, and, if possible, an SD
memory since I already have a 512mb SD card.

Can anyone please suggest the easiest point and shoot camera that
would meet these criteria ? Thank you very much for your help.
Well, you may want to try and figure out what it is that you don't like about the photos... The grass may not be as green on the other side of the fence.

You can use your Pentax 555 in full auto mode. Also, no camera is going to be smart enough to take perfect pictures in all conditions, without some user input. Keep in mind that a small Digital Camera does not have the exposure latitude (Dynamic Range) of color negative film.

Also, you may miss things like the 5x Optical Zoom, as well as the 555's exceptional flash range (MUCH better than you'll find in the vast majority of small digital cameras).

If you want Simple, I'd probably pick out something like a Kodak DX4530, with the optional EasyShare Camera Dock II (which also includes 2 rechargeble NiMH Batteries).

Colors are richly saturated in the model, so you wouldn't need to worry about learning how to post process the images to get reasonably good results.

As a general rule, I'm not that that fond of Kodak Digital Cameras. But, for simplicity, this may be the best way to go.

It's got a mode dial on the top with an Auto setting, and some scene modes, too (Night, Sport, Landscape, and Macro).

ISO is fully auto too, varying it from 130 to 200 in lower light.

So, virtually everything is under automatic control. It's user interface is also very easy to use, complete with large icons for the choices, and helpful feature descriptions

Steve reviewed the camera here. Note how the record menu works (when you press the flash button, instructions on the flash modes come on screen, etc.). Here's the record menu page:

http://www.steves-digicams.com/2003_reviews/dx4530_pg3.html

Here's the main review page:

http://www.steves-digicams.com/2003_reviews/dx4530.html

--
JimC
------
http://www.pbase.com/jcockfield/konica_kd510z
 
Hi Jim

Thanks very much for the reply. Do you have any thoughts on the Kodak 7630 or the Kodak 7440 cameras ?? Please keep in mind I am looking for fully automatic and good pictures (without having to know how to constantly adjust settings).
I have a Pentax 555 which I find the screen too small and am not
thrilled with the picture quality. I am going to buy a new camera.
The most important things to me are EASE OF USE- FULLY AUTOMATIC
LIKE A FILM ELPH TYPE CAMERA, no need to make or adjust settings, 5
mp, compact, a screen larger than 1.5, and, if possible, an SD
memory since I already have a 512mb SD card.

Can anyone please suggest the easiest point and shoot camera that
would meet these criteria ? Thank you very much for your help.
Well, you may want to try and figure out what it is that you don't
like about the photos... The grass may not be as green on the other
side of the fence.

You can use your Pentax 555 in full auto mode. Also, no camera is
going to be smart enough to take perfect pictures in all
conditions, without some user input. Keep in mind that a small
Digital Camera does not have the exposure latitude (Dynamic Range)
of color negative film.

Also, you may miss things like the 5x Optical Zoom, as well as the
555's exceptional flash range (MUCH better than you'll find in the
vast majority of small digital cameras).

If you want Simple, I'd probably pick out something like a Kodak
DX4530, with the optional EasyShare Camera Dock II (which also
includes 2 rechargeble NiMH Batteries).

Colors are richly saturated in the model, so you wouldn't need to
worry about learning how to post process the images to get
reasonably good results.

As a general rule, I'm not that that fond of Kodak Digital Cameras.
But, for simplicity, this may be the best way to go.

It's got a mode dial on the top with an Auto setting, and some
scene modes, too (Night, Sport, Landscape, and Macro).

ISO is fully auto too, varying it from 130 to 200 in lower light.

So, virtually everything is under automatic control. It's user
interface is also very easy to use, complete with large icons for
the choices, and helpful feature descriptions

Steve reviewed the camera here. Note how the record menu works
(when you press the flash button, instructions on the flash modes
come on screen, etc.). Here's the record menu page:

http://www.steves-digicams.com/2003_reviews/dx4530_pg3.html

Here's the main review page:

http://www.steves-digicams.com/2003_reviews/dx4530.html

--
JimC
------
http://www.pbase.com/jcockfield/konica_kd510z
 
Some questions:

Why are you constantly adjusting settings (versus just leaving it in Auto mode, if you don't like to adjust settings), and what settings are you adjusting?

Can you give us some examples of problems you are seeing with photos from your Optio 555? Better yet, can you post some sample photos on a web site somewhere that we can see?

A good place to post them is http://www.pbase.com

They offer a 30 day free trial, that will let you upload up to 10mb with a trial account (enough for some samples).

Look, to be frank, I haven't see a Kodak that I would personally purchase in a very long time. I find the colors too saturated for my tastes. Some Kodak models have a tendency to overcompress JPEG images, too.

However, since you wanted simple, I suggested one (that had large icons under the menu choices, etc.). Many users prefer the "Kodak colors", too.

My concern is that your problems may be something very simple (for example: motion blur from trying to shoot indoors without a flash, etc.). So, it may simply be a matter of understanding more about what is going wrong.

I'd hate to see you buy another camera, and be even more dissapointed with it. So, it would be a good idea to try and get to the cause of why you are not getting good photos with your Optio 555. Then, we could give you more informed recommendations.

--
JimC
------
http://www.pbase.com/jcockfield/konica_kd510z
 
I'm on my 7th Digital Camera, and there are pros and cons to any of them.

We need to figure out exactly what's going wrong with your photos, for you to make an informed decision on what camera model may work better for you.

You'd be surprised at the times I've seen posts from users that didn't like one camera, exchanged it for another, then had the exact same problems, exchanged it for another, etc.

This is usually because they are picking camera models that will behave virtually identical in the conditons they are trying to use it in (CCD sensors with similar Noise Characterics, Lenses with similar Brightness/Aperture Ratings, etc.).

I'd try to describe what is going wrong, in what conditions. Then, if possible, post some unmodified sample photos. That will allow us to see things like Aperture, Shutter Speed, ISO Speed, Focal Length, etc. This information is embedded into the image files.

We can then determine why the pictures aren't coming out the way you want them to. This will allow more informed recommendations.

--
JimC
------
http://www.pbase.com/jcockfield/konica_kd510z
 
I just took the time to read through some of your previous posts over the past 4 months, and have a better understanding of what is going wrong. Although, I still would like to see a sample image or two, to confirm all of my suspicions.

This is going to take a little while to explain, so bear with me, unless you want to go out and waste money on another camera that is going to perform in the same way.

Here's the deal. Let's take one scenario at a time.
  • You indicated that you were taking some photos without flash indoors in well lit rooms.
Forget this with your camera. Someone should have told you that.

The vast majority of new model digital cameras will have problems trying to take a photo indoors without a flash. This is because because shutter speeds will be too slow to prevent motion blur -- even at full wide angle.

Now, you can boost the ISO speed to allow faster shutter speeds. Basically, this "cranks up the gain" from the CCD Sensor. ISO 200 is twice as sensitive to light as ISO 100, allowing shutter speeds twice as fast for faster exposure. ISO 400 is 4 times as fast as ISO 100.

However, increasing ISO speed also increases noise (similiar to film grain).

That's why you were getting grainy photos with Auto ISO set (the camera was increasing the ISO speed)

I saw where suggestions were made to set ISO speed to 64 to reduce the grain. Doing this compounds the motion blur problem.

Even if you set your camera to ISO 400 (which would produce photos that are virtually unusable due to noise), you may still not get shutter speeds fast enough to take photos indoors without a flash.

So, you're fighting it either way (more grain increasing ISO speed, more motion blur decreasing ISO speed). Moral of story: Your camera can't do this (take good quality photos indoors without using the flash). Neither can the Kodak models you're looking at, and neither can most cameras on the market.

You'll need two things:

1. A bright lens. Your cameras lens is rated at f/2.8 at full wide angle, stopping down to f/4.6 at full zoom. This is actually better than many models. BTW, more than twice as much light reaches the sensor at wide angle, compared to full zoom.

So, when you try to "zoom in" on your baby's face, you're making the problem worse. To get the fastest shutter speeds, you must use a larger aperture (smaller f/stop number). This allows more light through to the sensor, allowing the camera to use faster shutter speeds to reduce motion blur. You only get the largest aperture at wide angle (not using zoom).

The aperture scale (in one stop increments) goes F/1.4, F/2.0, F/2.8, F/4.0, F/5.6, F/8.0, F/11, F/16, F/22... With each one stop move to a smaller aperture, you will need shutter speeds twice as long for proper exposure.

Basically, the camera is going to shoot "wide open" anyway (largest aperture) in Auto mode. The problem is that the largest aperture is f/2.8 at full wide angle. With your sensor, this is just not going to cut it without a flash.

Your camera (and the vast majority of digital cameras on the market), will not have bright enough lenses to do this (acceptable quality indoor photos without a flash)

2. A CCD with low noise characteristics. Your camera uses a tiny 1/1.8" Sony CCD. Because of the size of the photosites (trying to cram 5 Megapixels into a tiny sensor), it will have high noise levels as ISO speeds are increased. This is typical for the vast majority of non-DSLR models.

Now, if this is really needed (indoor photos without a flash), I'll be glad to make some recommendations (but it will not be the cameras you are looking at).
  • It appears you are trying to "fill the frame" with the baby's face, by zooming in on it (or using macro mode). Here's the deal. The more zoom you use, the further away you'll need to be. Minimum Focus Distance in a camera's specifications in both Normal and Macro Focus modes are based on being at Wide Angle (least amount of zoom used). So, I'd suggest that you do NOT use zoom. Also, as I mentioned above, this decreases the amount of light reaching the sensor. Also, being at a closer range causes depth of field limitations (amount of the photo in focus, as you get further away from your focus point).
Your best bet is to make sure you are staying at least 2 feet away from the baby, and use the flash with your current camera -- making sure you stay at full wide angle (no zoom used). Then, crop the photo using image editing software later if a tighter view of the face is needed.

This is extremely simple, and I can point you to free software that can do this, if you don't already have an image editor.

If you are looking for a camera that can perform a little better indoors (with or without a flash, with less grain), then I can make some recommendations. However, I think that your current model is pretty darn good (compared to most).

I can understand not wanting the flash in the baby's face. If this is the case, let me know your budget, and I'll do my best to steer you in the right direction.

--
JimC
------
http://www.pbase.com/jcockfield/konica_kd510z
 
Hi Jim

You are one nice guy to have taken so much of your personal time to try to help a complete stranger like you have done. Thank you VERY much.

I guess what it comes donw to is that if I don't want to shoot the flash right in the baby's face, that I need to be in wide angle (no zoom) and be a few feet back from her in order to solve the blurriness and graining in the picture. I do know how to crop the pictures in the editor I have.. However, when I take these indoor pictures, it is not in low light. It is really during daylight hours when there is adaquate light in the room. The pictures come out fine in terms of lighting; however,they are grainy and blurry. Part of the problem may also be that my hand shakes just a bit when I take a picture and I really don't want to start with tripods. So, I press the shutter down half way, I use the viewfinder, and I do my best to be a few feet back. I';m wondering if it would be a good idea to use Macro if I get close to the baby ? I just hate the idea of flashing the light close to a baby's eyes.

You mention that if I wanted to change the camera that you could give me some recommendations. I would be very grateful if you would. I think you feel that I should look for a camera that the F number goes less than 2.8 if I'm understanding your reply properly. One other thing I would like to achieve is a larger LCD screen. I find the 1.5 screen very difficult to see well and that is something that has attracted ot as well to the kodak 7630 (6 mp) camera. Kodak also makes a 7440 camera but I believ that's only 4 mp. One negative to those cameras is they have a lense cap rather than a self hidden lens.

Which cameras would you recommend considering my situation as well as the need to have one fairly small in size that is easily carried on a belt , for example ?

Thank you again for all your help. I'm going to print out your response as it is most helpful.
 
Jim- Another question if I may - Should I also be looking for a camera with a larger sensor ? I see some say 1/2.5 and some say 1/1.8. Should I assume that the 1/2.5 is larger and better ?

What I am hoping to find (besides totally automatic and ease of use) is one with a lithium battery, SD card (since I already have a 512mb card), decent macro if possible, and a larger than 1.5 LCD screen. I am hoping to hear back from you with your recommendations.
Thanks again
 
What is bright to the human eye, is not to the camera's lens. You probably have an EV (Exposure Value) of around 6 indoors, or at the most around 7. This is how the amount of light is measured (Exposure Value). You must use a flash indoors with your model -- even if the light appears to be good.

The camera must keep the shutter open long enough to properly expose the image. However, when it does this, you're going to get motion blur, because the shutter speeds will be too slow without a flash. That's why exposure is good, yet the shots are blurry.

As a general rule, you will need shutter speeds of 1/focal length or faster to prevent motion blur from camera shake. In other words, if shooting at full wide angle (which is equivalent to approximately 37mm on your camera), then you'll need shutter speeds of 1/37 second or faster. If shooting at full zoom (187mm on your camera), then you'll need shutter speeds of 1/187 second or faster.

However, in the lighting conditions you'll have, even at full wide angle, with the camera's largest aperture of f/2.8, you'll only be able to get shutter speeds of around 1/8 second, and you'll want shutter speeds around 4 times as fast. At ISO 64 (where you'll have the least amount of noise, which is the grain you get), shutter speeds will be even slower.

You can increase ISO speed in the camera to get faster shutter speeds, but this will increase the noise (grain). You'd probably need to use ISO 400 to prevent the motion blur. This would get your shutter speeds up to around 1/32 second (close enough at full wide angle). However, the photos would have too much noise to be useable.

Now, using flash will solve the problem. This is because the flash itself will freeze the subject. If you are using flash and still have the problem, then we need to look at the photos, so I can see what is wrong. Setting the camera to ISO 64 will virtually eliminate the grain (which is noise) if you use the flash, too.
I think you feel that I should look for a camera that the F
number goes less than 2.8 if I'm understanding your reply properly.
You will need to go with a sensor that is less dense (less pixels/square inch), AND have a brighter lens, if you want to take photos indoors without a flash.

You'll need to avoid most cameras on the market. Most of the newer model cameras will be using tiny CCD Sensors. For example, your camera uses a Sony 5 Megapixel 1/1.8" CCD. The pixel pitch is only 2.8 µm. As a result, the photosites for each pixel are so tiny that they don't gather much light. So, they require more amplification of their signal to get the ISO sensitivity needed to produce useable information. This amplfication increases noise (the grain you are seeing).

You'll have a worse problem trying to go with a 6 Megapixel 1/1.8" Sensor (the photosites for each pixel will be even smaller). Ditto for the smaller 4MP 1/2.5" (.40") sensors (like the 4MP Kodak you're looking at), and the 3MP 1/2.7" (.37") Sensors. These use even smaller photosites than your 5MP model.

The best choice for existing light photos would be something like a Canon Digital Rebel, or a Nikon D70. These have DRAMATICALLY larger sensors, and have much higher useable ISO speeds with low noise. You'd also need a bright lens to go with them. You can get a 50mm f/1.8 lens relatively inexpensive.

However, with something like the Canon Digital Rebel (the least expensive DSLR on the market), coupled with a 50mm f/1.8 lens. You'd be investing approximately $1,000.00

BTW, you would not be able to use the LCD display for framing your image with a DSLR. These models require the use of the Optical Viewfinder. The Display is only used for changing settings, and playing back photos. It's also a much larger model than you want.

About the only current non-DSLR model camera that I would suggest trying to use indoors without a flash, would be the Sony DSC-F717. It's got an exceptionally bright f/2.0-f.2.4 lens. This is twice as bright as the lens on most cameras at wide angle, and even brighter when using zoom. It's also using a 2/3" CCD with larger photosites for each pixel, compared to the smaller models you are looking at.

So, you could probably get away with using it at around ISO 200 for still subjects at full wide angle, in a well lit indoor room (provided your hands were very still). But, this is not a "belt worn" camera.

Other than this model, or going to a DSLR, I'd suggest looking for a used Olympus C-3040z. You can usually find 'em on Ebay. This is a relatively compact camera, and uses a 3MP 1/1.8" CCD, with much better noise characteristics than you'll find in current models.

This is because it's 3MP CCD is larger than the 3MP CCD's you find today. Unfortunately, the "megapixel war" is limiting choices in cameras that can function well indoors without a flash. This model also has an exceptionally bright f/1.8-2.6 lens. So, it's more than twice as bright as the lens on your Pentax (or most other cameras on the market). You could set it to ISO 200, and get pretty useable prints at typical sizes.

Now, am I misunderstanding you? Can you use flash, or is taking a photo without flash the objective? If you are using flash, and still getting blur and grain, then I need to see a sample photo to look at what the camera is doing. I can tell the settings, if you can post an unmodified (not edited) image on a site like http://www.pbase.com

Or, you can e-mail me one. My e-mail address is in my profile (just click on my name to get to it).

--
JimC
------
http://www.pbase.com/jcockfield/konica_kd510z
 
Jim- Another question if I may - Should I also be looking for a
camera with a larger sensor ? I see some say 1/2.5 and some say
1/1.8. Should I assume that the 1/2.5 is larger and better ?
The 1/2.5" sensor is smaller than a 1/1.8" Sensor. I explained how this works in my last post (I didn't see this one before I answered).

The problem is the size of the photosites for each pixel. When you try to cram too many of them into a small sensor, you have a problem with noise.

So, you have to look at both the size of the sensor, and the resolution of the sensor. See my previous post for an explanation.

If I am misunderstanding you, let me know. I'm assuming that the goal is to take photos without a flash. If you are using a flash, and the photos are still blurry and grainy, then I'll need to see a sample photo (unmodified by an editor), to determine what is wrong.

--
JimC
------
http://www.pbase.com/jcockfield/konica_kd510z
 
I am making certain assumptions:

1. That you are attempting to take indoor photos without a flash (correct me if I'm wrong).

2. That the blurry photos are from motion blur (which will happen if you try to take photos indoors without a flash).

3. That the grain you see is noise. This is a common problem when a camera is selecting a higher ISO speed using Auto ISO, since it is trying to boost ISO speed to compensate for light being too low.

However, to see what you are talking about for sure, I need to see sample photos of the problem.

What I think is most likely motion blur (based on your descriptions, and my assumption that you're trying to take photos without a flash), could be something as simple as focus mode, or trying to take photos inside of the minimum focus distance (which will increase as more zoom as used).

What I believe is noise (based on your description of grain), could be something simple as the amount of JPEG Compression set too low, or "in camera" sharpening set too high, or resolution set incorrectly. Some people could interpret these as grain. I'm also assuming that it is visible on screen. If you are talking about a print only, then a number of factors could be causing it (resolution too low from croppping, etc.)

Basically, I need to see unmodified samples to tell you for sure what your problem is. So, you can either post them on a web site like http://www.pbase.com , or e-mail me a couple of the files.

--
JimC
------
http://www.pbase.com/jcockfield/konica_kd510z
 
Jim has taken a great deal of time and given you a tremendous amount of good advice. He is to be commended.

There is, however, one more aspect that hasn't been mentioned - the use of a camera with Image Stabilization. While not the answer to every situation, there are times when it can help and some when it can't. If your motion blur is due movement by your subject, certainly common in young ones (or young'uns as we say around here), then only a fast shutter or flash, not IS, will help. But, if a lot of the blur is due to your own hand motion while holding the camera, the IS may help.

Here is a shot I took last year with an Olympus C-2100UZ of a new cousin in the family. I was shooting in Program mode at ISO 100 with a resulting exposure of 1/50 @ f2.8. I was about five or six feet away and zoomed enough to frame it as you see here. No flash. The room was well lighted with sunlight through large windows, plus a small mix of incandescent and fluorescent.

http://www.pbase.com/image/32037124

Now, 1/50 is certainly a hand holdable shutter speed and I was surprised that the camera selected one that fast, but with IS I can still be less disciplined about being completely still while shooting in a fast moving candid environment. The fact that the lens was still at f2.8 helped keep the shutter speed up.

This was at a large family gathering following my new cousin's Christening. Notice there is some motion blur in his hands, which he (yes, it's a he - he's in his Christening gown) was moving somewhat rapidly at the time of this shot. It would have taken a much faster shutter (or flash) to freeze that.

I'm with Jim in that a new camera with similar functions to what you have, will not necessarily fix your problem. But you might consider one with IS and that is faster (not f4.something) at telephoto.

You might look at the new Panasonic FZ3, with 12x zoom, f2.8 throughout the entire zoom range, Image Stabilization, and uses SD cards. This camera was just recently announced and is not shipping, yet. And it is 3 megapixels, which can give you excellent prints up to 8 x 10 in, unless you're completely hung up on a high pixel count. Keep in mind the picture I've linked to, here, was taken with a 2 megapixel camera.

Good luck with you problem.

Rick
 
First- I can't believe how nice you guys are to take this time to try to help someone who has a hard time understanding all of this. If I'm reading all of this correctly, it seems that with a compact digital camera you really need to use a flash indoors or else you will get blurring or noise if you don't set the settings properly. I guess I will just have to make it a habit to use the flash all the time for indoor shots.

I looked on the net at the new Panasonic Lumix DMC-FX7 which is a 5 mp that does use an SD card and it has this image stabilization, but the F number doesn't go to below 2.8 and the sensor size is 1/2.5", so I guess I should forget that camera, although IS does sound like a terrific thing if it really does work???

The camera to find, it seems, is one with the following : (1) F number under 2.8, (2) sensor of 1/1.8" or larger, (3) 5 mp or 6 mp, (4) SD card storage, (5) lithium battery, (6) larger than 1.5" LCD screen, (7) compact in size for easy travel, and (8) must be easy to use in automatic mode practically all of the time- that's critical - ease and simple to use for someone with no knowledge, and (9) if it can have this Image stabilization feature, that would be great as an added bonus.

Considering all of these things, I really don't know where to look. On DP review, they do have a search engine by features, but most of these features are not listed items so you really can't do a search this way. I guess I need to go camera by camera through the manufacturer's sites to try to find something close. I'm going to work on it now and then list the ones I find and ask for your input.

Thank you very very much again for your kind help.
Craig
 
I have just looked through all the compact cameras and can't find one with lesss then F 2.8-4.6 and a sensor of les than 1/1.8". It sems like these smaller cameras all have basically similar sensors and F numbers. I think the conclusion seems to be that most of these small cameras are the same and that you just need to use a flash indoors. Does this make sense ? If so, is there any particular camera that you can think of that comes close to the list of items that I am trying to find in a camera (assuming price is not the issue) ?
 
I have just looked through all the compact cameras and can't find
one with lesss then F 2.8-4.6 and a sensor of les than 1/1.8". It
sems like these smaller cameras all have basically similar sensors
and F numbers.
I you look at my earlier post here, I went into EV, etc.; along with a couple of recommendations for cameras. Also, you can't look at just the sensor size. For example, a 3MP 1/1.8" sensor will have noise characterstics that are much better than 5MP 1/1.8" sensor, but the photosites for each pixel are larger.

http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1018&message=9736253

So, as a general rule, a less dense sensor will have lower noise as ISO speeds are increased (which you will need do indoors without a flash).

Most of the newer Digital Cameras are using very dense sensors. One of the most common complaints is grain caused by noise.

As far as Russ' recommendations for a camera uses a stabilized lens, this type of model allows you to use shutter speeds around 2 stops slower than you can without using a tripod, since the stabilization mechanism is designed to reduce blur from camera shake (up to a point).

So, at full wide angle, if you needed a shutter speed of around 1/32 second at f/2.8 to prevent blur from camera shake; a model with a stabilized lens may allow you to take the same photo at around 1/8 second at f/2.8, since the stabilization system helps to compensate for camera shake.

The problem in your situation, is that I think you'd find noise to be objectional from most of the newer models with this feature, since they tend to use very dense sensors, and the ISO speed will likely need to be boosted with any of them in most indoor lighting without a flash.

This is why you're seeing so many new "super zoom" models. Because the manufacturers have gone to smaller and densor sensors, this allows them to build models with much longer 35mm equivalent focal lengths in a much smaller package.

This is because the image circle for these models can be smaller (thanks to their smaller sensors). As a result, the lens can be smaller, too. I see lots of complaints from users of some of these models about noise at anything but the lowest ISO speeds.

The model that Russ (Olympus C-2100UZ) has will be much better in this respect. It's an extremely well respected model, with excellent image quality. It has been affectionately nicknamed the "UZI" by it's owners, and is a "hot item" on the used market.

However, it's not as small a camera as you want.

Look, I really need to see a sample photo or two. Just e-mail them to me. If you don't have any handy, simply turn the flash off, point the camera at where you'd normally take photos of the baby (more than one area if possible), then e-mail me a couple of them.

That will tell me what exposure (shutter and aperture) your camera is trying to use, at the focal lengths you are trying to use it at; and also let me know what the ISO speed was. It was also give me an idea of what level of noise/grain is unacceptable to you.

The cameras I mentioned in my earlier post are probably the best suited for indoor use. However, you may be able to get by with a couple of other models. For example, the Canon Powershot G3 has a lens that is much brighter than most (f/2.0 at wide angle, stopping down to f/2.8 at full zoom). It's using a 4MP 1/1.8" CCD, that has much better noise characterics than the newer Canon Powershot G5 that replaced it.

One model with an anti-shake featue and a slightly larger sensor is the Minolta DiMAGE A1. This model uses the same 5MP 2/3" sensor as the Sony DSC-F717 I mentioned. It's lens is not as bright as the Sonys. However, it's anti-shake feature would allow slower hand held shutter speeds, for the same equivalent light and ISO speed. However, you may still not like the noise characteristics from it.

Now, there are some very good tools to reduce the appearance of noise, without destroying too much detail. Some are even free.

But, I need to the exposure your camera is using, in the lighting conditions you have, to better judge what camera (or technique) may work best.

For example, if ISO 400 is needed, than one model may work signiifcantly better than another. An example is the Olympus C-3040z I mentioned. It's 3MP 1/1.8" CCD will tend to have better noise characterstics at higher ISO speeds, compared to the newer models I'm mentioning. It's auto ISO will even boost it to 320 for you in lower light. This sensor, coupeld with it's very bright f/1.8-2.6 lens is ideal for most indoor conditions.

--
JimC
------
http://www.pbase.com/jcockfield/konica_kd510z
 
I got your e-mail, but the sample photos were downsized with the EXIF stripped by the image editor you used. They were also too small to see what is going wrong. I sent you an e-mail concerning this.

I will need unmodified photos, straight from the camera, to understand what is going wrong.

--
JimC
------
http://www.pbase.com/jcockfield/konica_kd510z
 
Oh for a truly pocketable 4-5 mp 5x (or better) zoom camera with no perceptible noise at any ISO setting. Not gonna happen anytime soon, if ever. Looking at the evolving form factor of digital cameras over the past several years, it seems that the first thing to go (or in many lines to have never appeared) was the fast (f 1.8) lens. It's too bad that in the rush to smaller cameras with higher resolutions, the sacrifice of ultimate picture quality, owing to increased noise via the size vs. megapizel tradeoff, has now become a fact of life. I agree totally with Jim C's conclusions about sensor size vs. resolution, etc. I don't know anything about the camera that's making you unhappy, but I've followed Jim C's comments over the years, and he may be able to help you with the camera you already have in hand. A bird in the hand....

If not, then I'd like to strongly second Jim C's recommendation of the Olympus C3040. My only reservation would be from not having actually had my hands on one. But but my first camera was its 2 mp predecessor the C2040 (my 2nd is the Olympus C2100 Uzi; I use them interchangeably depending on what I'm shooting. Clearly I'm not chasing megapixels; when I am, I take my 35 mm SLR LOL). Anyway, the 2040 takes fabulous pictures - beautiful colors, with resolution sufficient for my needs, and the 3040 should do at least as well. The 2040/3040 won't fit in the usual pocket, but isn't that obnoxious to carry around - certainly more portable than the Sony F717. (I don't follow the Canon line, but I think there may be model/s that have an f 2.0 lens, but again, they would be larger than the 3040). This family of cameras (the Olympus Cx040s) has (I think) the fastest lenses (f 1.8) available. The faster the lens, the greater the chance you'll get a good shot without needing the flash. Good luck!

Jim Cockfield wrote:
...
Other than this model, or going to a DSLR, I'd suggest looking for
a used Olympus C-3040z. You can usually find 'em on Ebay. This is
a relatively compact camera, and uses a 3MP 1/1.8" CCD, with much
better noise characteristics than you'll find in current models.

This is because it's 3MP CCD is larger than the 3MP CCD's you find
today. Unfortunately, the "megapixel war" is limiting choices in
cameras that can function well indoors without a flash. This model
also has an exceptionally bright f/1.8-2.6 lens. So, it's more
than twice as bright as the lens on your Pentax (or most other
cameras on the market). You could set it to ISO 200, and get
pretty useable prints at typical sizes.
 
After some e-mails back and forth, we got the photos from the Pentax Optio 555 looking fine now with flash. I'm not going to say what was wrong, but If he wants to tell you, he can. ;-)

It looks like he's going to keep it now, and just use the flash indoors.

Yes, the Canon G3 and G5 have fast lenses (f/2.0-3.0). The discontinued 4 Megapixel G3 would be a choice for existing light, too (although, I'd personally suggest avoiding the G5, since it has more noise). Of course, I'm sure there are those that would disagree.

As for the older Olympus models with f/1.8-2.6 lenses -- they are probably about as good as it gets for a compact model capable of shooting indoors without a flash, unless you go to a DSLR.

You can find lots of photos from models like the C-3040z on Pbase, where Auto ISO boosted to ISO 320, and the full screen photos were still reasonably clean. Even ISO 400 wasn't too bad.

Also, with most current compact models (with lenses starting out around f/2.8) you'd need ISO 800, just to match the shutter speeds of these older Olympus models at ISO 400 (because their lenses were twice as bright as most models on the market now). Of course, even ISO 400 is virtually unusable from most of the newer models.

It's a darn shame that consumers are being forced into poor existing light performance, or buying a DSLR. Such is the megapixel war.

--
JimC
------
http://www.pbase.com/jcockfield/konica_kd510z
 

Keyboard shortcuts

Back
Top