Nikon, Canon and wedding, oh my!

Some people dont charge a dime to shoot a even, such as a Graduation, and ONLY make money on the reprints.. I can understand why they state to NOT take any pictures, BUT its a catch22.. If no one bought pics he makes no money and in many cases people wont get professional pictures..

MF2 said:

MF2 said:

Canon! You want a REAL camera? You need a Nikon!" or something to
that effect. Of course he was half joking...

Click to expand...

Sounds like a tongue and cheek comment to me. Whether he meant it
or not, its not really a big deal.

MF2 said:

p.s. Any wedding photographers out there care to comment? Was it
inappropriate for me to bring my camera out?

Click to expand...

Not at all. Most of the people attending these events have no
access to the wedding photographers work...and IMO they should have
the freedom to take pictures if they want to record their own
memories of the event. Its simply a natural thing to do thats part
of what weddings are all about.

As an aside, I teach High School Physics part time (and run a
photography business part time). Our school board hires a company
to handle all of the photography for year book, school rings, etc.
What bugs me is the photographer (who shoots everything on a 10D)
instructs people not to take pictures of their kids at the grad
ceremony every year...purely as a ploy to squeeze cash from the
attending parents. The announcement goes like this "Please refrain
from taking pictures during the distribution of the diplomas,
photos will be available to order immediately following the
ceremony". Nothing like blatant statement of greed to dampen the
spirits of every proud parent who is eagerly awaiting to photograph
their children at this cherished family event.

As for weddings, I often encourage the wedding party to pose for
their friends cameras while I snap a few 'candids'. Its a great
way to people to pose well for non-traditional candid-like photos
(I will set up the shot for the light and background I would like
though)

That said, the only thing I will do from time to time is ask people
taking snapshots to give me priority to frame my shots where I need
to...and to try not to enter the frame or otherwise obstruct the
process. This comes naturally for most people, and they are happy
to give me priority as the paid photographer at the event. I have
been frustrated once or twice by people stepping into the aisles
for pictures while the wedding party is walking up or down. Thats
about it.

I wouldn't feel threatened if someone brought along equivalent or
better gear than I, or if the party is filled with pro
photographers that are better than I. The people attending
weddings should be comfortable and happy to record the event the
way they see fit. Thats what counts really....that the people are
happy...and (of course), that I am still getting paid for my
services, despite all the photographic geniuses that may or may not
be attending the event with their gear.

Cheers,

Mike

Click to expand...

Thanks for all the comments folks! It's been a day since the incident and I just needed to vent. In retrospect I probably shouldn't have said what I said and should've just smiled. But I guess the shock of actually hearing a pro photographer saying those things at a wedding caught me off gaurd.

Thanks again!
Way

I was shooting a video, and had my cousin shoot some extra pictures for the bride and for the florist.. I had JUST got my Mark II, the hired photographer, had a lesser camera and lens, and asked me about the person with the stills.. He seems a little upset, but I thought nothing of it..

BUT, my cousin, said the guy kept trying to get in his way... intentally. . I thought nothing of it, till my other assistant their said the same thing.. The guy was getting in my cousins way.. My cousin would move to the other side of the ceremony and he would move right in front of him.. you can see him in a bunch of shots.. My cousin TRIED to get away from him and stay completly out his way, but he kept blocking my cousin from shots..

UGH...

The next wedding I had that day, the photographer was really cool, was friendly about my cousin and I let him shoot with my mark II for a while and he was really cool about it...

and I'd NEVER think of saying such a thing to anyone with a camera, no matter how big it is. More cameras, more pictures, period! Yes, I do think he wasn't that sure about his skills to act like that. Or maybe this idiot was shooting film? Of course, you, having one of the best digitals, must have scared him to death (and it would be no surprise that your pics had a huge chance to be better than his) considering the output of the 1D2.

I've never faced a bigger camera than my D60+10D at those weddings. Most people were coming at me saying "wow, now that's a camera (10D+grip+big lens+420EX)... oh, you've got another one!! this is really nice, you must be making some nice pictures, don't you!"
yes I was. So no problem with other people and their cameras.

Was this old-school dinosaur selling reprints at a shockingly high price and afraid to see you steal sales? I bet. No wonder dinosaurs all died... "ha ha ha".

Guillaume
http://www.at-sight.com

because such a behaviour only deserves destruction. He mustn't get other weddings from the guests that were there... HE MUSTN'T!

Guillaume
http://www.at-sight.com

if they can't see you've got the camera at eye level and they paid you to get THE shots, it's up to them to look at THE photographer!

I had some shots like this at my last wedding. Almost everyone looking in every way, but the pics are funny that way. Probably 4 or 5 other digicams around me at that time... but it's OK.

Guillaume
http://www.at-sight.com

I often kid a guest who pulls a Nikon out to take photos. ("No Nikons allowed here today" or something similar, said with a wink or grin.) I hope none of them take me seriously. Maybe I should just ignore them rather than risk them taking my comments the wrong way.... If it's a pro camera and I find the time during a wedding to visit with them at all I'll usually ask how they like their camera and we'll exchange a few pleasant comments about our cameras for a minute or so. But as for guests causing problems with their picture taking, I usually have more problems with guests and their point-n-shoots coming at me from all angles. Those with the big guns seem to have a little more respect/understanding for the job I'm trying to do.

Masterdeath said:

Some wedding photographers go PSYCHO.. Me, I dont give a F@#%..

Unless they are messing up my pictures in some way I dont care.. I
use radio slaves but some photographers use photo slaves and they
tell everyone NOT to take pictures since it messes up their flash..
etc..

I have seen some photographers scream at guests... for talking
pictures... such fools.. I dont care about re-print or potental
reprint loss.. I make all my money up front.

Click to expand...

I usually ask that guests refrain from taking photos during the formal poses. If I have plenty of time and the bride/groom don't mind, I'll sometimes allow it between poses, but I've had to trash too many photos where subjects were looking all over the place at others who were taking pictures behind me. It's a bad deal; it takes up valuable time, creates confusion and congestion around me and is just not necessary. We have a sandwich board that we sometimes use asking others not to use their cameras while we're shooting formals. And yes, we use photo slaves with our radio slaves. I only have two radio slave receivers and usually use three strobes, so for now one of them will fire with a flash.

And I'm the DJ. I always ask the photog if it is OK for me to snap some shots during the reception and explain that I don't sell them to anyone but give a couple to the bride and groom as a little thankyou for using my services. Most pro's don't seem to mind. Alot make some comments about all my photography equipement (being the DJ and all) but that's it.

Way Wong said:

This morning my wife and I played violin in string quartet for her
cousin's wedding. Naturally I took my 1D2. I barely got my camera
out the bag when the hired photograper sees my white 70-200 and
calls out "Put that competition away!" Naturally he was using a
Nikon. A minute later we were called to be in the picture of the
wedding party and the photographer say to everyone, "He's got a
Canon! You want a REAL camera? You need a Nikon!" or something to
that effect. Of course he was half joking...

So while getting in place for the picture I smiled and said, "I
don't talk about your mother that way!" It was the best thing I
could think of at the time. What I really wanted to say was, "Are
you so insecure about your photography skills that you need to make
statements like that?" I was a bit stunned and it kinda bummed be
out for the rest of the wedding.

Nikon. Canon. Mac. PCs. WTF cares? If you like it and it gets the
job done then that's all that matters. Thanks for listening.

p.s. Any wedding photographers out there care to comment? Was it
inappropriate for me to bring my camera out?

Way

Click to expand...

First: The photographer at our grad ceremony gets paid to be there, as an empoyee of the company that handles the photography, yearbooks, rings, etc.

I suspect that company also gets paid by the school to be there as part of their services to the school. Even if it doesn't, it is still practicing poor marketing and imposing silly restrictions on the parents (some of whom can't afford to spend much money on such services).

This same company has been doing this work for at least 30 years in this school board. The rule 'no shooting during diploma/award distribution' is a new one. The business model worked well enough for 25 years....then someone got the idea that the profit margins would be higher if they made an exclusive stipulation about the photography.

It just isn't a fair policy, and thats the honest truth Masterdeath. Anyone would be miffed if they showed up to thier child's soccer game, piano recital, etc...and be told that they must purchase photos from the pro photographer instead of snapping thier own. The parents do not ask for the photographer to be there...thus, his services should be simply an elective option....not an exclusive one.

That said, even if the photographer didn't get a dime in salary and only charged for prints...he is guaranteed to get a a large # of orders at grad...the same way he does at the dinner-dance (prom), etc (without asking for exclusivity). He has his monitor showing the pics right outside the hall, and the parents line up every time with cash in hand.

Masterdeath said:

Some people dont charge a dime to shoot a even, such as a
Graduation, and ONLY make money on the reprints.. I can understand
why they state to NOT take any pictures, BUT its a catch22.. If no
one bought pics he makes no money and in many cases people wont get
professional pictures..

Click to expand...

... I was shooting groups with my 10D. My GF and I had repeatedly said that the images would be FREE to whomever wanted them, as I was shooting the wedding for my cousin, yet I couldn't even STEM the tide of people running in front of ME to take a photo with their dinky 2mp camera. In fact I have a few frames with someones shoulder just entering my 16mm wide angle view.

At the end, my gf complains to me and says she's going to get police tape next. I point out that she and her sister both say they don't want a photographer that manhandles the guests at the wedding... and the little lightbulb goes on with that precious "Oh" look on her face...

So, in conclusion, I must say: People will shoot because they have the tool in their hand. It doesn't much matter if the incremental cost or the 'best' alternative is even free- it's the "MINE MINE MINE" mentality that you can't win against.

As for the Nikon/Canon war, well, I dish as much as I receive - I've used both systems extensively (PJ) and they have their strengths and weaknesses (well, in Nikon's case I can't think of any strengths, heh WINK ).

I would've immediately asked to upgrade my 1971 Roman Teller. Just for the meantime. You wouldn't want to pass up an opportunity to enjoy such a beautiful piece of equipment, now would you?

Way Wong said:

Frank from AZ said:

while you were warming up a guest pulled out his Stradivarius?

Click to expand...

I've tried a couple of strads and to see another one would've been
great!
I've got a pretty nice instrument myself and all the musicians I
know would never say something to the effect of "My instrument is
better than yours." Just not professional or nice.
But I know what you mean.

Way

Click to expand...

Mac vs PC, Canon vs Nikon, etc, what is the difference?
Actually there are major and minor differences.
In reality, each purchaser has C-notes or coins when making the choice.

In this day as well as in the pass, Optical quality as well as film coverage works out to be desireable.

When Canon went to the 54mm mount size, they did a good thing. Optical quality went up.

Nikon stuck to their 39mm mount which made issue with chip coverage. It is probably why they have no full size chip.

Its understandable how the paid photographer felt.

You were probably pushing it to bring your camera.

On the other hand the paid guys comments were rude.

I went to a wedding recently and purposefully didn't take my Nikon D100.

Instead I took my Canon S400.

Ironically, the bride and groom liked the images I took from the S400 a lot more than the paid woman Canon photographer.

Better composition than she did. And she had tons of gear and an assistant with another Canon.

The bottom line its not about the gear its about the images.

But it has become like the Mac/PC religions.

Now I have both Nikon and Canon cameras. (D100, Mark II).

I don't think taking both cameras to a wedding would be a good idea.

I think taking a non pro camera like the S400 is the best solution.

BC

Juli Valley said:

Well, this should liven up the discourse around here. It will be
interesting to hear what the wedding photographers will have to
say. I can sort of understand the paranoia of the paid
photographer when he sees a pro camera with a 70-200L mounted on
it. I'm sure they will be running into this more and more.

Click to expand...

Nikon needs an update - fast! When the D70 came out it was dubbed the Rebel Killer, now you can get a DR for $770 & Kit Lens - NEW! Whereas the D70 & lens is around $1300. No comparison on a price/performance shoot out.

Take a step up and the 10D usually wins out against the D100; the D70 has some newer features, but still the 10D (300D for that matter) usually wins on picture quality. And once you move to the 1D series, Nikon is really far behind.

Another big issue with Nikon is "to full frame or not to full frame". I've seen references to Nikon saying one thing and then opposite later. As dSLRs progress, the lack of a full frame dSLR will hurt Nikon.

If Kodak could get their 14MP monster to perform better at higher ISOs / low light conditions, then they'd have a Canon-Killer. Sigma is trying and maybe the SD11 or SD12 they'll have a home-run --- but, a 1.7 crop factor...!... The Fuji S3 is borderline vaporware, promising picture quality, but 1.5 crop factor (yikes for $4k body) and the S2 had AF issues.

Not to say the Canon has it shortcomings, but when you look at the all options, it's hard not to give Canon a big thumbs up.

And that's how the photo at issue should have acted!!! Let's fast foward 1 year, Nikon has just come out with their "Canon Killing" 12 mp fullframe 10 fps buffer is the CF card camera. I am shooting an event and one of the guests pulls one out. I would love to see it, handle and check it out.

purduephotog2 wrote:
You wouldn't want to pass up an opportunity to

purduephotog2 said:

enjoy such a beautiful piece of equipment, now would you?

Way Wong said:

Frank from AZ said:

while you were warming up a guest pulled out his Stradivarius?

Click to expand...

I've tried a couple of strads and to see another one would've been
great!
I've got a pretty nice instrument myself and all the musicians I
know would never say something to the effect of "My instrument is
better than yours." Just not professional or nice.
But I know what you mean.

Way

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

--
Frank from Phoenix
Canon 1D Mk2, Minolta G500 and lots of typos
digital evolution: Nikon 990> OlyE20> Pentax *ist D> CanonMK2> ?????

Lately I have been shooting anywhere from 1 to 3 events per week. Most of them are sporting events. There are cameras everywhere, people are always asking me about why I do this or that etc. Sometimes people will even come up to me with a prosumer camera that I have never seen before and ask me if I know how to operate it. I make every attempt to spend some time with them and talk photography, especially inbetween plays, innings etc. I have found that most of the people who have cameras have an interest in getting images of the ones they love. When they see the difference in the images that they are getting and the ones that I have shot they always end up purchasing something from me. If I had been rude and just blown these people off I can guarantee you they would not be satisfied customers. A quick conversation and a smile go along way in any business regardless of what you are selling. JMHO

Way Wong said:

This morning my wife and I played violin in string quartet for her
cousin's wedding. Naturally I took my 1D2. I barely got my camera
out the bag when the hired photograper sees my white 70-200 and
calls out "Put that competition away!" Naturally he was using a
Nikon. A minute later we were called to be in the picture of the
wedding party and the photographer say to everyone, "He's got a
Canon! You want a REAL camera? You need a Nikon!" or something to
that effect. Of course he was half joking...

So while getting in place for the picture I smiled and said, "I
don't talk about your mother that way!" It was the best thing I
could think of at the time. What I really wanted to say was, "Are
you so insecure about your photography skills that you need to make
statements like that?" I was a bit stunned and it kinda bummed be
out for the rest of the wedding.

Nikon. Canon. Mac. PCs. WTF cares? If you like it and it gets the
job done then that's all that matters. Thanks for listening.

p.s. Any wedding photographers out there care to comment? Was it
inappropriate for me to bring my camera out?

Way

Click to expand...

--
Dan Brown
http://www.pbase.com/wheatenman

'If nothing changes, nothing changes'

MakingWaves said:

have yet to see another
photographer (no matter what equipment they're using) get better
composed and interesting shots than I do. I honestly don't think
the equipment is half as important as the skill the photographer
brings..

Click to expand...

Oh yes the equiptment does matter somewhat. Unless you're Henry Cartier Bresson who can compose, focus and expose by instinct, a well designed camera interface can help you compose your shot faster if not better. Fumbling with your gear will lead to your subjects losing interest and you losing the moment.

Hi there, Way. I'm a wedding photographer.

This couldn't have happened to a nicer guy, from what I know of your posts here on the forums of DPReview.

But there are a couple of things on both sides of the coin to keep in mind.

Way Wong said:

I barely got my camera out the bag when the hired photograper sees
my white 70-200 and calls out "Put that competition away!"
Naturally he was using a Nikon.

Click to expand...

Plain and simple, this was dealing with a non-issue like a jerk, assuming that you really had barely taken your camera out yet. There is no call for a professional who is working the job to act in a loud-mouthed and adversarial manner, the way it sounds in your account here.

OTOH, it doesn't matter whether he was using a Nikon or Pentax or Olympus or whatever. So you probably don't need to dwell on that aspect of things either.

Way Wong said:

I was a bit stunned and it kinda bummed be
out for the rest of the wedding.

Click to expand...

That's too bad. Guys like this don't phase me. I'm much more concerned about the people that I do know and with whom I'm there to enjoy myself. Don't let this continue to get to you.

Way Wong said:

p.s. Any wedding photographers out there care to comment? Was it
inappropriate for me to bring my camera out?

Click to expand...

I can only give you my own thoughts, which are shared by many other professional wedding photographers that I know.

We live in an age where people are nearly universally obtaining their own cameras. This is precipitated by the boom of digital cameras. Some enthusiasts even obtain professional-level equipment. When a wedding or other important event comes up, there is no way humanly possible nor on a moral high ground where you can tell people to just put their cameras away. That's not the professional's job. And this is the heart of the matter. What IS the job of the wedding photographer?

The job is to capture the story of the wedding in as faithful a manner as possible. The couple paid for the photographer to capture most likely a set of formals as well as candids of a beautiful day.

While it's not wrong for family and friends to bring cameras to the wedding, there can be complications. Imagine you've gotten married, are set up by the photographer to take your formals, and Uncle Jerry keeps walking in front of the pro photographer and obscures his vision. Or imagine that Uncle Jerry keeps shouting at the group, "Look over here! Look at me! Smile!" And imagine that others in the family all have a dozen cameras aimed at you, with all their little tiny flashes going off while the pro is trying to work hard to earn the dollars that you paid him. Clearly, there has to be some sort of control so that your photographer is able to best do his job.

There are a couple of ways that this can be handled, but it all depends upon how THE COUPLE wants it handled: Some photographers will ask the couple to deal with Uncle Jerry, rather than look like the bad guy psycho photographer. Others will be given full leeway by the couple so that they feel free to talk to Uncle Jerry in as tactful manner as possible. Still other photographers know that they can't fight a crowd, and so just sit down until the guests are done shooting, again leaving the couple to deal with the situation (some couples have actually said, "Stop taking pictures! My photographer needs to get his pictures first!!") Other options are available, but you get the idea.

Having a camera is not a problem, and taking it out is not a problem. It's unthoughtful guests that can be a problem. And some photographers are perhaps a bit overly sensitive to this and forget what their real job is.

I have asked Uncle Jerry to please not block my shot. I sometimes let him stand a few feet away from me, even placing him at "a good spot for you to get photos". That way everyone is happy.

But don't flash during my formals.
Don't touch my camera.
Don't touch my lights.
Don't rearrange my formal groupings.
Don't get my couples to avert their eyes away from my camera.

Not while I'm working. The rest of the day, do what you want. I might even help.

--
Ulysses
http://www.ulyssesphotography.com

Way Wong wrote:
I was a bit stunned and it kinda bummed be

Way Wong said:

out for the rest of the wedding.

Click to expand...

Way Wong said:

p.s. Any wedding photographers out there care to comment? Was it
inappropriate for me to bring my camera out?

Click to expand...

For the last question, unless there is a "no camera" rule announced on the invitation or at the church, there's no reason why you should be singled out for attention.

The wedding photographer was rude and should have been corrected by someone in the wedding party, especially since you were so kind to "work" at the wedding when other relatives were simply enjoying the event.

The shame is that the wedding party was relying on this rude, unprofessional person to get their shots so you couldn't even pepper-spray him in the back room.

Since Nikon doesn't make a digital camera with enough resolution to do quality wedding work, I suspect the wedding photographer was genuinely afraid that the bride and groom would see your images and wonder why they were paying him $2000. My reaction would have been to give him a demonstration of 8FPS at 8MP and leave the wedding party asking for a rebate.