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My friends and otf members...

Go to last post
I can't help but think that I am one of the people this is directed towards. As Wayne and others have said, I rarely make a critical comment because I have no business doing so with my beginners level of knowledge. I only just recently had the courage to politely mention to someone that NeatImage may help on one pic, and believe me I was sweating just from doing that.

I have told people 'awesome' if I felt that it was and I won't apologize for that. I know what looks nice and I'll say why I think something does. I hope that's OK. As beginners, I think we would be chastised by the more experienced members if we went around trying to give people advise.

I also follow up sometimes with something humorous if it comes to mind. Something that may not offer anything constructive other than a chuckle. I don't think I want to apologize for that either. I'm involved with far too many serious matters elsewhere and if I can have a bit of a laugh or give someone else one, I think that's OK.

BTW, this reply was in no way made in anger. Just stating my case. No big whoop. :]
--
Andy C750
http://imageevent.com/ajrphotos
 
I thought Trond had bought A Drebel. LOL.

Karen

http://www.pbase.com/kstuebin



'Let us cross over the river and rest under the shade of the trees.'

Last words of General Thomas 'Stonewall' Jackson, killed in error by his own troops at the battle of Chancellorsvillle during the US Civil War, 1863.
 
Trond,

Thank you for caring so much about the forum. I hope I can learn as you have. I wish I had more knowledge to share with others. So far I feel that I can only take advice because I don't have the knowledge to share. I do hope that people will criticize my pictures when they see a way I can do better. Any criticism that has been aimed at me has been most constructive and helpful. I have a long way to go, but I am learning every day because of all of you.

Maybe you aren't seeing much constructive criticism because you are getting to be so good.

Terri

--
Terri F.
http://www.pbase.com/terrif
 
80808080808080808080808808080808080808080808080
80808808080808080808080808080808080 blah blah blah 70.
Trond N said:
Nuff said...ROFL!!!

--
TrondN 'The Frozen Viking'
C730UZ + Raynox DCR-1540 Pro, DCR-6600 Pro, DCR-250 and Promaster
5750DX
http://www.home.no/trond-nordland



Comments, criticism and suggestions always appreciated.
Click to expand...
--
Stinson
D-70, C-750, D-40, B-300, Nikon 4T macro, PS CS
http://www.StinsonsTerra.NikonD70Gallery.photoshare.co.nz
http://www.StinsonsTerra.StinsonsC750Gallery.PhotoShare.co.nz
http://www.photosig.com/go/users/view?id=64739
ViewExif at http://ak.no-ip.com/EXIF/

 
Ok so I'm not a newbie and not a oldie - somewhere in between, but what I think is great is that I get help from around the world from people I don't really know. More so than from some people in my daily life. So with each post I have a little thanks, and I hope that newbies have the courage to ask questions and speak their mind. I already chastized one person in the D-thingy forum for not being helpful and he actually came back with a good link. So let's all work together to help each other, and have a laugh while you are at it.

--
Stinson
D-70, C-750, D-40, B-300, Nikon 4T macro, PS CS
http://www.StinsonsTerra.NikonD70Gallery.photoshare.co.nz
http://www.StinsonsTerra.StinsonsC750Gallery.PhotoShare.co.nz
http://www.photosig.com/go/users/view?id=64739
ViewExif at http://ak.no-ip.com/EXIF/

 
Trond N said:
My friends and members of the OTF.

For the past 18 months I've been a member of this forum we normally
call otf. It's almost become my second home.
During this time I've learned to enjoy the act of photographing,
and by this re-discovered the beauty in my surroundings.
Prior to January 2003 I had only been a point and shoot
photographer, shooting family and holyday pictures. Today my family
photos are of a quite different quality ;-)

2 years ago, I had a $25.00 35mm camera, no computer or photography skills at all, but I cannot enter this forum and read the threads and not learn something new. I did not even know what EXIF was, until Trond brought it up, and that knowledge has helped Me make a change, I think, for the better, in My work.
Click to expand...
I see some back stabbing every so often, I suppose someone is having a bad day, and try to ignore it. The mean and nasty stuff, as I have learned while getting to be an old man, usually comes from insecurity. One thing I have learned on photo forums is that there is a lot of ego, and it is good to be proud of Your work, but life is too short to pick battles, over small details.

Everyone is going to approach photography a bit different than others, but I hope everyone is after the same thing, better photos. Someone else getting there a different way does not mean the way You do it is wrong.

Benjamin Franklin said that the only way to fight a women is with Your hat, put it on and leave for a while, maybe We should just put in "anyone", in place of women.

http://img78.photobucket.com/albums/v244/tsiya/

--
tsiya
 
Well now you've done it, stirred up a hornet's nest for sure. I thought I'd add my two cents worth, even though it might be worth less than half that much. Generally, I post pictures because I think they might be of some interest to the forum members, not for advice. When I post a less than perfect pic technically I say as much and also state it is posted merely for the interest it might generate. And when I want advice on how I could improve the proccess, I also say so. I think your point is valid and I don't always l;ook for advice nor do I expect people to go crazy over a less than perfect pic (technically). That said, I guess the forum is what an individual member thinks it is and if they are less than satisfied with the content wil say so or look elsewhere. Thanks for listening.
Trond N said:
My friends and members of the OTF.

For the past 18 months I've been a member of this forum we normally
call otf. It's almost become my second home.
During this time I've learned to enjoy the act of photographing,
and by this re-discovered the beauty in my surroundings.
Prior to January 2003 I had only been a point and shoot
photographer, shooting family and holyday pictures. Today my family
photos are of a quite different quality ;-)

The reason I today can come up with far better everyday photos, is
the very same reason I have been lucky enough to win a handful of
potd's and even a potm. It's all thanks to the members of this
forum. You have guided me into being a better photographer by
telling me what to do, and when to do it.
I've been told what to do different when I've been doing things
wrong. For this I am very grateful.
About everything I know about photography today is thanks to you,
the members of this forum. The rest is a result of shooting some
15.000 photos during the last 18 months.

I have seen members of this forum become excellent photographers.
Some have even got pro. Others have won prizes for their work. And
some have never become excellent photographers, but are still
enjoying their hobby.
I remember the satisfaction of getting nice comments from members I
admired for their skills.
And most of all I have enjoyed the kindness and friendliness among
the members.
One member once said "Who said internet friends aren't real
friends?". That is absolutely true, and the statement made a big
impression on me.

But that was then...

Today I see a different forum. I see a forum where members create
new accounts for the purpose of throwing gripes and trolls at other
members. I see challenges being sabotaged. I see good questions
getting almost no feedback, while stupid nonsense threads get lots
of replies. And while new members in the past was welcomed and
taken care of, new members of today are sometimes almost ignored.
Today I see old members leaving otf. Not because they are tired of
photography, but because they are tired of reading nonsence, and
for being accused for all kind of stupid things at this forum.
And who can blame them for leaving...
Today an avrage snapshot gets comments like "awesome", "Very nice"
and so on, without any criticism at all. Who wil learn anything
from this? Ok, I know once in a while some real criticism is
provided. And some members still give thoroughly concidered replys.
But they are only too few.
I miss my old forum. I miss the good tone among the members. And I
miss the constructive feedback that I learned so much from.

What happened to this forum, and is there any way we can get back
the constructiveness and friendliness we used to have?
Once again I'd like to say "OTF is the greatest forum on the web!".

I believe this is my longest post ever, but I feel these things
needed to be said. I hope someone will take the time to read it,
and I hope something good will come from it, but I'm afraid it will
be forgotten in a few days. And that makes me sad...

--
TrondN 'The Frozen Viking'
C730UZ + Raynox DCR-1540 Pro, DCR-6600 Pro, DCR-250 and Promaster
5750DX
http://www.home.no/trond-nordland



Comments, criticism and suggestions always appreciated.
Click to expand...
--
http://www.pbase.com/waynes6
 
The forgive and forget tradition of the old OTF has disappeared.

I believe some OTF members keep an ignore list and I see it mentioned in some posts.I always post under my own name because thats the way I am. I certainly am on an ignore list because I see little comment to my threads and little thanks for my comments. It has taken some of the passion for photography out of me. Occasionally I see a thread I can help on but knowing the outcome I resist.The other forums can be viscious and not unexpected, but I can handle that. It would be nice to feel welcome at OTF , but I don't.
Some of the problems I see are.

Some people post a question and never come back to say thanks and additional questions get ignored in that thread. No give and take.

Occasionally somebody will have a bad day and go on a rant. What do you do, chastize them forever or try to understand.

As new cameras are introduced the same old questions come up, but they deserve a polite and helpful response. Why take away a person's pride in a new camera.

The forum is about photography, including software and printing. Photography is about passion and it should be nurtured.
Just a lurker !
 
I couldn't say it much better. I think some humor is good for the soul and keeps this forum from getting too intense (as seen in the not too very distant past). And as far as commenting that someone's picture is 'awesome' or 'spectacular', I, also, truly feel that way or I wouldn't say it. Being a newbie, maybe I don't know what is good yet, but I'm learning from you and that is good. So bear with us newbies, we'll gain knowledge, friends, and most of all, a sense of community that we belong to something worthwhile. And as far as posting a not very noteworthy photo, I guess I don't know that yet either - whether what I post is good or bad. So, nuf said.

Judy
 
Judyjo said:
I couldn't say it much better. I think some humor is good for the
soul and keeps this forum from getting too intense (as seen in the
not too very distant past). And as far as commenting that
someone's picture is 'awesome' or 'spectacular', I, also, truly
feel that way or I wouldn't say it. Being a newbie, maybe I don't
know what is good yet, but I'm learning from you and that is good.
So bear with us newbies, we'll gain knowledge, friends, and most of
all, a sense of community that we belong to something worthwhile.
And as far as posting a not very noteworthy photo, I guess I don't
know that yet either - whether what I post is good or bad. So, nuf
said.

Judy
Click to expand...
Regards,
Wayne
http://www.pbase.com/wayne_n
(Comments and critiques always welcome!)
 
Trond,

Without even reading the responses that you have elicited, I can say simply:

WOW! That was EXACTLY what I have been experiencing lately! EXACTLY!

(nt) or just "Nice picture", newbies getting ignored, little substance, a seeming competition for number of responses (with every other response being a "thank-you" from the poster - which, don't get me wrong, is OK, if only just a little needy).

OK. With that epiphany, I now stop this and read the thoughts of the others. After I read the whole thread, as Arnold says "I'll be back!"

TC
Leigh
Trond N said:
My friends and members of the OTF.

And who can blame them for leaving...
Today an avrage snapshot gets comments like "awesome", "Very nice"
and so on, without any criticism at all. Who wil learn anything
from this? Ok, I know once in a while some real criticism is
provided. And some members still give thoroughly concidered replys.
But they are only too few.
I miss my old forum. I miss the good tone among the members. And I
miss the constructive feedback that I learned so much from.

What happened to this forum, and is there any way we can get back
the constructiveness and friendliness we used to have?
Once again I'd like to say "OTF is the greatest forum on the web!".

I believe this is my longest post ever, but I feel these things
needed to be said. I hope someone will take the time to read it,
and I hope something good will come from it, but I'm afraid it will
be forgotten in a few days. And that makes me sad...

--
TrondN 'The Frozen Viking'
C730UZ + Raynox DCR-1540 Pro, DCR-6600 Pro, DCR-250 and Promaster
5750DX
http://www.home.no/trond-nordland



Comments, criticism and suggestions always appreciated.
Click to expand...
--
Please visit all my galleries at Webshots.com!
http://community.webshots.com/user/leightower

Nikon Coolpix990, Olympus C-5060

 
G. Gray said:
The forgive and forget tradition of the old OTF has disappeared.
I believe some OTF members keep an ignore list and I see it
mentioned in some posts.I always post under my own name because
thats the way I am. I certainly am on an ignore list because I see
little comment to my threads and little thanks for my comments. It
has taken some of the passion for photography out of me.

The forum is about photography, including software and printing.
Photography is about passion and it should be nurtured.
Just a lurker !
Click to expand...
Cliiques are formed on this, and all other forums, and they seem to add posts so rapidly that all else gets kicked back to page 2 or 3, and since few Folks are able to absorb all that comes in, page 2 and 3 don't get much viewing. Could be a result of the forum membership increasing in numbers as well. I try to view as many photos as possible, but at My average 28kps, even getting here is a problem sometimes. Bellsouth won't replace the string between the tin cans they use for a transmission line out here.

I don't see any solution other than just everyone try to get along. Perhaps splitting things in to subjects, such as nature, landscape, etc, wouild help, but it is not My site.
--
tsiya
 
Note to self:

Never, ever post reply to very well-crafted, well-thought post that has elicited much response without first reading said responses thoroughly!

Every one of the folks above this reply has made a constructive, interesting, thoughtful, or downright riotous (LOL) comment and mine looks like a picture-centered, cloudless, cliche sunset in comparison.
Oh, well. Live and learn.Thanks, Trond, for speaking your heart!

And welcome to all the lurkers, newbies, oldbies, Oly-lovers all!

TC (that's "Take care", if you've ever wondered)
Leigh
LeighTower said:
Without even reading the responses that you have elicited, I can
say simply:

WOW! That was EXACTLY what I have been experiencing lately! EXACTLY!

(nt) or just "Nice picture", newbies getting ignored, little
substance, a seeming competition for number of responses (with
every other response being a "thank-you" from the poster - which,
don't get me wrong, is OK, if only just a little needy).

OK. With that epiphany, I now stop this and read the thoughts of
the others. After I read the whole thread, as Arnold says "I'll be
back!"

TC
Leigh
Trond N said:
My friends and members of the OTF.

And who can blame them for leaving...
Today an avrage snapshot gets comments like "awesome", "Very nice"
and so on, without any criticism at all. Who wil learn anything
from this? Ok, I know once in a while some real criticism is
provided. And some members still give thoroughly concidered replys.
But they are only too few.
I miss my old forum. I miss the good tone among the members. And I
miss the constructive feedback that I learned so much from.

What happened to this forum, and is there any way we can get back
the constructiveness and friendliness we used to have?
Once again I'd like to say "OTF is the greatest forum on the web!".

I believe this is my longest post ever, but I feel these things
needed to be said. I hope someone will take the time to read it,
and I hope something good will come from it, but I'm afraid it will
be forgotten in a few days. And that makes me sad...

--
TrondN 'The Frozen Viking'
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
--
Please visit all my galleries at Webshots.com!
http://community.webshots.com/user/leightower

Nikon Coolpix990, Olympus C-5060

 
tsiya said:
Cliiques are formed on this, and all other forums, and they seem to
add posts so rapidly that all else gets kicked back to page 2 or 3
Click to expand...
This is an important point.

When you have someone held in high stature to the rest of the group and s/he says this is wrong, then everyone else will jump aboard as if they were just waiting for the word "go" from someone.

Yeah, this is wrong. Yep, that's wrong. This is just plain wrong. You're wrong. Yep, wrong. Wrong.

There's a lot more of this kind of behavior than in times past. If you tried that stuff back then, they'd kindly redirect the conversation.
"Yes, many might see it as wrong, but I think the initial direction was right."

Inotherwords, I would suggest that many of the members who are known around here and thought of well are responsible for shaping the way the forum goes. There is no group of moderators here. We have to be self-policing. And sometimes it works well, but little waves can cause ripple-effects and the future is hidden from us. So when someone who has the ability to describe photography well makes a negative statement, it might be the green light has been turned on for a whole lot more negativity and suddenly the whole thread is off kilter in a thread of blame-letting and name-calling.

There are also times when people make mistakes. You might have someone who posts 25 images in their post. A lot of people might get mad and that person might feel cornered and lash out more harshly than usual. But then someone or a few someones might ignore all of that and simply ask questions, and try to get the thread back on track and allow it come closer to positive thing the poster originally intended it to be.

There are more people here as well, so you'll see more rotten ones and it's always easy to that. I think that the most important action is to remind people as you have done that our forum is the best and we should all work together, including the esteemed well-known well-liked admired, to continue to be aware that the difference between this forum and a Canon forum may not be as large as we might think, nor as far away if we are not diligent to steward this place well.
 
Oh, I dunno. It was in agreement.

At first, I contemplated writing a reply telling him he was stupid for writing it at all, going on and on about it, and tell him he should just get some sleep and he'll think better of it tomorrow. But then I thought, no one will get it. Best not to play that game. But I can talk about it here. :)
LeighTower said:
Every one of the folks above this reply has made a constructive,
interesting, thoughtful, or downright riotous (LOL) comment and
mine looks like a picture-centered, cloudless, cliche sunset in
comparison.
Oh, well. Live and learn.Thanks, Trond, for speaking your heart!

And welcome to all the lurkers, newbies, oldbies, Oly-lovers all!

TC (that's "Take care", if you've ever wondered)
Leigh
LeighTower said:
Without even reading the responses that you have elicited, I can
say simply:

WOW! That was EXACTLY what I have been experiencing lately! EXACTLY!

(nt) or just "Nice picture", newbies getting ignored, little
substance, a seeming competition for number of responses (with
every other response being a "thank-you" from the poster - which,
don't get me wrong, is OK, if only just a little needy).

OK. With that epiphany, I now stop this and read the thoughts of
the others. After I read the whole thread, as Arnold says "I'll be
back!"

TC
Leigh
Trond N said:
My friends and members of the OTF.

And who can blame them for leaving...
Today an avrage snapshot gets comments like "awesome", "Very nice"
and so on, without any criticism at all. Who wil learn anything
from this? Ok, I know once in a while some real criticism is
provided. And some members still give thoroughly concidered replys.
But they are only too few.
I miss my old forum. I miss the good tone among the members. And I
miss the constructive feedback that I learned so much from.

What happened to this forum, and is there any way we can get back
the constructiveness and friendliness we used to have?
Once again I'd like to say "OTF is the greatest forum on the web!".

I believe this is my longest post ever, but I feel these things
needed to be said. I hope someone will take the time to read it,
and I hope something good will come from it, but I'm afraid it will
be forgotten in a few days. And that makes me sad...

--
TrondN 'The Frozen Viking'
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
--
Please visit all my galleries at Webshots.com!
http://community.webshots.com/user/leightower

Nikon Coolpix990, Olympus C-5060

Click to expand...
 
It will swing back in time. We've got a bit of a "brain drain" right now with all the C and N thingys being sold (due to the lack of a suitable Olympus branded alternative -- and no, the E-1 is not in the same class at all).

But we've lost good folks in the past and continued on. This place is what we make of it.

Not every day, but from time to time I go fishing for posts that have gotten lost in the shuffle a page or more back with no replies, and try to respond or at least bump the thing up for others to "find". For example:

http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1008&message=9373728

Surely someone else has something to suggest here, and odds are likely at least one person has actually shot a rodeo?

Also, while not all of them, I've also seen a lot of "welcome" messages going out to first time posters. W/respect to "average" shots getting "nice job" comments, I agree that's a bit of an issue, but then sometimes honest criticism gets taken the wrong way. I try to follow what I think Bob/Mofongo called the "Oreo cookie" model.... Say something nice/good about the shot... point out where things might have been better and how to address that, then finish up with another positive. Example:

What a lovely shot of your family. Next time try to make sure your finger is out of the way and you'll be able to see their faces. BTW, your wife has nice legs. ;-)
 
That was a thoughtful response to your response!

This caught my attentions though:
Member said:
(with every other response being a "thank-you" from the poster - which, don't get me wrong, is OK, if only just a little needy).
Click to expand...
I often wonder what the proper etiquette is, but I doubt there really is one. Sometimes I post a thank you to each responder, and sometimes I post a bulk "thank you" (or "get lost" or whatever is appropriate Lol!). Sometimes I wonder if people get peeved at individual thank-you's (don't want anyone thinking I'm being needy or anything Lol!), but then I just figure it's their problem if they are annoyed by it. I certainly don't mind it when someone individually thanks me for my comments. Also, it seems that many of the "otf old timers" post thank-you's to every respondant.

So after all of that babbling, I guess what I'm trying to say is that I think individual thank-you's are fine! However, I'm all ears if anyone wishes to convince me otherwise.

Regards,
Wayne
http://www.pbase.com/wayne_n
(Comments and critiques always welcome!)
 
Personally for me, when I see a note that says, "Nice shot" or "thanks", I am a little bewildered. Is it laziness? They took the time to say thanks or nice shot. So maybe it's politeness? But then again, I was expecting to read something and all it ended up being was a hallmark card without the joke.

I just feel like if you're going to reply, then take the time and do so, otherwise move on. It's exciting to see your post get replies. You were hoping for a reply from LeighTower. What if the reply is, "Yup". What does that mean? What's the point of it? Does it mean "yup" I agree or "yup" I guess you are right or "yup" just to say I saw your post. Why didn't LeighTower instead write something of substance so that when you saw this post you didn't open it & get let down. Awww... nothing really....
Wayne N. said:
This caught my attentions though:
Wayne N. said:
(with every other response being a "thank-you" from the poster - which, don't get me wrong, is OK, if only just a little needy).
Click to expand...
I often wonder what the proper etiquette is, but I doubt there
really is one. Sometimes I post a thank you to each responder, and
sometimes I post a bulk "thank you" (or "get lost" or whatever is
appropriate Lol!). Sometimes I wonder if people get peeved at
individual thank-you's (don't want anyone thinking I'm being needy
or anything Lol!), but then I just figure it's their problem if
they are annoyed by it. I certainly don't mind it when someone
individually thanks me for my comments. Also, it seems that many
of the "otf old timers" post thank-you's to every respondant.

So after all of that babbling, I guess what I'm trying to say is
that I think individual thank-you's are fine! However, I'm all
ears if anyone wishes to convince me otherwise.

Regards,
Wayne
http://www.pbase.com/wayne_n
(Comments and critiques always welcome!)
Click to expand...
 
But now, I'm feeling a little hesitant to post individual thank-yous because I wouldn't want anyone to think I'm being needy. I always try to respond to whatever that person has commented on. And, even if they have posted a 'good shot', 'nice px', etc. with no text, I still think, because they took the time to let me know they liked it or not, it deserves an answer.

Judy
Wayne N. said:
This caught my attentions though:
Wayne N. said:
(with every other response being a "thank-you" from the poster - which, don't get me wrong, is OK, if only just a little needy).
Click to expand...
I often wonder what the proper etiquette is, but I doubt there
really is one. Sometimes I post a thank you to each responder, and
sometimes I post a bulk "thank you" (or "get lost" or whatever is
appropriate Lol!). Sometimes I wonder if people get peeved at
individual thank-you's (don't want anyone thinking I'm being needy
or anything Lol!), but then I just figure it's their problem if
they are annoyed by it. I certainly don't mind it when someone
individually thanks me for my comments. Also, it seems that many
of the "otf old timers" post thank-you's to every respondant.

So after all of that babbling, I guess what I'm trying to say is
that I think individual thank-you's are fine! However, I'm all
ears if anyone wishes to convince me otherwise.

Regards,
Wayne
http://www.pbase.com/wayne_n
(Comments and critiques always welcome!)
Click to expand...
 
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