Better B&W from S2

jl8327222304 · Jun 27, 2004

I see a ton of B&W images on here. Some good, some need some help. When you really think about it...B&W is just that. Black and white.

When I shot film, we calibrated for dmax and dmin. Dmax being the blackest black the paper would produce and dmin the whitest white that would print with any detail at all.

I would propose that something similar can be done in digital but now we simply use white points and black points. Going back a little, when we calibrated for dmax and dmin on film, we would let all the shades of gray fall within that range. We assumed that at a given contrast the film and paper would produce an expectable number of grays.

Digital having less latitude than film, we might conclude that those shades of grays would be less than film. This does not however negate finding dmax and dmin of an image and that's where your black point and white points come into play.

I might suggest a white point of around 244 or so with a black point of 4. You simple set these once your image is converted to shades of gray. If black and white is all about the black and the white as minimum and maximum, setting these two points should give you a good start for a rich and powerful black along with and acceptable white in the photo.

Most everyone agrees that the B&W image mode out of the S2 is better than color mode. Perhaps. Most would agree that the s2 produces a slightly green file upon capture. I suggest making your last step in color balance. Try -3 on the green slide. What I think you will find is a very natural and neutral tint and more like silver halide paper.

One more tip. As a last step before sharpening. Trying run USM at the following settings. Amount 60%, Radius 20, threshold 4. It just adds a little "punch" to the image and that's what B&W is all about.

Good luck and I hope this helps. Here are a couple of mine using these settings.
Joe Lacy

Hap Mullenneaux · Jun 27, 2004

Joe,

Thanks for the advice. I really like the second shot. I'm not an S2 user and I am wondering what you mean by the files being a little green. Do you mean the color file and, if so, why would it matter if you are going to convert to B&W? If you mean that the grayscale file is green, I'm really confused.
Hap

jl8327 said:
I see a ton of B&W images on here. Some good, some need some help.
When you really think about it...B&W is just that. Black and white.

When I shot film, we calibrated for dmax and dmin. Dmax being the
blackest black the paper would produce and dmin the whitest white
that would print with any detail at all.

I would propose that something similar can be done in digital but
now we simply use white points and black points. Going back a
little, when we calibrated for dmax and dmin on film, we would let
all the shades of gray fall within that range. We assumed that at a
given contrast the film and paper would produce an expectable
number of grays.

Digital having less latitude than film, we might conclude that
those shades of grays would be less than film. This does not
however negate finding dmax and dmin of an image and that's where
your black point and white points come into play.

I might suggest a white point of around 244 or so with a black
point of 4. You simple set these once your image is converted to
shades of gray. If black and white is all about the black and the
white as minimum and maximum, setting these two points should give
you a good start for a rich and powerful black along with and
acceptable white in the photo.

Most everyone agrees that the B&W image mode out of the S2 is
better than color mode. Perhaps. Most would agree that the s2
produces a slightly green file upon capture. I suggest making your
last step in color balance. Try -3 on the green slide. What I think
you will find is a very natural and neutral tint and more like
silver halide paper.

One more tip. As a last step before sharpening. Trying run USM at
the following settings. Amount 60%, Radius 20, threshold 4. It just
adds a little "punch" to the image and that's what B&W is all about.

Good luck and I hope this helps. Here are a couple of mine using
these settings.
Joe Lacy

d.a. · Jun 27, 2004

As far as I understand from reading the post, he means that the out-of-camera B&W JPGs from the S2pro comes out a little green, so you'll need to reduce it -3 in photoshop. B&W out of camera JPGs are still in 8-bit color mode, not grayscale. He's not talking about color images that you're converting to B&W in post.

Please correct me if I'm wrong

Best regards

Hap Mullenneaux said:
jl8327 said:

I see a ton of B&W images on here. Some good, some need some help.
When you really think about it...B&W is just that. Black and white.

When I shot film, we calibrated for dmax and dmin. Dmax being the
blackest black the paper would produce and dmin the whitest white
that would print with any detail at all.

I would propose that something similar can be done in digital but
now we simply use white points and black points. Going back a
little, when we calibrated for dmax and dmin on film, we would let
all the shades of gray fall within that range. We assumed that at a
given contrast the film and paper would produce an expectable
number of grays.

Digital having less latitude than film, we might conclude that
those shades of grays would be less than film. This does not
however negate finding dmax and dmin of an image and that's where
your black point and white points come into play.

I might suggest a white point of around 244 or so with a black
point of 4. You simple set these once your image is converted to
shades of gray. If black and white is all about the black and the
white as minimum and maximum, setting these two points should give
you a good start for a rich and powerful black along with and
acceptable white in the photo.

Most everyone agrees that the B&W image mode out of the S2 is
better than color mode. Perhaps. Most would agree that the s2
produces a slightly green file upon capture. I suggest making your
last step in color balance. Try -3 on the green slide. What I think
you will find is a very natural and neutral tint and more like
silver halide paper.

One more tip. As a last step before sharpening. Trying run USM at
the following settings. Amount 60%, Radius 20, threshold 4. It just
adds a little "punch" to the image and that's what B&W is all about.

Good luck and I hope this helps. Here are a couple of mine using
these settings.
Joe Lacy

Click to expand...

--

http://www.pbase.com/hulk18
'What we do in life echoes in eternity'

Carlos De La Rosa · Jun 27, 2004

Beautiful BW work. I have always loved BW photos and have hesitated in doinig any.

Recently, I have started reading up on BW photography and have started working with CS calculations. Here is one I did, not at your professional level, but wanted to share. Also, for some reason, the conversion to jpg lost the smoothness in the greys, so what you see is not what I see in Photoshop or printouts. When I converted the picture in CS it looked fine there, but not in IE. Anyway, here it is...

Carlos in Dallas, TX

I used Photoshop CS - Calculations using Red Channel through out and adding a Grey Mask using blending of Multiply with an Opacity at 20%.

jl8327222304 · Jun 27, 2004

When you look at this image next to the black background on dpr, see how black it is? That's a good black. If you look at this guys shirt it's just off 255. Then you just let all the shades of gray fall where they may or adjust to taste in the middle values.

The power is in the black and the contrast of white. If your B&W image is flat, meaning it's just shades of gray with no true black then the image lacks impact.

Now let's take it a step further. People. The traditional zone system says white causation skin to be placed on zone 6. Other's prefer 6.5. It's a matter of personal taste I think. I prefer richer skin tones and closer to 5.5-6 but having a good black and good white goes a long way. If you compare tones, from Carlos's image and mine you will see that green tint. We used to use selenium toner to kill that green printing on fiber based paper. In CS try -3 in color balance.

Carlos De La Rosa · Jun 27, 2004

I did what you said and sure enough the image looked a lot crisper.

Carlos in Dallas, Tx

jl8327 said:
When you look at this image next to the black background on dpr,
see how black it is? That's a good black. If you look at this guys
shirt it's just off 255. Then you just let all the shades of gray
fall where they may or adjust to taste in the middle values.

The power is in the black and the contrast of white. If your B&W
image is flat, meaning it's just shades of gray with no true black
then the image lacks impact.

Now let's take it a step further. People. The traditional zone
system says white causation skin to be placed on zone 6. Other's
prefer 6.5. It's a matter of personal taste I think. I prefer
richer skin tones and closer to 5.5-6 but having a good black and
good white goes a long way. If you compare tones, from Carlos's
image and mine you will see that green tint. We used to use
selenium toner to kill that green printing on fiber based paper. In
CS try -3 in color balance.

jl8327222304 · Jun 28, 2004

You may or may not know. Traditional paper that is fiber based paper is graded in tones and leans towards 3 types. Warm, neutral or cold. Hard to tell apart unless you placed them side by side but it's there if you do. It has to do with the "white" of the base paper itself and the developer used. Many fine art portrait photographers used warm tone B&W paper. It gives the skin tones a little richer hue while still being a B&W. You can lean it towards this easily by using color balance. Subtle but still nice if you like the look. Try -3, -16,-18 in color balance for warmer. This somewhat simulates a Gold toner than Yosef Karsh and many others used.

Ansel was famous for his purple blacks. If you have ever seen an Adam's print upclose and personal, it's clearly recognizable. You live in Dallas, so if you're interested go to After Image Gallery in uptown. Behind the reception desk is an Ansel Adams print. At least it was there the last time I visited. Compare his blacks with others hanging on the wall in the gallery. You'll see a purple tint to the image but it's still black. That can be done too.

They idea here is to get as many tones within the image itself, meaning a good black and a good white and as many middle grays as the latitude and contrast will allow...then add subtly to bring out the image for the subject matter. For example...Snow scenes...cold, people warm, street scenes neutral. We can do all this in PS and it smells a lot nicer and zero paper curl.

You are on the right track.

Joe

jl8327222304 · Jun 28, 2004

Here they are side by side.

First the color:

Neutral Black

Purple Black

Warm Black

jl8327222304 · Jun 28, 2004

Good black and white photo's have a good black and bright white and a smooth graduation of tones in between. Does this mean that if it does not then it's not good? Of course not. Like in all things photographically, know the rules first, then make them up as you go and tailor them to your own style and preferences. Hopefully this thread has at least given you some things to consider.

Joe Lacy

Hap Mullenneaux · Jun 28, 2004

Joe,

This is quite a thread you have put together. One key to your success with digital B&W is your control of lighting. I doubt that the S2 in B&W mode has significantly more dynamic range than other dslr's, but correct me if I'm wrong. If you shoot a high contrast subject like a bride and groom in bright light, you won't have an option of setting your black and white points in PS. They'll already be clipped. Finding or creating soft, low contrast light is critical.

Now, since you have mastered digital B&W capture, I am hoping you have had equal success with printing. My wife and I have been shooting with Canon D30's and 10D's for 3 years and enjoy the power of PS for converting color to B&W, but getting a good B&W print is an ongoing challenge. We left the Cone system behind when the Epson 2200 came out and it has been very reliable but far from sensational.
Thanks, Hap

michel verlinden · Jun 28, 2004

I like b&w pictures myself, but I thought the s2 made good b&w directly from the camera, so what's the advantage of conversion , except more work

if I understand your explanation well, this included picture is not according the rules

michel

jl8327222304 · Jun 28, 2004

First off I have not mastered anything. I do understand somewhat B&W from a traditional film perspective. It does not always apply to digital but that foundation helps.

Now some thoughts. I have never shot Canon so I can't compare. They tell us here that indeed the S2 does have the longest dynamic range of any d-slr. I can't confirm or deny that.

As far as bright sunlight: Digital having less latitude than film requires you to be more critical in your exposure. Nothing new there right? But, the key for me is where I place my brightest white in the exposure.

Let's go back to film for just a second. Traditional zone system of exposure said Zone 3 for shadow detail and zone 8 for white. Because of the blooming whites issues with digital, I use the brightest white that my camera can record for my based line exposure. What that means is that I meter the white and expose for the white. How do you ask? Ok, try this, shoot raw, meter with a spot meter a white towel in bright sun. Now the meter will want to render that towel 18% gray or zone 5. So..what you want to do is open up 2.5 stops and take the photo, then close down 1/2 stop and take it. Look at the images. Where was the exposure that didn't bloom the white? Where di you see a little texture in the white towel? Once you find that...then you use WHITE as your exposure as you know you can't go past 2.5 or two stops or whatever you calibrate for. I shoot white in bright sunlight whenever I have to. It's about knowing how far to push that white in digital without it blooming. You never know until you test. Use UV filters to help keep your whites from blooming. Trust me it helps in the blue channel.

On the printing: The Plezo system seems to be the defacto standard for B&W printing. Of course that makes one printer dedicated for B&W. I have a 1280 so I can't speak about your 2200. I can speak somewhat on inks.

I went through a series of threads all over the planet on inks. I was looking for a CIS system. I spoke to many people, and some even knew what they were talking about. One of the issues with pigment inks is dmax as you might know. For that reason...I went with dye based. Within the dye based 3rd party inks there is not much selection in CIS system. Confused still I spoke to Drycreek photo direct and this is what they said" After 100's of color profiles we have built we feel the Media street plug and play inks offer the best dmax." I believed them and have those inks in my 1280.

Profiles are as important as inks imho. Media street made my profile for free and I get fine B&W prints with very very black blacks. You might give them a call and see.

Joe

Paul_U · Jun 28, 2004

jl8327 said:
Profiles are as important as inks imho. Media street made my
profile for free and I get fine B&W prints with very very black
blacks. You might give them a call and see.

Joe,

do you use color inks or some set of several black inks like piezography system for b/w?

Did you try any pther inks than Media street? I use Inktec inks with custom profiles for quite a while but not sure if it's really a best bang per buck as well as best possible quality.

There is very little info in the inet about those 3rd party inks...

Hap Mullenneaux · Jun 28, 2004

Joe,

It makes sense to meter on white for digital since that is what usually makes or breaks your exposure. Why didn't I think of that? I'll do some tests with the 10D. The reason I have been monitoring the Fuji SLR forum is to get news on the S3 with its increase DR. Maybe I should be considering an S2.
Do you ever send your B&W images out for printing?
Thanks again, Hap

jl8327 said:
First off I have not mastered anything. I do understand somewhat
B&W from a traditional film perspective. It does not always apply
to digital but that foundation helps.

Now some thoughts. I have never shot Canon so I can't compare. They
tell us here that indeed the S2 does have the longest dynamic range
of any d-slr. I can't confirm or deny that.

As far as bright sunlight: Digital having less latitude than film
requires you to be more critical in your exposure. Nothing new
there right? But, the key for me is where I place my brightest
white in the exposure.

Let's go back to film for just a second. Traditional zone system of
exposure said Zone 3 for shadow detail and zone 8 for white.
Because of the blooming whites issues with digital, I use the
brightest white that my camera can record for my based line
exposure. What that means is that I meter the white and expose for
the white. How do you ask? Ok, try this, shoot raw, meter with a
spot meter a white towel in bright sun. Now the meter will want to
render that towel 18% gray or zone 5. So..what you want to do is
open up 2.5 stops and take the photo, then close down 1/2 stop and
take it. Look at the images. Where was the exposure that didn't
bloom the white? Where di you see a little texture in the white
towel? Once you find that...then you use WHITE as your exposure as
you know you can't go past 2.5 or two stops or whatever you
calibrate for. I shoot white in bright sunlight whenever I have to.
It's about knowing how far to push that white in digital without it
blooming. You never know until you test. Use UV filters to help
keep your whites from blooming. Trust me it helps in the blue
channel.

On the printing: The Plezo system seems to be the defacto standard
for B&W printing. Of course that makes one printer dedicated for
B&W. I have a 1280 so I can't speak about your 2200. I can speak
somewhat on inks.

I went through a series of threads all over the planet on inks. I
was looking for a CIS system. I spoke to many people, and some even
knew what they were talking about. One of the issues with pigment
inks is dmax as you might know. For that reason...I went with dye
based. Within the dye based 3rd party inks there is not much
selection in CIS system. Confused still I spoke to Drycreek photo
direct and this is what they said" After 100's of color profiles we
have built we feel the Media street plug and play inks offer the
best dmax." I believed them and have those inks in my 1280.

Profiles are as important as inks imho. Media street made my
profile for free and I get fine B&W prints with very very black
blacks. You might give them a call and see.

Joe

Paul_U · Jun 28, 2004

Hap Mullenneaux said:
Joe,
It makes sense to meter on white for digital since that is what
usually makes or breaks your exposure. Why didn't I think of that?

Yep.

Shooting digital is the same as shooting with Velvia slide film - same metering for highlights and same problems with high contrast scenes.

jl8327222304 · Jun 28, 2004

I didn't try other inks. I used Epson originals inks. I was also told that the media street plug and play inks were the closest match to the Epson's. Dry Creek told me that. I trust their judgment. I can say this, the inks I'm using now are as good as the Epson inks at 10th of the price. Dry creek told me they had profiled most if not all the MIS and Lyson inks and the Media street plug and play was the closets match to Epson's and without a doubt had the best Dmax. That sold me and I've been happy with them.

I don't do Plezo so I can't comment. Having a dedicated printer with 6 or seven shades of blacks makes sense for better B&W prints though.

What was the other question? Oh yes, why didn't I think of that. I'm not sure but I was taught that even in film. While many say meter for the shadows in film and close down two stops I was taught meter the white fluffy clouds and open 3 stops. You know when you think about it...you're really just setting your white point at the time of exposure and adjusting post process if needed.

Don't take that UV thing I said lightly. UV is recorded in the blue channel of RGB. Guess where whites are recorded? You got it. Simple test to confirm, shoot your white towel in sun, one with uv and one without. Look at both in the blue channel is CS. You will see the one without the UV closer to blowout than the one with the UV. Another thing you will notice, a shift FROM blue. That's the UV being killed. Shot with UV=slightly greener, without UV=bluer.

Of course nobody in their right mind would suggest shooting people in white in full sun even in film, much less digital, but it can be done "IF" you have the understanding and the control at exposure.

I thought this was a B&W thread.

Joe

Kraig · Jun 28, 2004

michel verlinden said:
I like b&w pictures myself, but I thought the s2 made good b&w
directly from the camera, so what's the advantage of conversion ,
except more work

Here is a link to the middle of a thread where we had a heated discussion about this.
http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1020&message=8091801

Kraig

MartyC · Jun 28, 2004

Same images from film camera scanned to CD playing using channels and 4 varing layers to change sky ratio:building:whiting the pillars:filter for edges

jl8327222304 · Jun 28, 2004

Really, this is not S2 specific so I'm not sure it goes here. I'll share what I've learned though.

If you go to the retouching forum and ask this question you will find that most there use either Digidan or TLR's version. You rarely hear of many others. You might also find that those in the retouching forum very attuned to color and gray scale. You may also find while most use DD and TLR they have adapted these converters to their own taste.

Personally, I use TLR's version but have added some features to it. I have tried many including writing my own and purchasing some but the only one in my actions palette is this one and it's free.

http://www.thelightsright.com/DigitalDarkroom/PhotoshopTools/TLRB&WConversion.htm

Kraig · Jun 28, 2004

Just Answering Michel’s question with an old post
Thanks for the link to “thelightsright”

K

Better B&W from S2

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