G1 has a 'built-in' telephoto

Chris Beney

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There is a built-in telephoto option on the G1 that doesn't seem ever to be mentioned on this Forum. Personally I use it a lot.

I refer to the fact that the resolution is so good that except where very large pictures are wanted then you can simply enlarge the relevant portion when printing. You can go way beyond a 1.5 zoom before the image goes significantly soft.

The other advantage of doing this is that you can chose the exact part of the picture that you want, something you can't do with full frame telephoto. In fact I have sometimes got two different prints out of one shot.

Of course you have to shoot at high resolution to enable this, but with memory prices now very low and MicroDrives not too bad, why waste a high quality camera on low res shots.

Chris Beney
 
Hi Chris,

You must be referring to "digital" zoom...yes? Actually, I do use this but not often enough, I must admit. Why? No reason...and actually the digital zoom is quite good. I own the B300 which is a 1.7x as you probably know. The advantage of a teleconveter lens is that it brings the object closer to begin with, then with the 2x digital zoom enabled... WOW!...346mm!

True that you can get a higher zoom just from using the 4x digital, but then noise comes into play, and so does perspective in terms of depth of field. Photos shot using digital vs optical have a different personallity when it comes to dof. Personally, I don't think digital zoom can ever beat optics, but this is not to say that good results can't be gotten with the digital. ;-)
regards..nahau
There is a built-in telephoto option on the G1 that doesn't seem
ever to be mentioned on this Forum. Personally I use it a lot.

I refer to the fact that the resolution is so good that except
where very large pictures are wanted then you can simply enlarge
the relevant portion when printing. You can go way beyond a 1.5
zoom before the image goes significantly soft.
The other advantage of doing this is that you can chose the exact
part of the picture that you want, something you can't do with full
frame telephoto. In fact I have sometimes got two different prints
out of one shot.
Of course you have to shoot at high resolution to enable this, but
with memory prices now very low and MicroDrives not too bad, why
waste a high quality camera on low res shots.

Chris Beney
 
No, Nahau, I was certainly not referring to digital zoom.

Digital zoom as I understand it takes pixels from a small area and blows them up so you only record that area. Whether it interpolates or not I do not know. But it seems to me you can just as well do this after taking non-zoomed shots (photopain or Corel or whatever), you only save memory.

I was talking about taking ordinary high resolution pictures and using only a smallish part of them, blown up. This is the same as zooming, perspective remains exactly the same as if you had zoomed. Depth of field may possibly change a bit but with small image chips even the f2.5 lens has great depth of field al long focal distances.

The Canon G1 has such good resolution that very often it is in excess of that actually needed. I was commenting that people who go on about 1.5 telephoto adaptors could in most cases just enlarge part of the photo and get as good or better results far more easily and cheaply.

Chris
There is a built-in telephoto option on the G1 that doesn't seem
ever to be mentioned on this Forum. Personally I use it a lot.

I refer to the fact that the resolution is so good that except
where very large pictures are wanted then you can simply enlarge
the relevant portion when printing. You can go way beyond a 1.5
zoom before the image goes significantly soft.
The other advantage of doing this is that you can chose the exact
part of the picture that you want, something you can't do with full
frame telephoto. In fact I have sometimes got two different prints
out of one shot.
Of course you have to shoot at high resolution to enable this, but
with memory prices now very low and MicroDrives not too bad, why
waste a high quality camera on low res shots.

Chris Beney
 
Chris Beney wrote:
No, Nahau, I was certainly not referring to digital zoom.
When you wrote "built-in", I assumed you were speaking about the digital zooming capabilities "inside" the G1!
Digital zoom as I understand it takes pixels from a small area and
blows them up so you only record that area. Whether it interpolates
or not I do not know. But it seems to me you can just as well do
this after taking non-zoomed shots (photopain or Corel or
whatever), you only save memory.
True, you can zoom by enlarging with software.
I was talking about taking ordinary high resolution pictures and
using only a smallish part of them, blown up. This is the same as
zooming, perspective remains exactly the same as if you had zoomed.
Depth of field may possibly change a bit but with small image chips
even the f2.5 lens has great depth of field al long focal distances.
The only thing about this theory is that you cannot "obtain" more or less dof that what you begin with. True that you can blow up your originals in software, but you lose in resolution...just as you would using digital zoom...you are blowing up pixels no matter how you look at it!
The Canon G1 has such good resolution that very often it is in
excess of that actually needed. I was commenting that people who go
on about 1.5 telephoto adaptors could in most cases just enlarge
part of the photo and get as good or better results far more easily
and cheaply.
I have to disagree, as you get what you pay for...and optics are always better than software manipulation. If you begin with 173mm shot of a subject, it will definetly be sharper than a 105mm subject blown up to 173mm equivalent.

This picture is a screen capture of the G1 with a B300 ( 173mm) compared to the G1 @ full tele (no B300). The full tele photo was then "zoomed" by software to closely match the B300 photo. Can you guess which side of the screen capture was the software enhanced photo?



regards..nahau
Chris
There is a built-in telephoto option on the G1 that doesn't seem
ever to be mentioned on this Forum. Personally I use it a lot.

I refer to the fact that the resolution is so good that except
where very large pictures are wanted then you can simply enlarge
the relevant portion when printing. You can go way beyond a 1.5
zoom before the image goes significantly soft.
The other advantage of doing this is that you can chose the exact
part of the picture that you want, something you can't do with full
frame telephoto. In fact I have sometimes got two different prints
out of one shot.
Of course you have to shoot at high resolution to enable this, but
with memory prices now very low and MicroDrives not too bad, why
waste a high quality camera on low res shots.

Chris Beney
 
Hi Nahau, how are you doing ?

interesting thread...

A couple of questions that are already mentioned in this thread:

1. small sensors such as the G1's have inherent noise... how does this interfere with magnification software, using Lanczos, B-spline or Fractal interpolation ? Would the noise be "smoothened"-out with the water-painterly effect that some of these interpolations generate ?

2. Lenses have resolution limitations, even when using only the central areas.. How does this compare with the error generated by Noise+software interpolation ?

3. What is better: the internal digital interpolation done by the G1 digital zoom option, or a software interpolation, such as those mentioned above ? Image quality question only: We understand the advantages of cropping and wider-frame visualization during shooting...

I have my own opinions here, but I'll be doind some tests when I get my camera back from the Canon Factory Service Center (a stupid stuck pixel..). If someone is kind enough to build on the tests already done in this thread and continue, that'll benefit almost everyone in this forum....

Thanks, nadim
 
Hi Nahau, how are you doing ?
Doing great Nadim...hope you're fine!
interesting thread...
yes, Mike Siesel should be here! I'm sure he would have fun!!
A couple of questions that are already mentioned in this thread:
1. small sensors such as the G1's have inherent noise... how does
this interfere with magnification software, using Lanczos, B-spline
or Fractal interpolation ? Would the noise be "smoothened"-out with
the water-painterly effect that some of these interpolations
generate ?
Actually, I don't have experience using GF and the sort. Too expensive for my meager needs, however, I would like to see it attempted by someone with the software.
2. Lenses have resolution limitations, even when using only the
central areas.. How does this compare with the error generated by
Noise+software interpolation ?
I would assume that software interpolation would not be able to "create" a better resolution given the starting point of what is "put" in, in any case.
3. What is better: the internal digital interpolation done by the
G1 digital zoom option, or a software interpolation, such as those
mentioned above ? Image quality question only: We understand the
advantages of cropping and wider-frame visualization during
shooting...
That is something I wondered myself since this thread started, hence the photo below.
I have my own opinions here, but I'll be doind some tests when I
get my camera back from the Canon Factory Service Center (a stupid
stuck pixel..). If someone is kind enough to build on the tests
already done in this thread and continue, that'll benefit almost
everyone in this forum....
This photo is another screen capture of the B300,(left), the G1@full tele zoomed to size (center), and the G1 full tele w/2x digital (right). Note that the 2x photo actually had to be reduced because it was larger to begin with than the 1.7x of the B300. Ref for the photos is 100% on the B300.
Will be eager to hear more input on this thread from anyone.
regard..nahau

 
Hey nahau,

the picture shows a magnification of 82% with the Photoeditor... do you confirm that you have similar artifacts when the zoom is at 100% with photoeditor ? even if the size is different than the B300 (1.7 times mag), it would be more consistent to keep it at 100%...

I really want my camera back from Canon.. I want to do similar test... your test seems to be in the right direction, though we cannot judge the difference in quality with the software you are using. Is it possible for you to download IrfanView, and resample with Lanczos (this is available freely on the internet)... but only if you have a couple of minutes of free time on your hand.
Thanks a million,
nadim
 
Hi Nadim,

Will do! I do have IrfanView and so I will try it. Note that I only used photo editor after downloading via PSP7. It's quicker to launch Photoeditor than PSP7 and less hassle to work with it resizing and junk. As stated, 82% on the 2x digital was used because the original (@100%)is larger to begin with than the B300 photo. I wanted to keep the size of the photos relatively the same to show what would happen when you try to bring other photos to a relative 100% size of the B300. Will try Irfanview...then post. May take a while.
nahau
Hey nahau,
the picture shows a magnification of 82% with the Photoeditor... do
you confirm that you have similar artifacts when the zoom is at
100% with photoeditor ? even if the size is different than the B300
(1.7 times mag), it would be more consistent to keep it at 100%...
I really want my camera back from Canon.. I want to do similar
test... your test seems to be in the right direction, though we
cannot judge the difference in quality with the software you are
using. Is it possible for you to download IrfanView, and resample
with Lanczos (this is available freely on the internet)... but only
if you have a couple of minutes of free time on your hand.
Thanks a million,
nadim
 
I am trying to think of this logically. The whole excerise is to try to figure out if software can somehow bring a photo up to par with hardware (ie optical lens) and be shown in similar size. For the life of me, I must be missing something!

If I resize the other photos to match the "view size" of the B300 photo, then regardless of what I do, they will still be noisier than the B300 due to software interpolation vs optical clarity. Is this not so?

You must have something on your mind that is beyond me! ;-). In any case, I will upload the three photos at high resolution tomorrow morning from a T1 connection. If I try to do it from home, I will have to stay up until tomorrow "night"!! LOL! Yes, I am on a 56k modem. I will link them in the morning and would be interested to see if you can manipulate them to what is on "your" mind. I will post the links in this thread.
nahau
Hey nahau,
the picture shows a magnification of 82% with the Photoeditor... do
you confirm that you have similar artifacts when the zoom is at
100% with photoeditor ? even if the size is different than the B300
(1.7 times mag), it would be more consistent to keep it at 100%...
I really want my camera back from Canon.. I want to do similar
test... your test seems to be in the right direction, though we
cannot judge the difference in quality with the software you are
using. Is it possible for you to download IrfanView, and resample
with Lanczos (this is available freely on the internet)... but only
if you have a couple of minutes of free time on your hand.
Thanks a million,
nadim
 
Hello Nahau,

Since you have so much time on your hands I've nominated you for the webmaster of the Canoneers!!!

But that's another post.

Phil Askey has given his thoughts on digital zoom, and believes that cameras in the 3 mp range (all same chip) use bicubic interpolation just as photoshop and others do.

So using Lanczos or B-spline might offer an advantage, though I've not made the comparison. I have seen posts on robgalbraith.com about upsampling with genuine fractals and downsampling with IrfanView, so at least some people believe that B-spline offers better results in those circumstances.

I think Qimage uses the Lanczos. Someone claimed it was better than genuine fractals. So this suggests that several comparisons might be in order.

I might suggest that different images might allow for a better comparison. Something with straight lines and curves, maybe text, like a storefront window.

ms
 
Hello Nahau,
Hi Mike
Since you have so much time on your hands I've nominated you for
the webmaster of the Canoneers!!!
Yah right! As if I would need this kind of headache!! Look what's going on with this "Not Pekka" dude...and Frances!!!
But that's another post.

Phil Askey has given his thoughts on digital zoom, and believes
that cameras in the 3 mp range (all same chip) use bicubic
interpolation just as photoshop and others do.

So using Lanczos or B-spline might offer an advantage, though I've
not made the comparison. I have seen posts on robgalbraith.com
about upsampling with genuine fractals and downsampling with
IrfanView, so at least some people believe that B-spline offers
better results in those circumstances.

I think Qimage uses the Lanczos. Someone claimed it was better
than genuine fractals. So this suggests that several comparisons
might be in order.

I might suggest that different images might allow for a better
comparison. Something with straight lines and curves, maybe text,
like a storefront window.
The pictures were just to illustrate that I believe optics are always better than software manipulation. I mean, what goes in must come out! In any case, I will post the photos for Nadim to see what he wants to do with them. It should be interesting! ;-) Take care.
nahau
 
After reading some of the posts in this thread, I feel inclined to describe the reason why it is impossible to achieve the same results by digitally zooming and optical zoom. If you are already familiar with these reasons, just skip this part of this message.

---

While it IS true that because of the resolution of the G1 and other cameras, you have more detail to crop and you can blow that detail up, it is NOT possible to recover information not captured by the sensor of the camera with software.

Many sci-fi television shows have the scene (and we've all seen it), where they are standing around a TV screen and you can't tell jack about what's on the screen, etc. Then the technician plays with a computer and BOOM. Sharp, in focus, and color picture fades in on the TV. How did that magician pull it off? They took a good image, and made it really bad... just in reverse, so that you see a bad image made really good.

I will give an easy explanation. Say I use an 8x teleconverter (I have such a device: the Kenko 8x32 monocular. It's excellent... And I take a picture through it, at full tele (my camera, the PS S20 has a 32-64mm range, so say 512mm, and I do have to focus the device through the LCD viewfinder.) The optics transforms the image 8x closer, and then the 3.14 million sensors record that data. Now, pretend that zoom is a 9x zoom, because 9 = 3^2. For every pixel of data captured, at 1x zoom, you get 9 at 9x zoom. So, say that I just res an image up by 3x3 using some software technique.

When comparing this software zoomed image to the optical 9x zoom, you will notice that the optical zoom image actually measured the light at the individual locations whereas the software zoom created data in between the measured values. The data may be quite convincing or pleasing (especially if the algorithm was designed well), but the extra data will never substitute for real data.
---

I have two additional points to make, that those of you who already knew all of the above might find interesting/useful.

1)

You have a 3.3MP camera. Congratulations. When you take a picture a matrix of 2048x1536 Charge Coupled Devices (sensors) measure the light transmitted through a lense, color filter, IR-cut filter, and perhaps a "microlense". Each sensor is attached to a Analog to Digital Converter (either directly or through it's neighbor, but how it is connected is not as important as that it is connected). The ADCs measure the magnitude of the charge with some precision to some number of Binary digITs (BITs). Ok, now after all that has happened, we get to the important part: Your camera (your computer does this part if you shoot RAW, which is why it is better to shoot RAW) takes every four sensor values, throws away some data (applies exposure/reduces to 8 bits per color channel), combines the colors to form one pixel (you lose 4x resolution in this process, sacrificing color for resolution. Your 3.14MP B&W sensor array just became 0.7MP... Color), and goes through a process of throwing away more data (JPEG compression).

Now, how again, do we get the 3.14MP Color image out of the camera? You guessed it, that 4x throw away process is a little bit trickier than just throw away the data... You take the neighboring pixels, and merge them... This leaves us with another problem that us Computer Graphics people call Aliasing. I call it "color aliasing". Because you are aliasing the color with pixels. Digital Cameras like to fix this by filtering the image with some amount of gaussian blur.

This works well enough, but take a picture of a sharp contrasty edge and sharpen it a little and you will see the colors separate along the edge. You will see this under the microscope (zoom to actual pixels), however, and as you down-sample the image to, say, 0.7 MP (1024x768 is pretty much full screen at 72 DPI), you will note that these color aliasing problems go away. Note that you tend to get the worst aliasing in high contrast detail, and in less detailed areas of the image, the digital camera trick works well enough.

So the point that I want to make is that your 1024x768 is actually closer to the real fidelity of your camera. Note that JPEG compression also does some amount of data trashing, so it is better to use full res and JPEG or RAW than 1/4, if you can afford the storage (and storage is cheap these days).

Some people give Fuji cameras a hard time because their interpolation algorithm/sensor placement is a bit more agressive than the typical, but it seems to work well, only it produces more color aliasing artifacts (Phil calls it "hair moire").
(see middle of page http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/fujis1pro/page13.asp )

A company called Foveon ( http://www.foveon.net/ ) uses 3 sensors and a prism instead of interpolation, to take a 4MP image with 12 Million Sensors.

2)

So the camera you bought has a little bit of tendency to separate colors by location of the sensor over the filters. Big deal. It's 3 million pixels (pixel is short for picture element). Well, at 1024x768, 72DPI, your image prints to something on the order of 14" x 11". Take your 3.3MP image of a good subject. The fact that you have the color aliasing problem is usually compensated for enough by the anti-aliasing filter in your camera (microlenses help too), the JPEG algorithm helps a little, as does the in camera processing, and then when you get to the technology for actually printing, a quality printer at something like 3600 Dots Per Inch (DPI) will actually put a pattern of ink blots on the paper so that when you look at the page, a pixel is defined by an area of the page. The ink blots themselves are too small to see, and the borders of the ink blots are not well defined enough to define a pixel. So a pixel blends with its neighbors. This (dithering) is a good form of anti-aliasing. and you will only be able to see it with magnification.

So go ahead, crop and print your pictures out at 70-200DPI (dithered on a much higher DPI printer, and preferably one with a 6-color process because it does make a difference) from a 3.3MP camera. You'll get your money's worth. Just take my word for it that a 600x400 crop from a 3.3MP image is not going to look nearly as good at 6"x4" as the 2000x1500 shot at 6"x4". Getting that little piece of glass or big piece of glass makes that much difference. I'm quite glad I bought an 8x zoom adapter. I'll post a few shots when I get back from Seattle with my new toy...

I hope this helps.
There is a built-in telephoto option on the G1 that doesn't seem
ever to be mentioned on this Forum. Personally I use it a lot.

I refer to the fact that the resolution is so good that except
where very large pictures are wanted then you can simply enlarge
the relevant portion when printing. You can go way beyond a 1.5
zoom before the image goes significantly soft.
The other advantage of doing this is that you can chose the exact
part of the picture that you want, something you can't do with full
frame telephoto. In fact I have sometimes got two different prints
out of one shot.
Of course you have to shoot at high resolution to enable this, but
with memory prices now very low and MicroDrives not too bad, why
waste a high quality camera on low res shots.

Chris Beney
 
This thread which I started has taken some interesting twists and turns and may develop further, I think one or two of the technical 'facts' are not quite as certain as made out.

But it may just be worth be repeating that the G1 has a resolution that is sometimes well in excess of what is needed for smaller prints and this gives a sort of telephoto for free. My old Minolta SLR APS could do it too, but the results were not as good.
Chris
There is a built-in telephoto option on the G1 that doesn't seem
ever to be mentioned on this Forum. Personally I use it a lot.

I refer to the fact that the resolution is so good that except
where very large pictures are wanted then you can simply enlarge
the relevant portion when printing. You can go way beyond a 1.5
zoom before the image goes significantly soft.
The other advantage of doing this is that you can chose the exact
part of the picture that you want, something you can't do with full
frame telephoto. In fact I have sometimes got two different prints
out of one shot.
Of course you have to shoot at high resolution to enable this, but
with memory prices now very low and MicroDrives not too bad, why
waste a high quality camera on low res shots.

Chris Beney
 
Would like to add some thing here. When you digitally zoom 2x at 1024x768 setting there is no picture loss. Which will make your camera a 6x Optical Zoom camera at 1 Megapixel. Isn't that nice.
There is a built-in telephoto option on the G1 that doesn't seem
ever to be mentioned on this Forum. Personally I use it a lot.

I refer to the fact that the resolution is so good that except
where very large pictures are wanted then you can simply enlarge
the relevant portion when printing. You can go way beyond a 1.5
zoom before the image goes significantly soft.
The other advantage of doing this is that you can chose the exact
part of the picture that you want, something you can't do with full
frame telephoto. In fact I have sometimes got two different prints
out of one shot.
Of course you have to shoot at high resolution to enable this, but
with memory prices now very low and MicroDrives not too bad, why
waste a high quality camera on low res shots.

Chris Beney
 
Something wrong there, Samath, or were you teasing? If you weren't teasing then I would say that digital zoom doesn't give you any more focal length or detail or anything that you can't get by simply using maximum resolution. All it does is save memory. I am not sure if digital zoom performs a resolution raising algorithm, but if it does it can of course be done on the high resolution sample in Photoshop (or in my case Corel PhotoPaint) just as well.
There is a built-in telephoto option on the G1 that doesn't seem
ever to be mentioned on this Forum. Personally I use it a lot.

I refer to the fact that the resolution is so good that except
where very large pictures are wanted then you can simply enlarge
the relevant portion when printing. You can go way beyond a 1.5
zoom before the image goes significantly soft.
The other advantage of doing this is that you can chose the exact
part of the picture that you want, something you can't do with full
frame telephoto. In fact I have sometimes got two different prints
out of one shot.
Of course you have to shoot at high resolution to enable this, but
with memory prices now very low and MicroDrives not too bad, why
waste a high quality camera on low res shots.

Chris Beney
 

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