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1DMKII: the Japanese r sticking it to us!

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I totally agree !
I do not really see anything that humourous in this thread.
cspak said:
baruth said:
Some are taking it hard about my thread. No, I am not serious about
the comparison. If some one doesn't find it funny, so bad. But than
we don't really need any real bad blood around here. "can we get
along?" Any bad remark is uncalled for.
Click to expand...
But don't you think your remarks in and of themselves are bad
remarks? Covering them under the blanket of "humor" doesn't make
it any less so.

To be honest, I'm not Japanese, but am Asian and when i read it...
unfortunately it comes across as ignorant and borderline racist.

Regards...
cspak said:
baruth said:
There is a long thread about the MKII buttons, that require 10
fingers to push at the same time to operate. It is so highly
controversial. TWo camps : red and blue. one critique the other
worship whatever in this machine.
I want to reboot and brainstorm in different but more fundamental
aspect of the construction of this remarkable camera.
Why did Canon build MKII the way they did. They can do it so easy
to operate as Toyata build Lexus. Sophisticated, powerful and yet
so smooth and one can drive it while sleeping and still arrive
safely home.
But the Japanese have competition as far as cars are concerned: the
Germans. So they have to do what we Americans like: soothing
smoothness. Not so with Cameras.
Here in the world of photography, the Kingdom of the Sun, that is.
The Japanese totally dominate the market. The Americans own the
Golden Arches of MCDonald. They push grease and fries down people's
throat around the world. The weird thing is; Around the world
people love American for this "healthy food."
Now the Japanese are sticking it to us. They love things the hard
way. It is the pain just to see them using all the energy to speak.
They said: you want our cameras? you operate the hard way we love:
use all your ten fingers and maybe you teeth . You have no choice.
And they are right, we have no choice. Some of us already are
assimilated to the Japanese culture: they love all the buttons of
MKII and want even more.
--
http://www.lightmagical.fotopic.net/
Winds my breaths, Sun my eyes, Sky my open mind.
Baruth
Click to expand...
--
http://www.lightmagical.fotopic.net/
Winds my breaths, Sun my eyes, Sky my open mind.
Baruth
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
 
In case you didn't notice the Mk II has exactly the same interface as the other 1 series cameras that we have been using for many years and that we are all happy with. If you don't like it then go back to your 10D or whatever it was you shot before ....
baruth said:
\--
Click to expand...
'Stop it now or you will go blind'
 
That is no way to improve things unless you think that this camera is the ultimate, nothing left ever to improve. If you happen to agree that there is room to improve any product, then a disscussion is in order. You may not agree with others as others may disagree with you, but to tell people to "go back" is for sure not the way. The reason I bought this camera is because I like it more than any others. Do i think that it is a perfect one? no. so I would like the maker to improve it THE WAY I LIKE, noW you don't agree with me, that is fine. I don't tell you to shut up. Good to hear different opinions.
Paul Pope said:
baruth said:
\--
Click to expand...
'Stop it now or you will go blind'
Click to expand...
--
http://www.lightmagical.fotopic.net/
Winds my breaths, Sun my eyes, Sky my open mind.
Baruth
 
baruth said:
Some are taking it hard about my thread. No, I am not serious about
the comparison. If some one doesn't find it funny, so bad. But than
we don't really need any real bad blood around here. "can we get
along?" Any bad remark is uncalled for.
Click to expand...
I think, baruth, you really should try to find a new hobby or something.
The photography hobby thing is fine, but the "starting new threads"
hobby seems to be going somewhat badly.

I've suspected this since you started your "1DMKII: a flawed giant"
thread, thought it again when you asked the forum, ""1DMKII: why
not 2 SD???" ... and now this.

These threads are soaking up all your time, and it seems like a waste
of your own time, in my opinion.
 
How is it that McDonalds is stuffing fried food down our throats. I am under the impression that I willingly walk into the restaurant myself and make the purchase, I may even pass bye a salad bar on my way there.
Oh, I get it, you are one of those lefty anti corporate michael moore types.

What a stupid post you started
baruth said:
There is a long thread about the MKII buttons, that require 10
fingers to push at the same time to operate. It is so highly
controversial. TWo camps : red and blue. one critique the other
worship whatever in this machine.
I want to reboot and brainstorm in different but more fundamental
aspect of the construction of this remarkable camera.
Why did Canon build MKII the way they did. They can do it so easy
to operate as Toyata build Lexus. Sophisticated, powerful and yet
so smooth and one can drive it while sleeping and still arrive
safely home.
But the Japanese have competition as far as cars are concerned: the
Germans. So they have to do what we Americans like: soothing
smoothness. Not so with Cameras.
Here in the world of photography, the Kingdom of the Sun, that is.
The Japanese totally dominate the market. The Americans own the
Golden Arches of MCDonald. They push grease and fries down people's
throat around the world. The weird thing is; Around the world
people love American for this "healthy food."
Now the Japanese are sticking it to us. They love things the hard
way. It is the pain just to see them using all the energy to speak.
They said: you want our cameras? you operate the hard way we love:
use all your ten fingers and maybe you teeth . You have no choice.
And they are right, we have no choice. Some of us already are
assimilated to the Japanese culture: they love all the buttons of
MKII and want even more.
--
http://www.lightmagical.fotopic.net/
Winds my breaths, Sun my eyes, Sky my open mind.
Baruth
Click to expand...
 
An amateur coming directly into this camera as his first "1" body would definitely feel this way.

But a pro that has the 1D, 1Ds, 1V and has some or all of the bodies will not agree with your perspective.

You need to be more than self centered when reviewing your feelings about the layout of a camera because it isn't all about you. In the professional world, it is expected for the camera bodies to follow in form with the previous bodies and not roam far at all from the established layout. If you have a body or 2 hanging around your neck and you add the new pro series Canon (the MKII) it had better be the same and function the same or Canon would be the laughing stock of the professional world.

Now, a lot of amateur photographers who have maybe too much money decided to wade in and buy the newest and coolest camera for themselves and bring in their own set of rules. Why isn't it like the 10D? The 10D has a more refined functionality why didn't they do it like the 10D? Why do you need to push 2 buttons to accomplish something simple? It's all about ME, why didn't they make it easier for ME?

It follows the pattern that the entire 1 series cameras use. A pro that is already using one of the "1" series cameras can add this one and not have 3 different bodies with 3 different operating procedures. Large newsrooms or magazines can add bodies to their inventory for their photographers to use and the photographers can use any of them without skipping a beat.

I have said it before, the MKII is way more camera than most of their buyers need. The camera for the mass market is probably the 10D update that is coming, whether it is the 10D MKII or the 3D, it is probably what most of the people are wanting. The MKII is a big mistake for consumer market as the camera is tied to conforming to it's past brothers while at the same time making heavy duty advances in quality of picture.

So the cries of buttons and such are from people buying the camera to hang around their necks and take nice art pictures with, when the camera is intended for the heavy duty industrial market. It isn't a toy, yet is sounds like children complaining from a lot of users. The 2 button system is not bad at all after you use it for a week or two. Even though it is more cumbersome, it falls quickly into an easy workflow system of the camera even blindfolded which says a lot about a layout that is many years old.

Peter Gregg
baruth said:
There is a long thread about the MKII buttons, that require 10
fingers to push at the same time to operate. It is so highly
controversial. TWo camps : red and blue. one critique the other
worship whatever in this machine.
I want to reboot and brainstorm in different but more fundamental
aspect of the construction of this remarkable camera.
Why did Canon build MKII the way they did. They can do it so easy
to operate as Toyata build Lexus. Sophisticated, powerful and yet
so smooth and one can drive it while sleeping and still arrive
safely home.
But the Japanese have competition as far as cars are concerned: the
Germans. So they have to do what we Americans like: soothing
smoothness. Not so with Cameras.
Here in the world of photography, the Kingdom of the Sun, that is.
The Japanese totally dominate the market. The Americans own the
Golden Arches of MCDonald. They push grease and fries down people's
throat around the world. The weird thing is; Around the world
people love American for this "healthy food."
Now the Japanese are sticking it to us. They love things the hard
way. It is the pain just to see them using all the energy to speak.
They said: you want our cameras? you operate the hard way we love:
use all your ten fingers and maybe you teeth . You have no choice.
And they are right, we have no choice. Some of us already are
assimilated to the Japanese culture: they love all the buttons of
MKII and want even more.
--
http://www.lightmagical.fotopic.net/
Winds my breaths, Sun my eyes, Sky my open mind.
Baruth
Click to expand...
 
But I do admire those that can work the 1D finger gymnastics. I suspect those who have never used another brand but Canon and especially the 1 series will have adepted very well to the finger yoga and probably became second nature too. I also suspect that those who find touch typing easy to learn can also learn the 1D easily. We humans are so adaptive. Put you in water today and you'll drown. Give you a million years in water and you'll grow gills and fins.

The 1-series is easy to learn. The button combinations are clearly marked and should pose no problems even for a 5 year old. But when the situation becomes hectic my old brain freezes and my fingers get tied into a knot and the 1D becomes a useless piece of thechnology in my hands! I've never been able to touch type in all my years by the way.

Do I like the 1DMKII? Yes, it is currently the best DSLR money can buy and No, it has a terrible user interface second only to the Nikon F70 film camera(not the D70).

If Lexus can force Mercedes to buck up then the only hope we have is Nikon. But until they can bring out a better D2 the 1DMKII is king like it or not.
baruth said:
There is a long thread about the MKII buttons, that require 10
fingers to push at the same time to operate. It is so highly
controversial. TWo camps : red and blue. one critique the other
worship whatever in this machine.
I want to reboot and brainstorm in different but more fundamental
aspect of the construction of this remarkable camera.
Why did Canon build MKII the way they did. They can do it so easy
to operate as Toyata build Lexus. Sophisticated, powerful and yet
so smooth and one can drive it while sleeping and still arrive
safely home.
But the Japanese have competition as far as cars are concerned: the
Germans. So they have to do what we Americans like: soothing
smoothness. Not so with Cameras.
Here in the world of photography, the Kingdom of the Sun, that is.
The Japanese totally dominate the market. The Americans own the
Golden Arches of MCDonald. They push grease and fries down people's
throat around the world. The weird thing is; Around the world
people love American for this "healthy food."
Now the Japanese are sticking it to us. They love things the hard
way. It is the pain just to see them using all the energy to speak.
They said: you want our cameras? you operate the hard way we love:
use all your ten fingers and maybe you teeth . You have no choice.
And they are right, we have no choice. Some of us already are
assimilated to the Japanese culture: they love all the buttons of
MKII and want even more.
--
http://www.lightmagical.fotopic.net/
Winds my breaths, Sun my eyes, Sky my open mind.
Baruth
Click to expand...
 
greentoe said:
BTW, I don't prefer my cars to be too smooth, it isolates the
driver from the reality of the physical space around them. Give
me an old BMW over a Lexus any day....

-gt
Click to expand...
Yup, a BMW2002tii or a Porsche 911s man! Never let your car drive you.
 
You'll love the A3XX then! But be warned it will think you're trying to land if you fly too low and overide that joystick control of yours ;) Me, i'll stick to 747 any day.
Patricia said:
I was prepared for some major adjustment to the differences between
a pro body and the 10D buttons/functions. However, I find that I
prefer the setup on the MKII which many times has prevented me from
unintentionally changing settings and not realizing it until too
late to reshoot. (I did this too many times with the 10D to count)

Now, if I can only memorize all the CF functions....

-Patricia

1D MkII, 10D
Click to expand...
 
if you have Num Lock on. :-)
Dioni said:
Teski said:
Man...I have to use 3 fingers to hit Ctrl+Alt+Delete! :-)

Teski
Click to expand...
Hey, I had to build myself a tool to do that correctly:



Best,
Dioni
Things should be as simple as possible, but not simpler (Albert
Einstein)
Click to expand...
--

I don't mean to offend, but if you are offended, then either I've overdone it, or, maybe you're too sensitive.
 
Not true. I use a ergonomic keyboard where the keys are remapped.



I can hit control-alt-delete combo with my left thumb!

Once you get used to the weird layout, you don't want to type on regular keyboard again.
Teski said:
Teski
Dioni said:
baruth said:
Now the Japanese are sticking it to us. They love things the hard
way. It is the pain just to see them using all the energy to speak.
They said: you want our cameras? you operate the hard way we love:
use all your ten fingers and maybe you teeth .
Click to expand...
Damn, I was wondering why my keyboard is so complex. It's probably
a Japanese design, even though it says Microsoft on top of it.

--
Best,
Dioni
Things should be as simple as possible, but not simpler (Albert
Einstein)
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
 
baruth said:
There is a long thread about the MKII buttons, that require 10
fingers to push at the same time to operate. It is so highly
controversial. TWo camps : red and blue. one critique the other
worship whatever in this machine.
I want to reboot and brainstorm in different but more fundamental
aspect of the construction of this remarkable camera.
Why did Canon build MKII the way they did. They can do it so easy
to operate as Toyata build Lexus. Sophisticated, powerful and yet
so smooth and one can drive it while sleeping and still arrive
safely home.
But the Japanese have competition as far as cars are concerned: the
Germans. So they have to do what we Americans like: soothing
smoothness. Not so with Cameras.
Here in the world of photography, the Kingdom of the Sun, that is.
The Japanese totally dominate the market. The Americans own the
Golden Arches of MCDonald. They push grease and fries down people's
throat around the world. The weird thing is; Around the world
people love American for this "healthy food."
Now the Japanese are sticking it to us. They love things the hard
way. It is the pain just to see them using all the energy to speak.
They said: you want our cameras? you operate the hard way we love:
use all your ten fingers and maybe you teeth . You have no choice.
And they are right, we have no choice. Some of us already are
assimilated to the Japanese culture: they love all the buttons of
MKII and want even more.
--
http://www.lightmagical.fotopic.net/
Winds my breaths, Sun my eyes, Sky my open mind.
Baruth
Click to expand...
Another major advantage of the small buttons is that the 1 series cameras are watersealed - sort of. It is almost impossible to achieve that with the big knobs of say an Elan. You can buy a plastic cover that fits exactly over this buttons so that you can still operate them and it prevents water to drip in.

The 1 series cameras are pro cameras that are supposed to be useable in all kinds of weatherconditions.
 
Another major advantage of the small buttons is that the 1 series cameras are watersealed - sort of. It is almost impossible to achieve that with the big knobs of say an Elan. You can buy a plastic cover that fits exactly over this buttons so that you can still operate them and it prevents water to drip in.

The 1 series cameras are pro cameras that are supposed to be used in all kinds of weatherconditions.
 
I don't think that many pros who have used 1-series cameras for years would be upset if they didn't have to hold down the select button while chimping.

I don't think Canon should lightly change the 1 series bodies -- but I don't think they should leave them set in concrete, either. For the long haul, I think it's better to make many small changes over the life of a body than to one day decide to make an entirely new 1-series body and interface (which may be the route Canon is taking).
Ken

\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\
Peter Gregg said:
But a pro that has the 1D, 1Ds, 1V and has some or all of the
bodies will not agree with your perspective.

You need to be more than self centered when reviewing your feelings
about the layout of a camera because it isn't all about you. In the
professional world, it is expected for the camera bodies to follow
in form with the previous bodies and not roam far at all from the
established layout. If you have a body or 2 hanging around your
neck and you add the new pro series Canon (the MKII) it had better
be the same and function the same or Canon would be the laughing
stock of the professional world.

Now, a lot of amateur photographers who have maybe too much money
decided to wade in and buy the newest and coolest camera for
themselves and bring in their own set of rules. Why isn't it like
the 10D? The 10D has a more refined functionality why didn't they
do it like the 10D? Why do you need to push 2 buttons to accomplish
something simple? It's all about ME, why didn't they make it easier
for ME?

It follows the pattern that the entire 1 series cameras use. A pro
that is already using one of the "1" series cameras can add this
one and not have 3 different bodies with 3 different operating
procedures. Large newsrooms or magazines can add bodies to their
inventory for their photographers to use and the photographers can
use any of them without skipping a beat.

I have said it before, the MKII is way more camera than most of
their buyers need. The camera for the mass market is probably the
10D update that is coming, whether it is the 10D MKII or the 3D, it
is probably what most of the people are wanting. The MKII is a big
mistake for consumer market as the camera is tied to conforming to
it's past brothers while at the same time making heavy duty
advances in quality of picture.

So the cries of buttons and such are from people buying the camera
to hang around their necks and take nice art pictures with, when
the camera is intended for the heavy duty industrial market. It
isn't a toy, yet is sounds like children complaining from a lot of
users. The 2 button system is not bad at all after you use it for a
week or two. Even though it is more cumbersome, it falls quickly
into an easy workflow system of the camera even blindfolded which
says a lot about a layout that is many years old.

Peter Gregg
baruth said:
There is a long thread about the MKII buttons, that require 10
fingers to push at the same time to operate. It is so highly
controversial. TWo camps : red and blue. one critique the other
worship whatever in this machine.
I want to reboot and brainstorm in different but more fundamental
aspect of the construction of this remarkable camera.
Why did Canon build MKII the way they did. They can do it so easy
to operate as Toyata build Lexus. Sophisticated, powerful and yet
so smooth and one can drive it while sleeping and still arrive
safely home.
But the Japanese have competition as far as cars are concerned: the
Germans. So they have to do what we Americans like: soothing
smoothness. Not so with Cameras.
Here in the world of photography, the Kingdom of the Sun, that is.
The Japanese totally dominate the market. The Americans own the
Golden Arches of MCDonald. They push grease and fries down people's
throat around the world. The weird thing is; Around the world
people love American for this "healthy food."
Now the Japanese are sticking it to us. They love things the hard
way. It is the pain just to see them using all the energy to speak.
They said: you want our cameras? you operate the hard way we love:
use all your ten fingers and maybe you teeth . You have no choice.
And they are right, we have no choice. Some of us already are
assimilated to the Japanese culture: they love all the buttons of
MKII and want even more.
--
http://www.lightmagical.fotopic.net/
Winds my breaths, Sun my eyes, Sky my open mind.
Baruth
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
--
http://www.ksgraphicart.com
http://www.pdmsteel.com
 
Peter,
Two issues here:

1--No need to separate pros and non pros. The pros are the ones who have to make a living out of photography, They are not necessary better than non pros. I bet Canon sells a lot MORE of this camera to non pro than to pro.

2_ I don't make this remark because I can't operate it. Just after few days of ownership of this camera, I bet I understand and can operate it better than few pros. The question here is why it is uncessary complicate? It doesn't need to be. Any product if possible needs to be user friendly.
Peter Gregg said:
But a pro that has the 1D, 1Ds, 1V and has some or all of the
bodies will not agree with your perspective.

You need to be more than self centered when reviewing your feelings
about the layout of a camera because it isn't all about you. In the
professional world, it is expected for the camera bodies to follow
in form with the previous bodies and not roam far at all from the
established layout. If you have a body or 2 hanging around your
neck and you add the new pro series Canon (the MKII) it had better
be the same and function the same or Canon would be the laughing
stock of the professional world.

Now, a lot of amateur photographers who have maybe too much money
decided to wade in and buy the newest and coolest camera for
themselves and bring in their own set of rules. Why isn't it like
the 10D? The 10D has a more refined functionality why didn't they
do it like the 10D? Why do you need to push 2 buttons to accomplish
something simple? It's all about ME, why didn't they make it easier
for ME?

It follows the pattern that the entire 1 series cameras use. A pro
that is already using one of the "1" series cameras can add this
one and not have 3 different bodies with 3 different operating
procedures. Large newsrooms or magazines can add bodies to their
inventory for their photographers to use and the photographers can
use any of them without skipping a beat.

I have said it before, the MKII is way more camera than most of
their buyers need. The camera for the mass market is probably the
10D update that is coming, whether it is the 10D MKII or the 3D, it
is probably what most of the people are wanting. The MKII is a big
mistake for consumer market as the camera is tied to conforming to
it's past brothers while at the same time making heavy duty
advances in quality of picture.

So the cries of buttons and such are from people buying the camera
to hang around their necks and take nice art pictures with, when
the camera is intended for the heavy duty industrial market. It
isn't a toy, yet is sounds like children complaining from a lot of
users. The 2 button system is not bad at all after you use it for a
week or two. Even though it is more cumbersome, it falls quickly
into an easy workflow system of the camera even blindfolded which
says a lot about a layout that is many years old.

Peter Gregg
baruth said:
There is a long thread about the MKII buttons, that require 10
fingers to push at the same time to operate. It is so highly
controversial. TWo camps : red and blue. one critique the other
worship whatever in this machine.
I want to reboot and brainstorm in different but more fundamental
aspect of the construction of this remarkable camera.
Why did Canon build MKII the way they did. They can do it so easy
to operate as Toyata build Lexus. Sophisticated, powerful and yet
so smooth and one can drive it while sleeping and still arrive
safely home.
But the Japanese have competition as far as cars are concerned: the
Germans. So they have to do what we Americans like: soothing
smoothness. Not so with Cameras.
Here in the world of photography, the Kingdom of the Sun, that is.
The Japanese totally dominate the market. The Americans own the
Golden Arches of MCDonald. They push grease and fries down people's
throat around the world. The weird thing is; Around the world
people love American for this "healthy food."
Now the Japanese are sticking it to us. They love things the hard
way. It is the pain just to see them using all the energy to speak.
They said: you want our cameras? you operate the hard way we love:
use all your ten fingers and maybe you teeth . You have no choice.
And they are right, we have no choice. Some of us already are
assimilated to the Japanese culture: they love all the buttons of
MKII and want even more.
--
http://www.lightmagical.fotopic.net/
Winds my breaths, Sun my eyes, Sky my open mind.
Baruth
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
--
http://www.lightmagical.fotopic.net/
Winds my breaths, Sun my eyes, Sky my open mind.
Baruth
 
I especially like the illuminated command dial, but where's the "clear credit" button ? It's a must for any Canon owner.
--
I have a white lens (thanks to Tippex !)
 
The point here is to highlight the poor design of 1DMKII as far as the numerous buttons are concerned. Nothing against the Japanese. As I wrote:

Canon can do it if they just wanted to. The catchy title of the thread is just that: catchy, it isn't meant to be taken litterally.
Jack Young said:
the minolta 9, or even nikon, you don't need all the fingers to op.
oh, maybe their makers are not japanese!

--
'Read ten thousands books, travel ten thousands miles.' - Confucius

http://www.jackzyoung.com
Click to expand...
--
http://www.lightmagical.fotopic.net/
Winds my breaths, Sun my eyes, Sky my open mind.
Baruth
 
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